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 Iechine wrote:
^ I didnt mention competitive at all...

I meant built in deficiencies that are a detriment to an army. The rules are right there, 100% legal, so it becomes a task of binding your own hands behind your back and using morals to decide how much is too much. And once you start doing that it quickly scales out of proportion.

Yea and that is already in 40k. I can play marines and be a dick using the best supplements and best units stacking. I can do this with every book. Not sure what your problem is. Are you finding it annoying that you can't have free reign and rely on the designers to keep balance in check? Because if thats the case I guess you are playing the wrong game.

I have played this game for 20 years (since I was 10) and at no point have the rules been balanced like that. As an example I played DE for 12 years until they got an update. Until then they were incredibly hard to use and rare because they were so out of date, once the new book first hit people thought they were broken. GW does a terrible job at keeping their rules in check, even with a rapid release schedule they won't so it because tha'ts always been expected from the players by them. By that I mean player responsibility.

What's really funny is that if you get more than 1 Sacrifice, yeah you can summon Heralds of Slaanesh who can be upgraded to be Psyker Mastery level 1 or take a damn Chariot.

Also, Blue Scribes are broken right now, you can just roll on the Daemon Chart. on a 4+ you get a free Daemon, it's better than Portaglyph.

Or they can automatically become possessed by a Greater Daemon.

No one has used Blue Scribes yet.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
^ I didnt mention competitive at all...

I meant built in deficiencies that are a detriment to an army. The rules are right there, 100% legal, so it becomes a task of binding your own hands behind your back and using morals to decide how much is too much. And once you start doing that it quickly scales out of proportion.

Yea and that is already in 40k. I can play marines and be a dick using the best supplements and best units stacking. I can do this with every book. Not sure what your problem is. Are you finding it annoying that you can't have free reign and rely on the designers to keep balance in check? Because if thats the case I guess you are playing the wrong game.

I have played this game for 20 years (since I was 10) and at no point have the rules been balanced like that. As an example I played DE for 12 years until they got an update. Until then they were incredibly hard to use and rare because they were so out of date, once the new book first hit people thought they were broken. GW does a terrible job at keeping their rules in check, even with a rapid release schedule they won't so it because tha'ts always been expected from the players by them. By that I mean player responsibility.

Cool, I understand now. Dont be disappointed that a never before mechanic has been introduced that allows the production of game breaking 500 and beyond points worth of units, making an even matchup impossible in the process, because Red Corsair has been playing for 20 years.

Hollismason wrote:
What's really funny is that if you get more than 1 Sacrifice, yeah you can summon Heralds of Slaanesh who can be upgraded to be Psyker Mastery level 1 or take a damn Chariot.

Also, Blue Scribes are broken right now, you can just roll on the Daemon Chart. on a 4+ you get a free Daemon, it's better than Portaglyph.

Or they can automatically become possessed by a Greater Daemon.

No one has used Blue Scribes yet.

Blue Scribes' rules changed in the new book. They're still crap.

Unless you have a new book or a faq is there a faq I don't know about. I think I am using the correct edition.

The Blue Scribes say they cast a power automatically, but it may be denied if allowed. Since all powers can be denied, and you deny by rolling as many 6's as there were successful rolls, and the number of successful rolls for the Scribes was zero, your opponent needs zero sixes to DTW anything they cast. Therefore any power they cast is automatically denied if your opponent chooses.

Bad form not having a FaQ up immediately for the many scenarios where it is needed. Especially as it pertains to a brand new phase in the game.

I imagine the Blue Scribes will count as rolling as many successes as the power requires.

And I'm sure there's an argument for no denying atm, given that the rule says it can be denied if the target is entitled to do so.

It gets worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMAAP6HWfw&feature=youtu.be

And I marvel at how badly I was torn apart pre-release because this could be seen coming a mile away. Only thing I got wrong was, that it is even WORSE than I had predicted.

