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I am curious as to what the $300 retooling would have bought and if that expense would have been throw-away or decent and practical enhancements to your collection.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I think that sometimes it's nice to try a different flavor of ice cream.

Chocolate now! Chocolate forever!

C'mon, man, don't be so pedestrian. Chocolate Raspberry Truffle! Usually 100 calories more per scoop than 'normal' flavors.


@BraveRifles:
Good luck in the future.

 BraveRifles wrote:

 whitedragon wrote:
If you're running GK with an allied Space Marine "Centstar", can't you just take a Space Marine Librarian or Tigurius and get the same net effect? That's alot less than 300 dollars.

Tiggy is already in the list. Typically Tiggy goes after Invis while the GK Libby goes after GoI. Tiggy could go after GoI but would limit my ability to roll up invis.

Maybe the TO wants to stop exactly what you are trying to do, and the other attendees are thankful for it.

 Blackmoor wrote:
Maybe the TO wants to stop exactly what you are trying to do, and the other attendees are thankful for it.

I couldn't imagine why

I'd choose not to attend. Who knows what the TO will want to implement as a blatant rules change the next time around.

I don't have much sympathy for centurionstar biting the dust... I'd be very interested in an event disallowing allied characters joining units.

 insaniak wrote:

 zachwho wrote:
there's nothing broken or spam cheese about battlebrothers joining their.... battlebrothers... in a combat game..

There is when half of the armies in the game can use allies in this way and the other half can't, for no reason other than the fluff says so.


For the actual topic - #3 if you actually want to go. #1 if you don't.

This. And it's poorly used fluff, too - Blood Axes regularly hire themselves out to guardsmen, yet becaue most orks don't and bloodaxes don't have their own book, your bloodaxe force has to stand alone. It wouldn't necessarily make sense to call them "battle brothers", but convenience surely fits - I personally think all armies should be allies of convenience (i.e;, we forget stages of allies and just let every army sorta ally with every other army. that'd be fine, too.

Let's rewrite the rules to suit ourselves.

It's just a bit melodramatic to say this "invalidates" an army, when said army relies on an allied character joining and granting them a special rules gimmick (like joining baron to seer council for hit-and-run was).

You can still run centurions, your army isn't invalidated. That particular gimmick is, so as many have said, adjust or don't go. Which to do just depends on how much you want to attend the event. Seemingly, based on your posting in this vein here, it's not that much... so just wait and go to another. No loss to either side, then, assuming they sell out anyway, and you can choose another more to your liking.

 RiTides wrote:
It's just a bit melodramatic to say this "invalidates" an army, when said army relies on an allied character joining and granting them a special rules gimmick (like joining baron to seer council for hit-and-run was).

You can still run centurions, your army isn't invalidated. That particular gimmick is, so as many have said, adjust or don't go. Which to do just depends on how much you want to attend the event. Seemingly, based on your posting in this vein here, it's not that much... so just wait and go to another. No loss to either side, then, assuming they sell out anyway, and you can choose another more to your liking.

It invalidates the army he spent time, money, and a deal of effort designing, building, and painting. While not invalidating an army, in terms of "codex", it does invalidate his personal army. He built it, painted, and designed it with playing it in mind because it is a legal army. So yes, it was invalidated and I see no melodrama in his original post whatsoever.

 RiTides wrote:
It's just a bit melodramatic to say this "invalidates" an army, when said army relies on an allied character joining and granting them a special rules gimmick (like joining baron to seer council for hit-and-run was).

You can still run centurions, your army isn't invalidated. That particular gimmick is, so as many have said, adjust or don't go. Which to do just depends on how much you want to attend the event. Seemingly, based on your posting in this vein here, it's not that much... so just wait and go to another. No loss to either side, then, assuming they sell out anyway, and you can choose another more to your liking.

I agree

I also plan on attending the Michigan GT, I was even on there facebook causing a ruckus because of how stupid this rule is.

At first they were not even going to allow Knights. They changed that.

Sadly I am going to still go simply because I preregistered and paid already. Buddy is going paid as well and the hotel so... kidna SOL on that BUT....

I am SUPER annoyed at this. I will NEVER go to another event like this.

Wow, just wow

Is this what the 40k player base has sunk to?

Oh no, I cant build the cheeziest most unfun to play against lists to curb stomp with anymore. I bet someone else will come up with a cheezy list that gets around this rule and I will have tough games!

You know what these tournaments need more than anything? They need the return of army comp scores. So these kinds of lists cant ever get past 50th place.

OP, I have no sympathy for your planned army list, and if that is your regular army you built and refuse to deviate from in your local meta I WEEP for anyone playing a normal list. They are probably 0 and 115 against this kind of stuff.

