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 Grey Knight Dillon wrote:
Wow...Yes, I do make them re-roll successfull saves. And yes I can turn off deamonic gifts.

You need to read rules, not skim them. Neither Fateweaver nor whatever is reading the Grimoire cares about Excommunication.

Simple math should be all you'd need. Draigo actually is pretty boss against daemons. Just not enough. I'll run the numbers later and post them.

 Grey Knight Dillon wrote:
Isn't the Invul itself a gift?

Nope. They have a 5+ invul conferred by the Daemon USR but that isn't a gift, and the 4++ is conferred by a common or garden psychic power from the BRB, boosted to a 2++ by the effects of the Grimoire, which, even if you assume the Grimoire IS a gift, to neutralise it you'd have to Dark Excommunication the bearer, not the unit affected, and even then the bonus would apply for the remainder of the turn, and DE may well then wear off in time to reapply next turn.

Well thanks everybody. Hes disapeared for now, but i believe he gets the point (hopefully).

Even then, it would be 2+, not 2+ rerollable.

Forgive me if i am wrong but when using the lampreys bite don't you only get a single attack? That means 9 attacks hitting on 4's with re-rolls yields about 7 hits wounding on 3's so about 5 wounds. As long as he has an Apothacary Dragio should save 4/5 of those wounds with his 3++/5+++, i am also assuming the heralds won't do much. So yes, if you re just talking about combat a Draigowing can survive the screamer onslaught and maybe wait it out until grimour is failed but there is no reason for the Screamerstar to charge in if it doesn't need to.

This is also the case with a level 3 Libarian with force stave because if he gets precognition he can tank on that 2+ re-rollable just like you and if he doesn't get that their is a fair chance he wil have misfortune, either one puts a clink in the works of the screamerstar. Screamerstar didn't kill Draigowing, Eldar and Tau killed Draigowing, Draigowing can handle this daemon cheese as well as it ever could if properly prepared.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Even then, it would be 2+, not 2+ rerollable.

Screamers are Tzeentch demons and therefore reroll failed save throws of 1. With the 2++ that makes all failed saves reroll since you can only fail on 1.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Forgive me if i am wrong but when using the lampreys bite don't you only get a single attack? That means 9 attacks hitting on 4's with re-rolls yields about 7 hits wounding on 3's so about 5 wounds. As long as he has an Apothacary Dragio should save 4/5 of those wounds with his 3++/5+++, i am also assuming the heralds won't do much. So yes, if you re just talking about combat a Draigowing can survive the screamer onslaught and maybe wait it out until grimour is failed but there is no reason for the Screamerstar to charge in if it doesn't need to.

This is also the case with a level 3 Libarian with force stave because if he gets precognition he can tank on that 2+ re-rollable just like you and if he doesn't get that their is a fair chance he wil have misfortune, either one puts a clink in the works of the screamerstar. Screamerstar didn't kill Draigowing, Eldar and Tau killed Draigowing, Draigowing can handle this daemon cheese as well as it ever could if properly prepared.

It is still somewhat up in the air if it is only 1 attack, or if, like Smash, you get one attack them bonus attacks for charging on top. In the absence of anything else, I've gone with the precedent of Smash, so while, yes, he would survive, it wouldn't be for as long as you might think. The Heralds can be swinging AP2 at Initiative for 10 points each too, so don't discount them.

Besides, I believe the original assertion was Draigo +1 could "handle" a Screamerstar, which is just plain ridiculous.

Draigo doesn't have dark excommunication anyway.

Draigo and Paladins can't.
Draigo and Paladins and someone with Dark Excommunication and that henchmen that makes Daemons reroll invul saves? that is far more probable.

Last time I fielded a Screamer Star in Vassal they bested a full Paladin with Draico unit (although it took several rounds of combat, the guy was making an absurd amount of 5+ saves)

Draigo and his One Paladin Apothecary would win. Apoth has Stave. Draigo has 3++ FNP and the Apoth has 2++ FNP. Draigo is Strength 10 against Daemons and does therefore deal out instant death. And the Apoth inflicts instant death too via force weapon.