And here, my favorite comment on the thread in the OP by no other than the author:

"So after about 5 games and seeing how the new mechanics play out my overall impression of the game is that we will have to rewrite a big chunk of the game in order to play it in tournaments. The game as it is right out of the book is borderline unplayable. They fixed a lot of the little problems, but the new problems they made break the game without some changes. For example, unbound armies, multiple primary FoC, using the mission cards without restrictions, etc. are not conducive to a fair game.

Some changes that will probably me needed: limits on FoC. Taking an army with one daemons, one grey knight and one Tyranid detachment is incredibly stupid. Beyond creating crazy combos, it’s just not fun. Or, more mundane, but equally fun killing, an army of all daemons heralds that summon thousands of points of daemons in one turn. Also stupid. Limits on warp charge. Unlimitted warp charge creates comically unbalanced situations wherein one player has over 30 warp charge and the other has 5 or so. It means one player essentially has no psychic phase. The mission cards on their own are incredible unbalanced. You often end up with situations where one player draws a good hand and the other doesn’t, and then the game is already decided.

We will also have to limit some of the powers possibly. Limiting warp.charge may solve it, but the malefic powers are crazy.

Invisibility is nutso. That and the fact that the 2+ reroll save didn’t go away means deathstars are better than ever in many ways. Again, we have to limit warp charge to begin to stop this or the game is going to degenerate into combo units again.

More play testing is needed but so far the game as is, is about 100 times worse than it was for tournament play. With limitations on the crazy stuff, the are tighter in many ways."

7th edition is a complete and utter train wreck. First battle reports are already proving it. This is only going to get worse.

Gotta love people paying a massive premium of $85+ for a game the community is going to have to fix because it is so broken..... biggest rip off in wargame history!

Surely it can't be that bad?

Why didn't the Imperial Guard player try to dispel the summons instead of the other powers?

 Jambles wrote:
Surely it can't be that bad?

Why didn't the Imperial Guard player try to dispel the summons instead of the other powers?

He would never have managed it.

 Jambles wrote:
Surely it can't be that bad?

Why didn't the Imperial Guard player try to dispel the summons instead of the other powers?

To dispel the summoning requires three sixes, which works out to eighteen dice.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They didn't even play the rules correctly. This is meaningless.

yup...


people wont let the fact that they played totally wrong get in the way of their outrage however...

 easysauce wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They didn't even play the rules correctly. This is meaningless.

yup...


people wont let the fact that they played totally wrong get in the way of their outrage however...

It balances out the people who voluntarily wear blinders and think that even a slight possibility of being matched against a 2500pt army with your 1500pt force is somehow fair because you need to roll for it. It's a crap and short sighted mechanic that doesn't belong in a game without prior knowledge and agreement... you know... that forge the narrative. Instead, we get crappy cash grab mechanics to choke on the narrative down your throat instead.

 easysauce wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They didn't even play the rules correctly. This is meaningless.

yup...


people wont let the fact that they played totally wrong get in the way of their outrage however...

What did we get wrong that invalidates this, exactly?

 warboss wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They didn't even play the rules correctly. This is meaningless.

yup...


people wont let the fact that they played totally wrong get in the way of their outrage however...

It balances out the people who voluntarily wear blinders and think that even a slight possibility of being matched against a 2500pt army with your 1500pt force is somehow fair because you need to roll for it. It's a crap and short sighted mechanic that doesn't belong in a game without prior knowledge and agreement... you know... that forge the narrative. Instead, we get crappy cash grab mechanics to choke on the narrative down your throat instead.

I have to remember that - "choke on the narrative".

Thanks.

well considering that
A: 4+ heralds is not allowed (though no faq for this)

and

B: we are not even sure every single unit of demons gets to summon (and conversely, that every single GK rhino gets a strD weapon)

yes, I would say its jumping the gun to play as if the above were 100% RAW.

 Iechine wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
^ I didnt mention competitive at all...

I meant built in deficiencies that are a detriment to an army. The rules are right there, 100% legal, so it becomes a task of binding your own hands behind your back and using morals to decide how much is too much. And once you start doing that it quickly scales out of proportion.

