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Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 AegisGrimm wrote:


Sure, but wouldn't it be a far better comparison to use other wargames as a point of reference?


No, because then it's possible to find competitors that are priced better and/or growing more healthily than GW, which disproves that GW is such a huge deal to get into.


Maybe its because words are hard to convey certain subtleties, but are you being sarcastic here and agreeing with me?

Because that was my point.

I hope you're joking.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

Yeah, I was being sarcastic about all the people that compare the disposable income to buy a $140 Imperial Knight to the disposable income needed to buy a classic Mustang and think there is anything of value that can be inferred from that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/24 01:41:17




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Yeah, I was being sarcastic about all the people that compare the disposable income to buy a $140 Imperial Knight to the disposable income needed to buy a classic Mustang and think there is anything of value that can be inferred from that.


Phew, okay, we're on the same page then.

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Australia

 agnosto wrote:
Your typical American household has less money to blow on plastic army mens than it has since the mid-90's to early 2000s.

Random graphic:



So, GW responds by increasing prices at a quicker pace than inflation which leads to decreased sales volume which in turn results in steeper price increases to make up for lost volume....etc.

The number of people on food stamps (government dole) has risen from 32million to 47million.

The middle class, you know those people that used to buy their stuff is shrinking and is expected to disappear sometime in the near future (just shades of poor and he uber-rich.



People struggling to pay bills and feed themselves generally don't buy toys.

Everything you just said falls apart when you look at the wider wargaming market.

GW are the only ones in this position, all of their competition are thriving in the same economic environment.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
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Runnin up on ya.

Not really. If people have less money to spend it just makes sense that they'll go to lower cost alternatives.

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Australia

Right, inferior goods, I am aware of the concept.
Except in this case the boutique model companies that charge as much as GW are doing well too. There would also need to be some evidence that people want to return to buying GW models when they can afford it again, the vast majority of the anecdoteal evidence is that people who leave have no intention of ever returning.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
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The Eternity Gate

I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay.

I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/24 02:38:34


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 AegisGrimm wrote:
I have spent thousands of dollars over nearly 20 years of 40K, and have never once played in a store. I've only even been in one Games Workshop store, when I went to Seattle in 2000. There's not even one within 50 miles of where I live. For that matter, I don't even know of a commercial venue where I could play even if I wanted to.

If you're younger than 30, you might see 40k as an insanely expensive hobby, that has no easy way to play it, and the internet is destroying everything that's not the internet. If you're older, you likely see a hobby that has up-front costs, but has great value, and is relatively easy to organize a group of people to play yourself, and is tied to a series of businesses that are worth supporting.


Unfortunately I am 32, and still see it as an insanely expensive hobby. But much more so now than when I started.


It is much more expensive. I did an analysis and the price of GW products has increased, on average, three times the rate of inflation in the last 13 or so years. That, combined with their current current model of decreasing points values of units while increasing the cost of units means that you have to buy more to play the same points value that you wish.

I believe that GW reached the market saturation point several years back and they are attempting to find the limit of price/ amount of shenanigans that market will bear.

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Made in us
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Wisconsin

In relation to the OP and avoiding any lengthy discussion on how horrible GW's business model and lack of comprehension on inflation ratios...no I don't think the hobby as a whole is 'in trouble'.

I've worked in retail at a store that deals in geeky merch suh as 40K seasonally since 2012. My boss' stance on havinga playspace is that it's great for attracting a local customer base and encouraging that they return. He doesn't though as he's been chiefly dealing with online business since the early 2000s.

Another local store though has several tables and closet full of terrain. Open gaming during store hours you simply have to let them know you'll be in their basement and clean up after yourself. While I am not a big fan of the store due to their lack of any discount or reward system and limited selection of RPGs or war gaming merchandise I still find myself buying most of my 40K models from them to support the business since they let me use their tables.

So in conclusion no I highly doubt that the open gaming in store fronts is going anywhere. Save for the initial cost of putting one up there is hardly 'maintenance fee'. And its an investment that will easily pay for itself if there is a player base in the area.
   
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Oregon, USA

40k models are a bit spendy. This is true.

The hobby as a whole is not that spendy.

you can play small points games on home-made terrain (which you can build for practically nothing) and still enjoy 40k.

