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 azreal13 wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Didn't GW have a representative posting on Dakka back around 2012ish. What ever happened to him/them/it?

They were to linked with recruitment specifically.

We frightened them off.

And people wonder why they don't bother trying to reach out to the community. Seriously, the guy on Warseer posting was getting hounded by people about his salary, like they were entitled to know the full list of his benefits beyond his base pay, to the point he just stopped addressing them. If people are willing to give some random dude just trying to answer questions such a hard time why the feth would GW proper ever try to engage the community(outside Facebook)? There may have been a point when they could have turned it around by engaging people online, but at this point there are so many bitter people and people holding grudges, they would never stand a chance of gaining ground. I'm not defending some of the ridiculous things they have done as a company, but they clearly do not care to look for feedback on how their company is run.

I feel like we made contact with an alien race.

But seriously, he makes a fair point about the possibility of a healthy company. GW products seem to be the best seller at his store.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Hey guys, please bring back Epic, Necromunda, Warmaster, Mordheim, release that Inquisitor game and bring back good White Dwarf kthx bye.


Yeah, that should do the job.

I'd like to see Necromunda make a return. However they'll have to go back a few years for "good White Dwarf." They probably don't remember what that is.

 WarAngel wrote:
However they'll have to go back a few years for "good White Dwarf." They probably don't remember what that is.

To be fair, they may not remember what Necromunda is either.

I worked for GW and made $16 an hour 2010 to 2012. It was fairly close to the bottom of their pay scale. I haven't found any retail that pays close to that since. If you add in their medical and other benefits you find that they pay really well. All of this is compared to other retail. Most of what I have found (not counting Costco) is in the $10 - $12 range for other retail stores.

Does this mean I think he is legit? Meh... I've no idea. I will say his comment about having Dread Fleet laying around sounds false. We were ordered to pack up all of those and ship them back to the warehouse for destruction. Because that makes so much more sense than cutting the price and actually making some kind of money on them.

Also his comment about not knowing any more than customers is pretty much true. When metal was pulled from the store I was told two days before I had to pack it up. I think the only reason we were given a 2 day advance notice was that they sent us mailing labels and such so we could ship it all back to the warehouse. (Again, it makes so much sense to pay postage to mail things back to be destroyed instead of finding a way to sell it.)

I will say if he really does work for the company he gave enough clues I am sure they will figure out who it is and he wont be working there much longer. The "I only closed the store to go to my grandfather's funeral" bit is a nice little clue.

That could have been a white lie, of course.

Thinking there's no reason to unionise because the pay is good is pretty dumb. Unions can help you with a lot more than that. I didn't join my union because I wasn't paid enough, I joined because of all the other legal protection I can be afforded. What if he has an accident at work his employer disputes? What if a customer makes an accusation of impropriety and you're sacked/disciplined? What if you're unfairly dismissed for other reasons? What you going to do then?

Anyway, I don't think the guy is genuine. On one hand he says that he doesn't get information about releases until just prior to delivery, but then talks at length about what GW wants and their various motivations for this and that approach. He sounds like he's drinking the kool aid a bit and claims knowledge of things I just don't think a manager is genuinely privy to, he's just guessing like everyone else.

 Starfarer wrote:


And people wonder why they don't bother trying to reach out to the community.

Its the internet where are a large proportion of the population let their inner cretin out to play. Simply because some people are obnoxious children doesn't mean that the sensible course of action is to pretend that the internet doesn't exist.

I would happily do it if the job was more than simply being a corporate yes man.

I'm baffled by this. Not by the guys responses, that nonsense was all very predictable. But rather that he agreed to do this. GW is at war with its fanbase/customers, particularly those who frequent the internet. Was this some kind of late Christmas Truce or something? I mean yeah the manager was acting alone and revealed his orders to not interact on that new-fangled-internet, but given that he seemed supportive of GW's policies I don't see why he'd do it.

And the defense of "this is why GW doesn't come online! you criticize them!" is silly. Every other company in the world manages to have an online presence, and indeed they understand the important of customer interaction and social media. GW however is still pretending like it's 1993. The whole "we'll ignore everything online!" is laughably pathetic. You think Apple or Microsoft doesn't get criticized? Yet they still maintain a hefty online presence. Hell the Israeli secret police have a facebook, which is a step above GW.