Last time I fielded a Screamer Star in Vassal they bested a full Paladin with Draico unit (although it took several rounds of combat, the guy was making an absurd amount of 5+ saves)-Tyran

Why 5+? Did none of them have a stave and was he taking none of the wounds on Draigo?

Why does everyone think paladins are so amazing lately?

And Draigo... ugh. I think the fluff goes to everyone's head.

Are we forgetting how well Draigo would stand up to a round of Screamerstar shooting? Why even contemplate how he'd do in an assault, he's not going to get there.

 azreal13 wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Forgive me if i am wrong but when using the lampreys bite don't you only get a single attack? That means 9 attacks hitting on 4's with re-rolls yields about 7 hits wounding on 3's so about 5 wounds. As long as he has an Apothacary Dragio should save 4/5 of those wounds with his 3++/5+++, i am also assuming the heralds won't do much. So yes, if you re just talking about combat a Draigowing can survive the screamer onslaught and maybe wait it out until grimour is failed but there is no reason for the Screamerstar to charge in if it doesn't need to.

This is also the case with a level 3 Libarian with force stave because if he gets precognition he can tank on that 2+ re-rollable just like you and if he doesn't get that their is a fair chance he wil have misfortune, either one puts a clink in the works of the screamerstar. Screamerstar didn't kill Draigowing, Eldar and Tau killed Draigowing, Draigowing can handle this daemon cheese as well as it ever could if properly prepared.

It is still somewhat up in the air if it is only 1 attack, or if, like Smash, you get one attack them bonus attacks for charging on top. In the absence of anything else, I've gone with the precedent of Smash, so while, yes, he would survive, it wouldn't be for as long as you might think. The Heralds can be swinging AP2 at Initiative for 10 points each too, so don't discount them.

Besides, I believe the original assertion was Draigo +1 could "handle" a Screamerstar, which is just plain ridiculous.

It is a set value modifer, so comes last. 1 Attack.

Smash is not a set value, so you cannot use it as precedent. It halves your attacks, so is therefore calculated before bonuses through addition - BODMAS

So lots of wrong things here

1.) the invul is not a gift it is either provided by the daemon special rule, or a psychic power.

2.) dark excommunication would not turn off the grimoir it removes the gift during the assault phase but the effect of the grimoir is not the gift the ability to use it is

3.) Draigo and one paladin don't force re-rolls to successful saves,

4.) Draigo and one paladin don't have dark excomuniction.

5.) this assumes that the heralds in the star don't roll misfortune.

Chances are good it would be a long combat, and better overall for the paladin player because ~ 400 points is tying up 600 points but the screamers (assuming no outside factors) will eventually win, especially if they orchestrate the assault to put heralds on the apoth and screamers on dragon o force him to take most of the saves and make look out sir rolls. Because if he dies then the squad loses fearless and might run.

 Grey Knight Dillon wrote:
Draigo and his One Paladin Apothecary would win. Apoth has Stave. Draigo has 3++ FNP and the Apoth has 2++ FNP. Draigo is Strength 10 against Daemons and does therefore deal out instant death. And the Apoth inflicts instant death too via force weapon.

Last time I fielded a Screamer Star in Vassal they bested a full Paladin with Draico unit (although it took several rounds of combat, the guy was making an absurd amount of 5+ saves)-Tyran

Why 5+? Did none of them have a stave and was he taking none of the wounds on Draigo?

You seem to be immune to mathhammer. Thats okay.

What about taking out some models and try to duke it out 10 times. I suggest reading all involved rules carefully before doing that and share your results afterwards.

You could always snipe the Grimoir bearer with a Vindicare on an Icarus Lascannon before it even comes to this.

I suspect that the OP and his friend are trolling us (successfully, I might add).

 Zande4 wrote:
You could always snipe the Grimoir bearer with a Vindicare on an Icarus Lascannon before it even comes to this.