The hobby is expensive as you make it. If you want a huge army it will cost you, but the sheer amount of pleasure-hours you get out of it justifies the cost, at least for me.

wargaming (several systems) is my less expensive hobby.

I also build combat robots.

average cost approx 1000.00

Average life expectancy (assuming i win one match, then lose one against even odds and equivilent robots) - 10 minutes.

average salvagable value - about 100 - 200.00 depending on what exactly got trashed.

Trust me, 40K is cheaper, and your minis will still be more or less intact after each match, barring a really rough or gamestore-kid infested FLGS.

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Saratoga Springs, NY

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't care what it costs to restore old cars, because I don't do that. I play table top games. And in the wargaming market, I know of plenty of games far cheaper than 40k, which a much more relevant comparison.


Not going to lie, speaking as someone whose father has restored classic 60s and 70s cars for a hobby since before I've been alive, you can actually make some good money out of it if you buy the car to be restored cheap and know how to do your own body work and painting.

Probably not relevant at all to the current discussion, just want to set the record straight on this point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ascalam wrote:
I also build combat robots.

average cost approx 1000.00

Average life expectancy (assuming i win one match, then lose one against even odds and equivilent robots) - 10 minutes.

average salvagable value - about 100 - 200.00 depending on what exactly got trashed


Ok, now that's awesome. Always wanted to do that, but the closest I've ever gotten is a little RC car I made out of spare car window motors sitting around my dad's garage.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/24 05:49:49


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BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


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WayneTheGame wrote:


Exactly and when you compare GW to other miniature games, the total cost of investment to get started in GW is way higher. Even if you can point to let's say a full Warmachine army as costing the same, that's a full army versus the beginner army. Compare to Kings of War and GW is 2x to 3x more expensive. I'm betting Flames of War runs about the same. Even other 28mm of comparable quality (see: Warlord Games and Perry Miniatures) give the same quality as GW for half the price and/or give you more figures to boot.

40k is expensive simply because GW has gotten away with it, and not because of any real value.


Your comment is full of fail. What other game company provides places to play their games all over the world? What company employes staff all over the world who will help teach you to build, convert and paint the models you have bought for free? What other game or miniature company provides the level of direct interaction with their customers that GW does?

Truth be told, none of what I listed above is actually free. GW has to pay for it all, rent, salaries, taxes, ect. It's the higher price they charge for their product that allows them to provide a greater level of hobby support than any other company in the industry. GW is far from perfect, but to imply that their higher prices provide no addition benefit for the customer and simply line their pockets with more profit is disingenuous, if not down right dishonest.



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St. George, Utah

I don't see the hobby as THAT expensive, honestly. In the long-term, yeah sure you'll drop a lot on it, but seeing as how I can spend as much time as I do with it and the pleasure I get from the various aspects of it, oh well?

People like to compare the cost to video games a lot, which I personally don't really get. It costs what, like $400 for a new console? That's a pretty steep cost of entry, and it doesn't even come with things you can do with it til you drop another $20 bare minimum.

Now personally, I think the "end" of 40k will be if they continue pushing the same line as they have been with giant super mega plastic toys that are basically I Win buttons. The focus on "new bigger better!" product all the time at the cost of gameplay and enjoyment of an afternoon is far more detrimental than any costs involved. If people enjoy what they're doing enough to make it a lifestyle, cost is somewhat irrelevant. If people quit enjoying it enough to spend the money, though, that's when things get dire.
   
Made in gb
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Watford, England

I think I should jump back in on this thread as it seems that price is in large focus. I never suggested that price is the main topic of contention.

My focus was moving away from stores and falling into relative obscurity from the public who might not know about it.
If there aren't any shops or places to play then people like me who are just restarting, have no where to go to play.

Competitive games like tournaments aren't going to be my thing all the time.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yachting is more expensive but then you have a yacht. With 40k you pay ridiculous money for plastic toys, it's imo one of the worst hobbies cost wise.