 Harriticus wrote:
Every other company in the world manages to have an online presence, and indeed they understand the important of customer interaction and social media.

But not every company attempts to C&D a small independent writer for making a children's book with "Space Marine" in the title (and then runs away and hides when the press hits the fan, so to speak). The closest thing I can think of in recent weeks is King going after the 3-man team who made The Banner Saga (an ancient tale of vikings) for having the hide to use the word 'Saga' in their game name, something King does with its games (like 'Candy Crush Saga'), because clearly these things are so similar.

Now, assuming I want to see this as a best case scenario and not some random troll or a fake to increase the visitor counts:

What we have here is one good guy at the bottom of the food chain who probably likes the hobby as much as the next dude here and would love to have a friendly atmosphere at his FLGS and happy players and hobbyists around him, without having really valuable intel to share (because he doesn't have it either, not because he doesn't want to).

What I would love to have is someone 5 levels above with the same motivation but I guess they can't be bothered to actually care about their product, only about the revenue after tax.

 Starfarer wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Didn't GW have a representative posting on Dakka back around 2012ish. What ever happened to him/them/it?

They were to linked with recruitment specifically.

We frightened them off.

And people wonder why they don't bother trying to reach out to the community. Seriously, the guy on Warseer posting was getting hounded by people about his salary, like they were entitled to know the full list of his benefits beyond his base pay, to the point he just stopped addressing them. If people are willing to give some random dude just trying to answer questions such a hard time why the feth would GW proper ever try to engage the community(outside Facebook)? There may have been a point when they could have turned it around by engaging people online, but at this point there are so many bitter people and people holding grudges, they would never stand a chance of gaining ground. I'm not defending some of the ridiculous things they have done as a company, but they clearly do not care to look for feedback on how their company is run.

I have heard Warseer be referred to as Whineseer...for obvious reasons..

That's outside the scope of the discussion.

Back on topic, it is an interesting read that seems to confirm nearly everything that most of us thought about GW and their attitude to veterans.

That could mean it's true, or it could be a fabrication designed to feed our current thinking. If the latter, it doesn't mean our current thinking is wrong, of course.

The most interesting thing was the statement that new recruits don't care about prices. I can see that being correct in the sense that if you've decided to go in and buy the game, you've presumably already accepted the price to be paid. I wonder if the high prices put off potential recruits, though.

 Kosake wrote:


What I would love to have is someone 5 levels above with the same motivation but I guess they can't be bothered to actually care about their product, only about the revenue after tax.

I think the problem with GW, at its core, is that, a couple of long termers aside, no one customer focused gets to that level, the only way to climb that far is to be a corporate yes man. The culture within the parts of the company that dictate direction is so toxic to innovation and direction change because its simply a circle jerk of same thinking profiteers.

It is worth pointing out that most FTSE 100 companies (or fortune 500 for the US readers) learned 20 odd years ago the best way to run a business is through diversity, the senior management of those companies is filled with different backgrounds, quite deliberately, to get different perspectives on every decision they take.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's outside the scope of the discussion.

Back on topic, it is an interesting read that seems to confirm nearly everything that most of us thought about GW and their attitude to veterans.

That could mean it's true, or it could be a fabrication designed to feed our current thinking. If the latter, it doesn't mean our current thinking is wrong, of course.

The most interesting thing was the statement that new recruits don't care about prices. I can see that being correct in the sense that if you've decided to go in and buy the game, you've presumably already accepted the price to be paid. I wonder if the high prices put off potential recruits, though.

That's part of the problem. I consider myself a 'new recruit' I've only been into 40k for about 2 years now. I used to work in a model store so I knew the prices inside out and I accepted them for what they were. I quite happily paid £15 for my Assault Squad box but now I'm asked to pay £20.50 for the exact same thing. I don't see any difference other than an extra £5. I'm already disenchanted with GW's pricing policy and I'm a n00b still!

Thankfully I'm stupidly lucky and because of that former job and the fact my FLGS offers 10% to members, I've rarely paid full price for any of the stuff I've bought. I try and avoid buying direct from GW if I can help it but I'm coming close to pulling out of the hobby because of games like Dropzone Commander and Bolt Action, which are a lot more fun to play and you can get bigger army's for a lot cheaper. I think 1000 points of BA was nearly £230, the same for Bolt Action Japanese was about £70

It's all well and good saying new players are more accepting of the price at the beginning but after how many price increases are those same players still around? That'll be an interesting thing to find out.

