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I think you're talking about the brain-stem and action-reflexes, mate.

Anyone who devotes all of their time to perfecting one task is going to be a savant at it. Marines not only have that dedication to one task, they have multiple human lifespans to perfect it. If I had to make a guess, I'd estimate the baseline marine at maybe 140% of average intelligence, but a lot of that comes down to the neophyte training winnowing out anyone who can't keep up.

The spine gives the command to perform the action before the brain gets the signal. It's so that it doesn't take as long for you to react to whatever prompted the reflex. It's also why people don't realize the pain until they've pulled their limb away.

The question of if marines are smart or not has suddenly become do they have brain implants. Thread has now begun the slow decent into derailment xD

 tmo38 wrote:
in the book Fulgrim by Graham McNeill math ,medical and combat expertise in all space marines are seen but some chapters also gain the intelligence to really appreciate other items like art ,an some are even artist themselves including some of the primearchs ex: Fulgrim paints and sculpts , Leman Russ does Taxidermy , Ferrus Manus does blacksmithing

Many Space Marines also take up hobbies outside of war, for example Ahriman used to make his own wine. The Thousand Sons were also an extremely 'smart' chapter, and were very into their books. I imagine it really depends on the chapter, for example if you compared a Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerer to a Space Wolf Blood Claw there's going to be a vast gap in intelligence.

Given space marine canidates are screened for certin traits, I suspect intelligence is something they are screened for. at the very least the SMs proably don't recruit morons. so their intelligence is proably due to that, a slightly higher average then the human norm AT LEAST. Likewise all we know is they are screened for traits that will allow them to respond well to the augmentation process.
For all we know "being a genius" is required for them to retain all the info from the hypno indoc. I think it's unlikely, but I definatly think we can't assume SMs don't screen for a minimum intelligence.

SMs have entire worlds to recruit from, and proably only need to recruit at a slow pace most of the time. basicly they can afford to wait until they find a kid whose got the potential to become well... batman.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Reaction speed and intelligence are not the same thing. Reaction speeds are governed by lots of things. Intelligence is not necessarily one of them. A Fly can react to stimuli much faster than I can, and can thus usually avoid getting swatted, that doesn't make it more intelligent.

Nothing about any of the geneseed implants/organs says anything about increasing intelligence.

>The Point.



>Your Head.

Whoosh. It doesn't matter if reaction speeds don't equal intelligence. The fact that they can have microsecond and nanosecond reaction speeds means their brains are directly modified far beyond human capability. Which also explains the intelligence quotes. But no. You don't suddenly start dodging superosnic projectiles and instantly observing your environment in a nanosecond just because of some hypnotherapy. That needs alteration to be capable of, because the human brain simply can't do that.

Which, again, doesn't matter for the purposes of this question. Your reaction speeds have feth-all to do with your intelligence. The Marine has super-human reflexes. No one is debating that. It's simply entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

 Psienesis wrote:
Which, again, doesn't matter for the purposes of this question. Your reaction speeds have feth-all to do with your intelligence. The Marine has super-human reflexes. No one is debating that. It's simply entirely irrelevant to the conversation.

The short text didn't actually say the nanosecond was his reaction speed, it was the time it took to process the information in front of his eyes. It goes on to mention he could draw and fire a kill shot in less than 1.5 seconds.

A process otherwise known as reflexes. And normal humans do exactly the same thing. Say someone throws a ball at you and you try to catch it. The maths for calculating the ball's trajectory and then moving your hand to intercept the ball at exactly the right point in time in its trajectory is incredibly complex. And yet, before the ball has come to a stop because you're busy doing all the calculations your subconcious has taken care of all that and you actually catch the ball.
AFAIC, all those descriptions of the marine decision process are actually descriptions of his subconcious processing all the available information just as a human would do.
And given some of the incredibly stupid decisions space marines are sometimes described to make, it makes no sense for them to be on average much smarter than the average human being.

Also, reaction speeds of a nanosecond are completely fethtarded, unless marines are equipped with a completely new nervous system. It takes longer than that for an impulse to travel from your eye to the brain.

I cannot look at a column of tanks and immediately know how, where and when to engange and destroy it, but I can look at all the equipment I need and the space I have for a project and almost immediately have a pretty good idea what the most efficient way to set things up would be, what to start with and what goes where for the whole project.

@the debate about spinal reaction vs brain

The signal doesn't reach the brain. I learned the system that works it at aged 15, just a year and half ago. Don't quote me but I believe it is a synapse. The signal travels up the nerve, stimulates the production of a chemical at the other end, which drifts across a small void. Once this chemical is detected, a signal travels down your leg, telling your knee to jerk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the main debate

You don't survive war by being stupid. This isn't world war one or the IG, where all you need to know is what direction to run when the Sergeant says "Charge!" Stuff like that requires no intelligence to simply run at the enemy and hope you make it.
If a marine wasn't intelligent, he wouldn't survive his training. His first stage of training is stealth ops as a Scout. He will not survive if he is not smart enough to hide when necessary, which guy to snipe first, important targets to mark with Locator Beacons for teleport assault. Marines need to be of a high level of intelligence.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Marines explicitly have their mental abilities heightened during their indoctrination, meaning that a child who was previously of average intelligence will now come across as largely above-average in intelligence. It varies depending on the Marine, however, as noted.