They should just do 2 major tournaments in the area. Regular with sensible rules, and updated ard boyz so the fans of 2 transcendent ctan lists and khorne lord of skulls with invisibility buffs can have a field day kicking the crap out of each other. May the chedderest of them all win!

 Orock wrote:


Is this what the 40k player base has sunk to?

Yes.

 Orock wrote:
Wow, just wow

Is this what the 40k player base has sunk to?

Oh no, I cant build the cheeziest most unfun to play against lists to curb stomp with anymore. I bet someone else will come up with a cheezy list that gets around this rule and I will have tough games!

You know what these tournaments need more than anything? They need the return of army comp scores. So these kinds of lists cant ever get past 50th place.

OP, I have no sympathy for your planned army list, and if that is your regular army you built and refuse to deviate from in your local meta I WEEP for anyone playing a normal list. They are probably 0 and 115 against this kind of stuff.

They should just do 2 major tournaments in the area. Regular with sensible rules, and updated ard boyz so the fans of 2 transcendent ctan lists and khorne lord of skulls with invisibility buffs can have a field day kicking the crap out of each other. May the chedderest of them all win!

This.

id be happy to go to a tournament where I dont have to face Centurionstar or Jetseer, or Beaststar.

Fine by me.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Let's rewrite the rules to suit ourselves.

When the current rules are grossly unfair to half the armies based upon terrible fluff and were not designed for competitive play... you betcha. If the 'correct' way to play is terrible for everyone who doesn't netdeck the top tier codexes, then that invalidates thousands of other people's armies. Allies were the worst thing ever done for 40k and the allies matrix makes no sense and is arbitrarily unfair. I welcome any event who wants to take a whack at making it better because they can't make it worse. Sounds like TOs are catering to their playerbase as there are plenty of people perfectly ok that the OP will be sitting at home pounding sand by himself and not attending the event.

While there are far more creative ways to limit the cheddar without punishing fellow hobbyists deliberately, the event is the TOs to run, and the turnout and feedback will directly impact his choices in the future. Knocking him for running the event the way he wants is not as effective as constructive suggestion, speaking from experience.

As for those glad to see no brostars, expect to get your poo pushed in by something equally "cheddar" regardless. Some percentage of attendees are going to max within what's legal either way.

Again, there are more creative ways to broaden what's good and effective vs only moving the bar around. But hating on people who spent money and time on lists you don't personally approve of is being just that: hateful. Easy to be on the internet, I guess.

MVBrandt, that's an unfair characterization. There were a lot of posts "hating"on the TO, which while you responded to, you saved stronger language for those "hating" on the player.

It's reasonable to criticize the fielding of this kind of list without hating the person. What I'm saying is, their army is far from invalidated- as posted on page 1, they could field Tigirius or a normal SM librarian instead of allying in a GK one.

To act is if their list is totally ruined by this, again, strikes me as melodramatic. Many players want precisely those kinds of combos limited, just look at the above half dozen posters. Obviously the OP doesn't, so the easiest thing is to choose another event if they are absolutely married to that allied character combo.

There are going to be more events limiting shenanigans like this as players push back on GW for throwing all theme out the window. I agree with MVBrandt that there are more elegant ways to do it, but some of the reactions here were like kids throwing their toys out of the pram. Like any event with restrictions (which is almost all of them in 7th ed!) the bar is moved slightly by their rulings. Adjust, or run the best list you can as-is with a normal librarian, but the idea that you have no effective list to run when all the other BB ally combo deathstars are facing the same restriction is what struck me as off.

 RiTides wrote:
MVBrandt, that's an unfair characterization. There were a lot of posts "hating"on the TO, which while you responded to, you saved stronger language for those "hating" on the player.

It's reasonable to criticize the fielding of this kind of list without hating the person. What I'm saying is, their army is far from invalidated- as posted on page 1, they could field Tigirius or a normal SM librarian instead of allying in a GK one.

To act is if their list is totally ruined by this, again, strikes me as melodramatic. Many players want precisely those kinds of combos limited, just look at the above half dozen posters. Obviously the OP doesn't, so the easiest thing is to choose another event if they are absolutely married to that allied character combo.

There are going to be more events limiting shenanigans like this as players push back on GW for throwing all theme out the window. I agree with MVBrandt that there are more elegant ways to do it, but some of the reactions here were like kids throwing their toys out of the pram. Like any event with restrictions (which is almost all of them in 7th ed!) the bar is moved slightly by their rulings. Adjust, or run the best list you can as-is with a normal librarian, but the idea that you have no effective list to run when all the other BB ally combo deathstars are facing the same restriction is what struck me as off.