Yea and that is already in 40k. I can play marines and be a dick using the best supplements and best units stacking. I can do this with every book. Not sure what your problem is. Are you finding it annoying that you can't have free reign and rely on the designers to keep balance in check? Because if thats the case I guess you are playing the wrong game.

I have played this game for 20 years (since I was 10) and at no point have the rules been balanced like that. As an example I played DE for 12 years until they got an update. Until then they were incredibly hard to use and rare because they were so out of date, once the new book first hit people thought they were broken. GW does a terrible job at keeping their rules in check, even with a rapid release schedule they won't so it because tha'ts always been expected from the players by them. By that I mean player responsibility.

Cool, I understand now. Dont be disappointed that a never before mechanic has been introduced that allows the production of game breaking 500 and beyond points worth of units, making an even matchup impossible in the process, because Red Corsair has been playing for 20 years.

Hey be bitter and petty all you want. Eventually every long term player goes through the stages of denial. 40k isn't going to change any time soon.

Be disappointed all you want. That's understandable, but pouting and whining about your inability to "bind your own hands and morals" is ridiculous. Christ it isn't an abortion decision. Here's a hint, if you think certain unit combos aren't fun for your opponent then change your list and don't be a dick.

 easysauce wrote:
well considering that
A: 4+ heralds is not allowed (though no faq for this)

and

B: we are not even sure every single unit of demons gets to summon (and conversely, that every single GK rhino gets a strD weapon)

yes, I would say its jumping the gun to play as if the above were 100% RAW.

So, in other words, we are not sure they got it wrong.

A.) 4 heralds are COMPLETELY LEGIT, under the new BattleForged rules. 4 Heralds of Tzeentch = 180 points, 8 units of Pink Horrors = 720 points for a total of 900 points. All completely legal under the new rules.

But to defend by saying the rules are wrong and they haven't FAQ'd it yet, so they are wrong is a very poor defense. It just so happens, it is perfectly legal, whether you like it or not.

B.) Rules specifically say that unless the units says the psycher cannot take Daemonology or are Tyranids, then they are assumed to have it. They took the time to clarify the exclusion of Tyranids, but did not do so for Summoned Daemons because daemons can in fact take it.. So, how can anyone assert when it is wrong when it is clearly spelled out in the rules.

It is a HUGE leap to think that B is wrong when they in fact did this in the Battle Reports from GW themselves. I would more likely bet a unit of summoned unit of deamons is in fact, intended to summon. If they didn't want that, they could have CLEARLY spelled it out in the BRB, but instead they CLEARLY spelled out the opposite.

 easysauce wrote:
well considering that
A: 4+ heralds is not allowed (though no faq for this)

and

B: we are not even sure every single unit of demons gets to summon (and conversely, that every single GK rhino gets a strD weapon)

yes, I would say its jumping the gun to play as if the above were 100% RAW.

A. What? I see two Heralds in that list. What's the problem?

B: Those of us who have the rules book and the Daemon codex are sure that every single unit of Daemons get to summon. It's pretty clear. It's also pretty clear that GK Rhinos do not get Vortex of Doom (or any other Sanctic power for that matter).

Page references, for your benefit:

Codex: Chaos Daemons, page 38.

Codex: Grey Knights, page 33.

The Rules, page 23 and page 28.

slaede wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They didn't even play the rules correctly. This is meaningless.

yup...


people wont let the fact that they played totally wrong get in the way of their outrage however...

What did we get wrong that invalidates this, exactly?

I was wondering this myself.

I think they are referring to horrors summoning which from my few reads through is legal. There is literally nothing in the demon codex or the rulebook saying horrors can't roll on the new table. And in fact they get their primaris for free.

I agree with you Corsair. I at first bought the arguments that Horrors can't summon. But after reading the rules, the argument holds no water. If Horrors can't take Summoning, no unit in the game can.

 Red Corsair wrote:

slaede wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They didn't even play the rules correctly. This is meaningless.

yup...


people wont let the fact that they played totally wrong get in the way of their outrage however...

What did we get wrong that invalidates this, exactly?

I was wondering this myself.

I think they are referring to horrors summoning which from my few reads through is legal. There is literally nothing in the demon codex or the rulebook saying horrors can't roll on the new table. And in fact they get their primaris for free.