The price of PS4/ Xbone buys you an army yes, but then you can play only one game with it. If you're not into painting, I wouldn't say the latter is better value. Console/ PC opens a world of possibilities for you and average person will get many more hours of fun from them than a single 40k army. Also consoles and current PC are technical marvels built in 28nm process and you know what you pay for, unlike $70 for 3 tiny hive guard where I really don't.

Funnily enough, I don't think that comparing to other wargames is that relevant either. 40k has higher cost of entry but you have bigger scale, obviously skirmish games with smaller model count will be cheaper. And those that are cheaper per model are ussualy also worse quality and design wise, like Mantic.


From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.

A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.

How could I look away?

 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Blacksails wrote:
Table top gaming has grown in recent years; and significantly at that,

The future of 40k in particular is uncertain, and I'm a bit on the pessimistic side, but I don't think its going to die for the foreseeable future.


This.

There is a community of collectors, painters, and players out there. At the moment, I think this community is a bit shrinking.

On one hand, it gets harder for GW to get new young players into the game (prices, complicated rule set) and on the othe hand, older players quit; some players here are quite unhappy with the rule set and the codices so they stopped playing and partly sold their armies.


It appears that GW is in a downward spiral.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/24 10:32:45


Former moderator 40kOnline

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 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, 40k's days are numbered. In fact, as of just ~4 days ago, 40k has numbered 10,000 days since it began.
If you're younger than 30, you might see 40k as an insanely expensive hobby, that has no easy way to play it, and the internet is destroying everything that's not the internet. If you're older, you likely see a hobby that has up-front costs, but has great value, and is relatively easy to organize a group of people to play yourself, and is tied to a series of businesses that are worth supporting.

If you want a game that you can pirate from the internet and spend seconds before connected to a multiplayer game from the comfort of your own living room, then there are plenty of video game options out there for you. That doesn't mean 40k is going to disappear any time soon.




This made me LOL, it's so true. Admittedly you may need a adjust the 30 number given a lot of people are done over my their massive student loans in the UK now-a-days and are not comfortable till older.

I think the suggestion that the hobby is "insanely expensive" is a joke, the Mrs forced me to keep a record of what I spend every year because she thought it was out of hand. It turns out although I spend several hundred every year on GW products it's less than I spend on computer equipment (for gaming) and in the same ball park as she spends on clothes (not that she would agree with me on clothes being a luxury of course). but either way it's way under what we spend on luxuries like a skiing trip (which I'd class as a hobby as it's so regular).

But it's perspective isn't it... imagine I was 14 again... I'd probably play with mates at school like I used to (I never once played at GW) and it'd probably be a very small points game. Absolutely no one I ever played at school could have fielded the equivalent of what we see as 1,750pts now and of course that is partly because vehicles have become "very cheap" in points compared to back when I were a lad.

But you also have to compare it to what other things kids want now-a-days... I have to admit I have no idea what they would want, but let me guess there are plenty of hobbies which cost the parent as much as wargaming... xbox whatever would be hundreds plus the expensive games and online costs, horseriding or any sort of regular hobby (paint ball/airsofting) or lessons (musical) will rapidly cost the same as wargaming, hell even learning to ride a bike is going to hurt if you buy a new one (pedal free, trike, stabalises, multi bikes as they grow).

I think it boils down to most of us have a certain budget to spend on non "essentials" (and I mean real essentials) and it's where the money goes...

Anyways, back to OP, yes I think GW's days are numbered. I think there are too many competing hobbies and less parents are interested in model making or wargaming than they used to be and so are passing it down less to kids who have far too many other distractions to spend their parents money on.

As to older wargamers... most of them start young I guess and so GW has lost sight of the fact the future is in the children's hands!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/24 11:08:13


 
   
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Tampa, FL

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:


Exactly and when you compare GW to other miniature games, the total cost of investment to get started in GW is way higher. Even if you can point to let's say a full Warmachine army as costing the same, that's a full army versus the beginner army. Compare to Kings of War and GW is 2x to 3x more expensive. I'm betting Flames of War runs about the same. Even other 28mm of comparable quality (see: Warlord Games and Perry Miniatures) give the same quality as GW for half the price and/or give you more figures to boot.

40k is expensive simply because GW has gotten away with it, and not because of any real value.