That certainly helps explain how sting stupid feudal world thug pre-teens can become average intelligence marines. Marines are selected for their potential combat abilities, not their intelligence. A system or process of bringing them up to a point where they can effectively operate as a unit and use high tech weapons and vehicles would be necessary and essential.

Quotes aside, logic demands that they are extremely intelligent.

I am much more knowledgeable at 34 than I was at 14. Our brains are almost like organic computers, they accrue knowledge and store it.

I always thought that was why Aragorn was so good at ranging and fighting, all that experience in a youthful body.

So if the fethers live for hundreds of years, surely they are going to be clever bastards?

 PhillyT wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Marines explicitly have their mental abilities heightened during their indoctrination, meaning that a child who was previously of average intelligence will now come across as largely above-average in intelligence. It varies depending on the Marine, however, as noted.

That certainly helps explain how sting stupid feudal world thug pre-teens can become average intelligence marines. Marines are selected for their potential combat abilities, not their intelligence. A system or process of bringing them up to a point where they can effectively operate as a unit and use high tech weapons and vehicles would be necessary and essential.

Just cause people are from feudal worlds doesn't mean they're stupid just under educated. if even that. a hive worlder has no better idea how a machine works then a feudal worlder does in the 40k setting.

as for being picked for combast abilities, yes and know. they also have a large amount of genetic screening as well. we have no idea what this means, as I said it's likely part of that screening is "is this person smart eneugh to be a Marine?" in short it's not something they deliberatly pick for no, but I'm sure they have a minimum intelligence before they'll bother with someone. I mean we're talking recruiting every generation numbers from a planetary population that likely numbers in the single digets. this means a SM chapter is proably really picky and those who make it as gonna be those as close to perfect as they can find.

Taking a feudal resident and teaching them to use technology on the level required of a space marine is a significant jump, even over a hive who at least lives within the same technology.

I'm pretty sure intelligence isn't a part of the first level of screening process. Ragnar, for instance was first recruited because as a boy, when his tribe was raided he grabbed an axe and started kicking butt and taking names before being wounded.
Similar selection criteria apply to other (primitive) recruitment worlds, suggesting that the primary initial selection criterium is physical prowess.
Even the Ultramarines, although their selection process is more formalised, initially select only the greatest of Ultramar's athletes, not their mathematical geniuses.

Bran Dawri wrote:
I'm pretty sure intelligence isn't a part of the first level of screening process. Ragnar, for instance was first recruited because as a boy, when his tribe was raided he grabbed an axe and started kicking butt and taking names before being wounded.
Similar selection criteria apply to other (primitive) recruitment worlds, suggesting that the primary initial selection criterium is physical prowess.
Even the Ultramarines, although their selection process is more formalised, initially select only the greatest of Ultramar's athletes, not their mathematical geniuses.

Depends on the Chapter/Legion, But I wouldn't even bring the Space Wolves into a debate about Space Marine Intelligence.

walkertreat wrote:
Ive always wondered about how smart an average space marine really is. Is every marine some sort of genius? I dont mean a military or tactical genius. But one of mathematics or science?

No. There is no Space Marine implant that improves intelligence, and they are not chosen for intelligence in recruitment in most chapters (rather, they are chosen for fighting ability and/or ferocity in most chapters). Their intelligence in all three matters-- military, mathematics, or science-- is simply average. They are likely better educated than the average person, but that's separate from intelligence.

 Melissia wrote:

walkertreat wrote:
Ive always wondered about how smart an average space marine really is. Is every marine some sort of genius? I dont mean a military or tactical genius. But one of mathematics or science?

No. There is no Space Marine implant that improves intelligence, and they are not chosen for intelligence in recruitment in most chapters (rather, they are chosen for fighting ability and/or ferocity in most chapters). Their intelligence in all three matters-- military, mathematics, or science-- is simply average. They are likely better educated than the average person, but that's separate from intelligence.

Their indoctrination explicitly awakens the latent power of their minds. The consequence is that the average Marine would come across and effectively be more intelligent than the average Imperial.

 mattyrm wrote:
Quotes aside, logic demands that they are extremely intelligent.

I am much more knowledgeable at 34 than I was at 14. Our brains are almost like organic computers, they accrue knowledge and store it.

I always thought that was why Aragorn was so good at ranging and fighting, all that experience in a youthful body.

So if the fethers live for hundreds of years, surely they are going to be clever bastards?

None of what you said here has anything to do with intelligence, simply experience and education. A person of purely average intelligence but greater age and an average lifestyle will know more about more things than someone much younger, much less-experienced, but much more intelligent, simply due to exposure and experience with a wider range of things. This does not make the older person more intelligent, simply more experienced.

It doesn't help matters that there's so many definitions of what "intelligence" is.