After two years you're no longer a new recruit. I would regard a recruit as someone in their first year, maybe 18 months at most. Allowing for three Christmas/Birthday gift receiving events.

The question is whether most people can finish an army in that time, and what proportion of people transitioning like you are from raw recruit upwards, stick with it in order to finish their army.

In other words, is it GW's strategy to milk recruits of the maximum possible in the first 1-2 years, then forget about them and chase the next wave?

 stubacca wrote:


That's part of the problem. I consider myself a 'new recruit' I've only been into 40k for about 2 years now. I used to work in a model store so I knew the prices inside out and I accepted them for what they were. I quite happily paid £15 for my Assault Squad box but now I'm asked to pay £20.50 for the exact same thing. I don't see any difference other than an extra £5. I'm already disenchanted with GW's pricing policy and I'm a n00b still!

Thankfully I'm stupidly lucky and because of that former job and the fact my FLGS offers 10% to members, I've rarely paid full price for any of the stuff I've bought. I try and avoid buying direct from GW if I can help it but I'm coming close to pulling out of the hobby because of games like Dropzone Commander and Bolt Action, which are a lot more fun to play and you can get bigger army's for a lot cheaper. I think 1000 points of BA was nearly £230, the same for Bolt Action Japanese was about £70

It's all well and good saying new players are more accepting of the price at the beginning but after how many price increases are those same players still around? That'll be an interesting thing to find out.

That's the whole strategy. GW doesn't care whether you spend another 20-30 bucks over the course of 3 years when they have enough freshmen they can sell a whole army for 200-300 pesos and be done with it.

With tabletop wargamers it's different than with say pc gamers. With time any PC gamer will buy a new rig and play new games so you better keep your fans happy and in line for your new products.
Tabletop gamers will probably not collect a dozen armies because they don't have time nor space for that (even without taking money into consideration). So a policy that focuses on taking say 250-300 bucks per newcommer and consider it done may actually work (at least in the short run).

 Kilkrazy wrote:
After two years you're no longer a new recruit. I would regard a recruit as someone in their first year, maybe 18 months at most. Allowing for three Christmas/Birthday gift receiving events.

The question is whether most people can finish an army in that time, and what proportion of people transitioning like you are from raw recruit upwards, stick with it in order to finish their army.

In other words, is it GW's strategy to milk recruits of the maximum possible in the first 1-2 years, then forget about them and chase the next wave?

Haven't they said they expect people to stop playing in a few months to a year? Honestly their business model reads like a Ponzi scheme.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's outside the scope of the discussion.

Back on topic, it is an interesting read that seems to confirm nearly everything that most of us thought about GW and their attitude to veterans.

That could mean it's true, or it could be a fabrication designed to feed our current thinking. If the latter, it doesn't mean our current thinking is wrong, of course.

As far as I have been told, it is not about veteran gamers, per se but that a) negative feedback is almost immediately rejected due to a very brash corporate ego and b) because it's the internet, instead of reasoned explanations of the complaint, we get hyperbole, memes and rage and instead of GW filtering that for root cause issues, they instead get sensitive about it and retreat behind that moat and wall... They read the 3 rage comments and turn off the machine, instead of reading to the 4th reasoned explanation of the rage, come to a conclusion and hold onto it, almost exactly as reactionary and unprofessional as the people they accuse of 'being out to get them'... (and I'm not talking about the personal attacks against individuals at GW here, because that is almost universally out of order).

 Kilkrazy wrote:

The most interesting thing was the statement that new recruits don't care about prices. I can see that being correct in the sense that if you've decided to go in and buy the game, you've presumably already accepted the price to be paid. I wonder if the high prices put off potential recruits, though.

This pertains to very young players with no sense of monetary worth and no bills to pay and a select few older players who ignore cost due to high earnings and few outgoings (no kids/no other significant hobbies/bachelor etc) and a high % of disposable income. GW's upper retail managers actively want to discourage this group from interacting with old gamers who are likely to be poisonous to the new recruit's buying habits.