You mean to suggest that Kaldor Draigo can't solo a Screamerstar?! Woaaahhh....

Ha im no troll and i thought someone was going to say that because it sounds so rediculous. PM me and ill give you the full conversation between us. Its no troll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zande4 wrote:
You could always snipe the Grimoir bearer with a Vindicare on an Icarus Lascannon before it even comes to this.

Look out sir 2+ wound like to have a word with you

Vindicare's ignore LOS. So who he picks out gets the hit.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Ha im no troll and i thought someone was going to say that because it sounds so rediculous. PM me and ill give you the full conversation between us. Its no troll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zande4 wrote:
You could always snipe the Grimoir bearer with a Vindicare on an Icarus Lascannon before it even comes to this.

Look out sir 2+ wound like to have a word with you

Vindicares care not for your Look Out, Sir!

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Ha im no troll and i thought someone was going to say that because it sounds so rediculous. PM me and ill give you the full conversation between us. Its no troll.

Your friend is trolling you then. Either that or he's just too stubborn to admit when he's wrong (and he is wrong).

 Happyjew wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Ha im no troll and i thought someone was going to say that because it sounds so rediculous. PM me and ill give you the full conversation between us. Its no troll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zande4 wrote:
You could always snipe the Grimoir bearer with a Vindicare on an Icarus Lascannon before it even comes to this.

Look out sir 2+ wound like to have a word with you

Vindicares care not for your Look Out, Sir!

...int eh GK FAQ, in case youre wondering where

No matter what, the player controlling the vindicare allocates the wound.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Ha im no troll and i thought someone was going to say that because it sounds so rediculous. PM me and ill give you the full conversation between us. Its no troll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zande4 wrote:
You could always snipe the Grimoir bearer with a Vindicare on an Icarus Lascannon before it even comes to this.

Look out sir 2+ wound like to have a word with you

Vindicares care not for your Look Out, Sir!

...int eh GK FAQ, in case youre wondering where

No matter what, the player controlling the vindicare allocates the wound.

Oh ok then. In a tournament that came up they ruled it did not ignore that, but they didnt have the faq so thats good to know.

THats a poorly run tournament then - with smartphones a plenty, there is no real excuse any longer for not having every FAQ either already available, or just a few clicks and a download away.

Anytime I TO I have all FAQs updated that morning, and have them on phone / tablet for reference if I need to make a ruling. My memory isnt good enough to remember every ruling, as some are just crazy....

Ya...Assassin kills...Easy...

I love it when someone calls a person "slow" but then misspells things everywhere.

Well it is not really as easy as you think killing the grimoir bearer with a vindicare. The grimoir bearer still usually has a 4+ cover save with re-roll 1s, and sometimes fateweaver re-roll. Depending on the rest of the list (or rolls) sometimes also has Invisibility etc.

 Condas wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Even then, it would be 2+, not 2+ rerollable.

Screamers are Tzeentch demons and therefore reroll failed save throws of 1. With the 2++ that makes all failed saves reroll since you can only fail on 1.

My thought is that the 2+ wouldn't be rerolable because doesn't Dark Excommunion get rid of the Daemon of Tzeentcg bonuses?

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Condas wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Even then, it would be 2+, not 2+ rerollable.

Screamers are Tzeentch demons and therefore reroll failed save throws of 1. With the 2++ that makes all failed saves reroll since you can only fail on 1.

My thought is that the 2+ wouldn't be rerolable because doesn't Dark Excommunion get rid of the Daemon of Tzeentcg bonuses?

Read the thread. It's already been clarified that it isn't a power, therefore it's not removed by DE.

It's a moot point anyway, seeing as neither Draigo or the Paladin have DE.

Dark Excommunication only affects Gifts. Per the codex, Gifts are:
Ranged Weapons, Melee Weapons, Attributes, Steeds (which are not affected by DE), Icons/Instruments, Artefacts, Rewards, Loci, and Psychic Powers.

Daemon of "X" is not a Gift and therefore is unaffected.