Actually, the rulebook makes it pretty clear that they in fact CAN role on Daemonology". It specifically says, that unless specified that they cannot in the Codex or are Tyranids they can. Since they took the time to clarify Tyranids, I think they could have also said summoned Daemons also, if they in fact intended on excluding them - but they didn't because they in fact can take those powers.

slaede wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
Surely it can't be that bad?

Why didn't the Imperial Guard player try to dispel the summons instead of the other powers?

To dispel the summoning requires three sixes, which works out to eighteen dice.

YIKES. I thought it was one six out of all the dispel dice to delete the whole cast. Does that mean if the casting player throws 10 dice at a power and gets four, five etc. 4+'s, you'd have to get four, five etc. sixes to deny it?

Slightly off topic, I know, sorry.

 Jambles wrote:

slaede wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
Surely it can't be that bad?

Why didn't the Imperial Guard player try to dispel the summons instead of the other powers?

To dispel the summoning requires three sixes, which works out to eighteen dice.

YIKES. I thought it was one six out of all the dispel dice to delete the whole cast. Does that mean if the casting player throws 10 dice at a power and gets four, five etc. 4+'s, you'd have to get four, five etc. sixes to deny it?

Slightly off topic, I know, sorry.

Yes, for every successful die for casting you have to roll a 6. If any get through, the power goes off. So if they roll 4 successes and you roll only three on the deny attempt, the power successfully goes off. That's why the comment I posted above about being overpowered by summoning when one has 20 dice and the other has 5. You just can't stop it.

the same page that says everyone gets daemonology says GK get it...

not sure why you are saying every demon unit gets all the powers but no GK do ... the way the BRB is worded, just because you start with a power, does not exclude you from making rolls, as all the GK powers are "non tree" just like force is, they do not prevent rolls on the daemonology tree.

if daemon BOP's get daemonology powers, GK BOP's do as well...

 easysauce wrote:
the same page that says everyone gets daemonology says GK get it...

not sure why you are saying every demon unit gets all the powers but no GK do ... the way the BRB is worded, just because you start with a power, does not exclude you from making rolls, as all the GK powers are "non tree" just like force is, they do not prevent rolls on the daemonology tree.

if daemon BOP's get daemonology powers, GK BOP's do as well...

Yes, within the limits of the table for the army. GK has access to Sanctic and are forbidden from Maleific. Likewise, Chaos Daemons have the opposite. Still has to be a category allowed by the army as specified in the rules. Remember, Daemonic is two schools. All but GK and Daemons have access to both schools and Tyranids have neither.

right, but why are you saying daemon BOP's get to cast malefic powers, but GK BOP's dont get to cast santics ones...

one cannot be true without the other, so if we have every BOP/psychic pilot vehicle from demons able to summon, then the same is true of every BOP/PP vehicle in GK being able to cast strD weapons.

 easysauce wrote:
right, but why are you saying daemon BOP's get to cast malefic powers, but GK BOP's dont get to cast santics ones...

one cannot be true without the other, so if we have every BOP/psychic pilot vehicle from demons able to summon, then the same is true of every BOP/PP vehicle in GK being able to cast strD weapons.

In the comparison between the two books do they all roll on a Psychic Chart or do some get assigned a power?

 Red Corsair wrote:


Hey be bitter and petty all you want. Eventually every long term player goes through the stages of denial. 40k isn't going to change any time soon.

Be disappointed all you want. That's understandable, but pouting and whining about your inability to "bind your own hands and morals" is ridiculous. Christ it isn't an abortion decision. Here's a hint, if you think certain unit combos aren't fun for your opponent then change your list and don't be a dick.

Not liking a game mechanic and voicing it on a discussion forum doesnt equate to 'pouting and whining', and pointing out that it becomes a player decision to draw lines that are entirely discretionary but not limited by rules is lame with TFG out there isnt me making an abortion decision. In your 20+ long arduous years maybe you've encountered people with differing opinions in the game, hopefully you didnt immediately make it a pissing contest then.