All told, the retail side of the business teaches it's managers it's all about ignoring the demographic, writing them off as their spending has already decreased from the initial splash of building their first army, and concentrating on the next wave. I personally believe that this is a flawed model and they should really be building bridges to the majority of the community, who would forgive a vast amount with some better interacting and explaining, despite the prices. Even if a customer has fulfilled the lion's share of their buying, they remain a potential source of further revenue and a potential good ambassador for the company, rather than a bitter ex-lover.

I continue to hope and pray for a change in the thinking of the company.

Yeah it's something I've never understood. Even if the vet doesn't buy anything but a new rule/army book every 4 years, if you've kept your vets happy that's still a pretty safe, reliable income.

It's not as if the things that'd keep vets happy wouldn't also keep the recruits happy too.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That's outside the scope of the discussion.

Back on topic, it is an interesting read that seems to confirm nearly everything that most of us thought about GW and their attitude to veterans.

That could mean it's true, or it could be a fabrication designed to feed our current thinking. If the latter, it doesn't mean our current thinking is wrong, of course.

As far as I have been told, it is not about veteran gamers, per se but that a) negative feedback is almost immediately rejected due to a very brash corporate ego and b) because it's the internet, instead of reasoned explanations of the complaint, we get hyperbole, memes and rage and instead of GW filtering that for root cause issues, they instead get sensitive about it and retreat behind that moat and wall... They read the 3 rage comments and turn off the machine, instead of reading to the 4th reasoned explanation of the rage, come to a conclusion and hold onto it, almost exactly as reactionary and unprofessional as the people they accuse of 'being out to get them'... (and I'm not talking about the personal attacks against individuals at GW here, because that is almost universally out of order).

...

Yes, I get the impression that GW is a huge "yes" machine organised around Tom Kirby. He does after all fill both posts of Chairman and CEO, in defiance of best corporate practice rules, and this gives him a lot of power on top of his historical authority as a long term top manager and of course his large share holding.

Herzlos wrote:
Yeah it's something I've never understood. Even if the vet doesn't buy anything but a new rule/army book every 4 years, if you've kept your vets happy that's still a pretty safe, reliable income.

It's not as if the things that'd keep vets happy wouldn't also keep the recruits happy too.

The spectre of Specialist Games once again raises its head.

I'm done with GW, not because I've rage quit, but because I've bought everything I want from them over the last few years, and thanks to their pricing and general behaviour, I don't wish to reward them with any more of my money by adding another army, which is all I really could do to start spending in any sort of amounts again. That's not to say I'm above giving them cash, while I'm often critical of them, I'm happy to praise too, so if people were to get the impression I was anti-GW from my posts here, that speaks as much to their actions as it does to my attitude.

If I could develop either of my 40K armies into a BFG fleet or Epic scale army, or both, I'd be all over it, subject to them (in a presumably new format) being fun to play and relatively affordable and available.

If a skirmish scale game was re-introduced as a starter game, you'd have a clear, defined life cycle for your customer. Skirmish-battle-alternate (naval/small scale or both) simultaneously giving the opportunity of extending the period of time a customer would remain with GW, giving people who had perhaps reached the end of the road with their 30mm game another avenue to spend, lowering barrier to entry and likely, assuming they didn't royally feth it up (which given recent behaviour is not a gimme) have many vets dancing in the streets.

Their meat grinder approach to customers is a bit distasteful, but it isn't terminally flawed, they aren't the first company to do it, and in an immature market like tabletop wargames where there aren't any other players operating at a scale large enough to really keep them honest, it is sustainable for an extended period (as we have seen, even if the latest figures are symptoms of what many assume they've still got years in them if they want to keep going this way) but as with many things GW, while the concept may be sound, the execution is decidedly sub-optimal.

That pretty much sums up my relationship with them as well. I've got a pretty complete armies for WHF/40K and don't feel the justification for starting another one. But I'd probably buy any box-games that came out in a non-LE manner (Since I've already owned most of them).

I'd love to start a skirmish gang or a marine chapter at epic scale though, but there's almost nothing left for me to buy from the current range that I want.

Herzlos wrote:
Yeah it's something I've never understood. Even if the vet doesn't buy anything but a new rule/army book every 4 years, if you've kept your vets happy that's still a pretty safe, reliable income.

It's not as if the things that'd keep vets happy wouldn't also keep the recruits happy too.