Your comment is full of fail. What other game company provides places to play their games all over the world? What company employes staff all over the world who will help teach you to build, convert and paint the models you have bought for free? What other game or miniature company provides the level of direct interaction with their customers that GW does?

Truth be told, none of what I listed above is actually free. GW has to pay for it all, rent, salaries, taxes, ect. It's the higher price they charge for their product that allows them to provide a greater level of hobby support than any other company in the industry. GW is far from perfect, but to imply that their higher prices provide no addition benefit for the customer and simply line their pockets with more profit is disingenuous, if not down right dishonest.




Not sure if serious... most people don't play in GW's stores, but in independent retailers. Couple that with GW's reduction of costs in making figures (switching to plastic) and still hiking up the price instead of passing the savings on, reducing models in the box and STILL raising prices, cutting staff costs at most of their stores, and you can't seriously be using "they have stores to run" as a valid argument.

GW is the *only* wargames company that is experiencing a decline, while the others are growing. The problem lies with GW and not anyone else.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
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Black Country

All those other companies just don't offer the same customer support;

Where are the other companies shops? (I don't buy online)

Who else offers FREE gaming like GW do at Warhammer World?


The cost of other hobbies also very important. I don't like the look of games like Warmachine or Hordes so when I look around I look into other hobbies I'll often cost them against the cost of 40K. So far 40K is winning because it's much cheaper than my other hobbies or those I may be interested in. I spend more on petrol in a month than I spend on 40K in a year, hence my classic car is being sold :(

Apologies for talking positively about games I enjoy.
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Tampa, FL

Most of those other companies tapped into the FLGS independent stores rather than alienate and be openly hostile to them like GW did, which also tend to have free gaming tables and the like.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/24 18:11:07


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
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 buddha wrote:
I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay.

I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!


That's genius. Sigged.

Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
 buddha wrote:
I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
 
   
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No, 40k will be obtained when GW is inevitably bought out or rebooted by new managements. And in fact that's a wonderful prospect. Separating 40k from GW management is the best thing that could happen to it.

My Armies:
5,500pts
2,700pts
2,000pts


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran






Canada

Tabletop wargaming as a whole will never go away. Now that the genie's out of the bottle there is no stuffing it back in. That's like saying boardgames will go away. Sure they may fluctuate in popularity, but even in todays world of cell phone games and short attention spans boardgames are as popular as ever.

There may not be public places to play wargames in the future (although I doubt it), but worst case there is always YE OLDE KITCHEN TABLE.

I think 40k will continue to fade away, but won't be totally replaced until other games can find a way to hook kids and teenagers as well as GW does. Just look at all the lifetime customers here who got into the hobby when they were 10-14 years old.

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Made in gr
Cardolanian Thrall




Athens, Greece

Being a video game collector and a hunter as well as a wargamer I can say that wargaming is[b] the most expensive of my hobbies and yet I don't about it and if you guys think that 40k's days are numbered we LOTR players should commit seppuku right away! I also doubt GW's days are numbered due to the fact that GW has the best quality of miniatures in fantasy gaming. Believe me I hate the price hikes of the later years as the next man (I buy less sets than I used to) but I doubt there is much we can do about it exept hope that GW sees the error of its ways and lowers the prices.
   
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Camas, WA

7/17/1998
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.miniatures.warhammer/P4BcS1kUU_8/x7W6h7eZY84J

6 models is not a gang! How is this a deal?<Sniveling Fanboy Mode on>
[Drops to knees to appease the GW Gods] Oh THANKYOU! THANK YOU! I am so
happy that you re-released NECRO and charged more for it! Please allow me
to clean the bottom of your boot from any dirt that may be there.
<Sniveling Sarchasm mode off>

Honestly Tim, this is price gouging beyond recognition even by GW
standards. I can't believe that there are this many stupid people in the
world that they would be willing to pay $119 for the same Necro set they
could have gotten 3 months ago for $69.99. Or is that the marketing plan?
Charge them more and people will buy the overpriced boxed Necro set instead
- much like the plastic Terminator/Space Hulk controversy we had a ways
back.

Don't listen to the consumers, but I'm (smiling evily) telling you now,
GW's days are numbered.
Ral's figs get better every day (and they're
STILL cheaper) - as do their games. And they don't sell plastic models
either. All you punks will be drawing unemployment someday, and it
probably will be sooner than you think. I'm doing my part to make sure you
get there.