Just as invalidated as if the tourney was changed to 1500 points. It does seem a little melodramatic when in the end we are really talking about having to choose gate or invis instead of just getting both. On the other hand, there are plenty of gk units that could benefit from the gk Libby's powers even without being attached to the cent star. At the very least, the army list stays the same since the op said he already had a gk Libby and twiggy in the list. The tactics change a little bit but the army just doesn't have a super death star anymore. By swapping out the gk Libby for another character, the op could attempt to mitigate that issue as well.

Incognito15 wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Wow, just wow

Is this what the 40k player base has sunk to?

Oh no, I cant build the cheeziest most unfun to play against lists to curb stomp with anymore. I bet someone else will come up with a cheezy list that gets around this rule and I will have tough games!

You know what these tournaments need more than anything? They need the return of army comp scores. So these kinds of lists cant ever get past 50th place.

OP, I have no sympathy for your planned army list, and if that is your regular army you built and refuse to deviate from in your local meta I WEEP for anyone playing a normal list. They are probably 0 and 115 against this kind of stuff.

They should just do 2 major tournaments in the area. Regular with sensible rules, and updated ard boyz so the fans of 2 transcendent ctan lists and khorne lord of skulls with invisibility buffs can have a field day kicking the crap out of each other. May the chedderest of them all win!

This.

id be happy to go to a tournament where I dont have to face Centurionstar or Jetseer, or Beaststar.

Fine by me.

Third (or possibly fourth)

Yeah I think there should be something that poses restrictions to either players who use these type of lists, or should have a penalty for use in the tourney or the games they play.

Currently I am participating a doubles tourney as we speak, my force is Orks and my friend is playing Tyranids and there is one small catch.. We have to follow allies restrictions.. So me and my ally have to follow the "come the Apocalypse" restrictions..

Meanwhile in the top 3 places we have a team that uses Eldar Wave serpent spam and Salamander's with Vulkan which follows the drop pod lists of min/maxing out on all types of Meltaguns and Flamers (as the points value is 3000pts with 1500pts per player in a team), now this is not a dig at them personally as they are very nice people, however the lists did really kinda put a bump in the day as you could tell that these lists were designed not just to win but also to curb stomp and table so you have no chance of a possible win.

Tactics were simple: Box the enemy in their deployment zone with drop pods + units, anything that got out the box was met with wave serpents at the backfield..

This meant that unless you had any anti-tank that was outflanking, mass interceptor or any drop pods yourself, you are not going to go far, as it proved in the first game of the match where me and my opponent played that list..

So if there were restrictions or penalties on certain builds such as WS spam, which could have made the game fairer then it would have made the game much more enjoyable, and if I am honest if restrictions are what TO are going for in the future, then I'm glad for it*

*As long as they don't ban FW, FW is not OTT nor OP, just people like to stereotype what they don't know..

You better get use to more and more TOs placing restrictions on tournament games.

GW has said that they do not write rules for tournaments (as we all know), and 7th edition had unleashed a lot of craziness. TOs will attempt to rein that in and impose rules to try to balance the game.

In a friendly game your opponent can tell you if they want to play against a cheesed out army or not, but in a tournament setting they do not have the option of doing that. Trying to create balance more TOs will try put limits on the game whether it is through point limits, missions, time, format, comp, or out right banning of units, combos or armies.

You better get use to changes in tournaments to play in them so you either need to be flexible and adapt, or stay at home. The choice is yours.

The sad part is this is a massive tournament... on par with things like BAO....ATC....LVO.
yet not a single one of those events put in some rule like this....and you know what.... When they did limit something they asked the player base first....

and yeah sorry I want to bring a list that is a winning list?
Do you relish paying a bunch of money to travel somewhere and bring a list you know you'll get stomped with?
sure if you enjoy paying money to lose then go for it...Some of us pay our hard earned money for a competition and a chance to win...
not some whiny persons idea of what they think it should be

Also maybe I would be OK with this... If every codex was on part with each other.... but they arent. Not even close. A bog standard elder or tau list has a much higher win chance then a standard list from almost all other armies. But it's ok... take away my chances of competing... let the op codexs just run rampant because of some stupid house rule

I would love to cancel and not go to this... anyone want my ticket. Half price

 Blackmoor wrote:
You better get use to more and more TOs placing restrictions on tournament games.

GW has said that they do not write rules for tournaments (as we all know), and 7th edition had unleashed a lot of craziness. TOs will attempt to rein that in and impose rules to try to balance the game.

In a friendly game your opponent can tell you if they want to play against a cheesed out army or not, but in a tournament setting they do not have the option of doing that. Trying to create balance more TOs will try put limits on the game whether it is through point limits, missions, time, format, comp, or out right banning of units, combos or armies.

You better get use to changes in tournaments to play in them so you either need to be flexible and adapt, or stay at home. The choice is yours.