Yeah it's always baffled me as well. Assuming that the "GW only cares about new blood" argument is true, I don't see start up prices that entice children or young adults. Maybe the starter box, but how many of these can you sell?

I've heard the "well vets have everything they need already" argument time and time again but I still do not buy it. I have never met an avid 40k or Fantasy player in the 15 plus years I've been addicted to this hobby that has started an army, collected to a playable points level, painted it, and says "ok, I'm good now. No need to even advertise to me any more"

Nope we keep buying plastic crack. And when we tire of Future Space Plastic we switch to High Fantasy Plastic before going back to Space plastic.

There are a few things people need to keep in mind as they read through the managers statements.

All he knows is what he's told and what he personally sees in his store.

For example, there is a dissonance between the idea of focusing mostly on new blood and then having a target of *only* selling 1 new customer a week. If that's what's going on across a large portion of GW stores then they have a serious problem with focus.

Why? Well, assuming that new customer is picking up a boxed set or a battleforce, codex and rulebook then we're only talking about $10k or less a year in new customer sales. He claims his store has about $150k in revenue which would mean new customer sales are only about 6% of total. Even if it were double that (unlikely) then new customer sales aren't where they need to focus.

GW says "new customers are where its at" The manager buys into it because his livelihood is dependent on it. The reality, based on the numbers we've been told, is that GW is clueless.

As a GW store "manager" he simply isn't paid to think about the reality of what's going on. He is told what is to stock on his shelf and to whom he should focus his attention. GW even gives him a plausible song and dance for their choices.

The sad thing is that I think he really is a GW manager. I also think he believes what he's saying. Which to me says that GW has absolutely lost all ability to understand their customers. Which means that it's going to be a long time before things change.

clively wrote:

The sad thing is that I think he really is a GW manager. I also think he believes what he's saying. Which to me says that GW has absolutely lost all ability to understand their customers. Which means that it's going to be a long time before things change.

That's my thinking. It's either that or a really clever bit of marketing, but that isn't terribly plausible. It's just that if it isn't clever marketing...yea...it gives you a little glimpse into the world of GW.

 Strombones wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
Yeah it's something I've never understood. Even if the vet doesn't buy anything but a new rule/army book every 4 years, if you've kept your vets happy that's still a pretty safe, reliable income.

It's not as if the things that'd keep vets happy wouldn't also keep the recruits happy too.

Yeah it's always baffled me as well. Assuming that the "GW only cares about new blood" argument is true, I don't see start up prices that entice children or young adults. Maybe the starter box, but how many of these can you sell?

I've heard the "well vets have everything they need already" argument time and time again but I still do not buy it. I have never met an avid 40k or Fantasy player in the 15 plus years I've been addicted to this hobby that has started an army, collected to a playable points level, painted it, and says "ok, I'm good now. No need to even advertise to me any more"

Nope we keep buying plastic crack. And when we tire of Future Space Plastic we switch to High Fantasy Plastic before going back to Space plastic.

I agree with this, they may prioritise the new gamer as this may make them more money but if they did not care about the income from vets then why produce any new models? A

ren't new models expensive to produce? If you have everything for that army already then you are only going to buy new things, but if you are just starting out everything is new to you, so no reason to produce new models.

Where as we are seeing five to seven new kits for each major release, that says to me that they are making at least some effort to market to the vets.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

A GW Store Manager wrote:GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...

Well. That's problem number 1 right there.

Considering how many people active bash GW regardless of what they do, I can't say I disagree. It would be a huge waste of time.

clively wrote:

The sad thing is that I think he really is a GW manager. I also think he believes what he's saying. Which to me says that GW has absolutely lost all ability to understand their customers. Which means that it's going to be a long time before things change.

You are spot on - and though true, it is also a bit sad and depressing.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

A GW Store Manager wrote:GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...

Well. That's problem number 1 right there.

Considering how many people active bash GW regardless of what they do, I can't say I disagree. It would be a huge waste of time.

Yeah, I mean, why on earth would you listen to feedback from your customers and try and adjust your approach?

Never mind that the worst critics were generally your most passionate supporters at one point, and that if you've managed to turn them into such a negative creatures then it should be taken as symptomatic of something being very wrong with how you're interacting with your customer base.

Stick with numbers dude, you've not got a clue about customer relations.