--
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/25 20:37:52


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The hills above Belfast

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, I'm wondering what this vast sea of cheap hobbies are.

Are we only comparing 40k to drinking water, taking walks, sweeping the floor, and praying? Am I only surrounded by teenagers and presbyterians?




Ha ha, I'm a Presbyterian:-) it's great!

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Athens, GA

 Ailaros wrote:
I never said it wasn't expensive. That said, relative to other adult hobbies, it definitely is. Drinking and smoking are way more expensive over time than 40k, and other more adult hobbies like woodworking, or being a gearhead have much, much higher up-front costs.

In any case, the real thing I'm talking about here is value. I spent $20 on a bottle of bombay sapphire gin 8 years ago, and it only lasted me a week or two. I also spent $30 on a box of guardsmen (which was considered abusively expensive then, because GW is a price whore, etc. etc.), and have gotten over 200 games in over many years with those same models. Much less the time I spent painting them or the time I spent writing battle reports with pictures of them.

Regardless of cost, 40k has a very high value, because you get so much out of it relative to other things.

If you're younger, the idea of something being worthwhile over the course of a decade just doesn't make sense. Once you've had a few decades, it does, generally speaking.



I'd have to agree with Ailaros here.

When I started 40K back in the closing days of the last decade I was a poor enlisted grunt and things seemed sooooo expensive, but I still got into the hobby

However, almost a decade and a half later, I'm still using many of the same models (with many new additions) and have reaped countless hours of enjoyment from my initial investment

I'd say I've probably spent in the ballpark of 10k to 11k (give or take) over ~15 years of hobbying, which works out to roughly $700 a year in costs

When compared to my other major hobby, Firearms, it pales in comparison

I drop 1.5K on a good rifle without batting an eye (looking at you M1A) not to mention ammunition, magazines, mods, range time, targets, ect......

Even if you compare it to console or computer gaming, movies, or something more directly related its still a great bang for the buck in terms of actual $'s spent per hour of entertainment

All thinks considered 40k is a relative bargain once you get over the initial hump



40K is also easily scalable if you start with low point skirmishes, actually some of the best games you can find

Plus, if you've done a good job with your models, or have out of print models, you can get a fair portion of your money back if / when you decide to sell your stuff and get out

I also think that the tabletop hobby as a whole is only growing with the advent of newer games / companies that are healthy competition for GW

Eventually GW will shape up and get their acts together, or they will be bought out and the IP continued under a different banner

40k is an expansive and immersive IP with decades of build up that will not idly fall by the wayside


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 pretre wrote:
7/17/1998
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.miniatures.warhammer/P4BcS1kUU_8/x7W6h7eZY84J

6 models is not a gang! How is this a deal?<Sniveling Fanboy Mode on>
[Drops to knees to appease the GW Gods] Oh THANKYOU! THANK YOU! I am so
happy that you re-released NECRO and charged more for it! Please allow me
to clean the bottom of your boot from any dirt that may be there.
<Sniveling Sarchasm mode off>

Honestly Tim, this is price gouging beyond recognition even by GW
standards. I can't believe that there are this many stupid people in the
world that they would be willing to pay $119 for the same Necro set they
could have gotten 3 months ago for $69.99. Or is that the marketing plan?
Charge them more and people will buy the overpriced boxed Necro set instead
- much like the plastic Terminator/Space Hulk controversy we had a ways
back.

Don't listen to the consumers, but I'm (smiling evily) telling you now,
GW's days are numbered.
Ral's figs get better every day (and they're
STILL cheaper) - as do their games. And they don't sell plastic models
either. All you punks will be drawing unemployment someday, and it
probably will be sooner than you think. I'm doing my part to make sure you
get there.


--
BOYCOTT GAMES WORKSHOP PRODUCTS!!!!! - Bob Yeager

If you think gravity is a theory, drop a hammer on your head.

Remove the NoSpam from my e-mail to reply


In reference to the OPs main point, THIS!!!

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/02/25 21:20:43


10-15K (way too many to point up)
4K 
   
 
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