TOs should be prepared for lower attendance. It works both ways and it's not like you never played a deathstar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hapes wrote:
The sad part is this is a massive tournament... on par with things like BAO....ATC....LVO.
yet not a single one of those events put in some rule like this....and you know what.... When they did limit something they asked the player base first....

and yeah sorry I want to bring a list that is a winning list?
Do you relish paying a bunch of money to travel somewhere and bring a list you know you'll get stomped with?
sure if you enjoy paying money to lose then go for it...Some of us pay our hard earned money for a competition and a chance to win...
not some whiny persons idea of what they think it should be

Also maybe I would be OK with this... If every codex was on part with each other.... but they arent. Not even close. A bog standard elder or tau list has a much higher win chance then a standard list from almost all other armies. But it's ok... take away my chances of competing... let the op codexs just run rampant because of some stupid house rule

I would love to cancel and not go to this... anyone want my ticket. Half price

Just drop and you'll still save money.

Hapes wrote:
The sad part is this is a massive tournament... on par with things like BAO....ATC....LVO. yet not a single one of those events put in some rule like this....

It is not on par with those events that you mentioned. Most tournaments barring the very largest ones are mostly local affairs and the TOs should know there constituents, and know what they want. It's quite possible that after those events everyone will have a negative opinion about their formats.

yet not a single one of those events put in some rule like this....and you know what.... When they did limit something they asked the player base first....

You give the player base for too much credit. Most of them have no idea what is good in a tournament and what is bad. Take the BAO, they asked how many points that they want the tournament to be and the majority said that they want the most points possible and choose1850. The problem is that you can't finish a game in the time limit that they have.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

TOs should be prepared for lower attendance. It works both ways and it's not like you never played a deathstar.

My deathstar was very different that then deathstars of today.

I am pretty sure that placing limits on tournaments will help increase attendance. When Adepticon and Texas Games Con held 2 events (one with everything goes, and one with a lot of restrictions) no one signs up for the unrestricted event, and everyone signs up for the one with restrictions.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
I vote number 3 - just tweak the list. You don't have any other marines? Any other units or models that could make a SLIGHTLY less competitive but basically identical army?

I never quite get the whole thing of only buying the exact models for a list, especially for a list that revolves around a single rule/trick. Long experience shows that the rules change constantly. New books come out which invalidate certain builds, new FAQs change the rules, new editions are released that change how armies function. It's almost a dead cert that if you build a collection of models that only function one way, you're going to be disappointed in the near future.

Have an Exalt for the truest words ever spoken in the post 2005 Warhammer 40k world.

 Orock wrote:
Wow, just wow

Is this what the 40k player base has sunk to?

Oh no, I cant build the cheeziest most unfun to play against lists to curb stomp with anymore. I bet someone else will come up with a cheezy list that gets around this rule and I will have tough games!

You know what these tournaments need more than anything? They need the return of army comp scores. So these kinds of lists cant ever get past 50th place.

OP, I have no sympathy for your planned army list, and if that is your regular army you built and refuse to deviate from in your local meta I WEEP for anyone playing a normal list. They are probably 0 and 115 against this kind of stuff.

They should just do 2 major tournaments in the area. Regular with sensible rules, and updated ard boyz so the fans of 2 transcendent ctan lists and khorne lord of skulls with invisibility buffs can have a field day kicking the crap out of each other. May the chedderest of them all win!

Exalted.

I miss there being an Ard' Boyz to fish out the lame ass gimmick lists. It made restricted tournaments seem not quite as stuffy.

Hapes wrote:
The sad part is this is a massive tournament... on par with things like BAO....ATC....LVO.
yet not a single one of those events put in some rule like this....and you know what.... When they did limit something they asked the player base first....

and yeah sorry I want to bring a list that is a winning list?
Do you relish paying a bunch of money to travel somewhere and bring a list you know you'll get stomped with?
sure if you enjoy paying money to lose then go for it...Some of us pay our hard earned money for a competition and a chance to win...
not some whiny persons idea of what they think it should be

Also maybe I would be OK with this... If every codex was on part with each other.... but they arent. Not even close. A bog standard elder or tau list has a much higher win chance then a standard list from almost all other armies. But it's ok... take away my chances of competing... let the op codexs just run rampant because of some stupid house rule

I would love to cancel and not go to this... anyone want my ticket. Half price

Like I said, this is really melodramatic... How is this not a competition, and how do you not have a chance at winning? "Some whiny persons idea of what they think it should be" could quite easily apply to your argument!

So the centurionstar can't take a GK Libby. The army isn't invalidated, and if you're really into competition, you'd be figuring out the best configuration for this format. Just like you should be for every tournament! Because they run different point levels, use different terrain, use different missions, and allow different army builds.

In 7th ed, no two tournies are likely to have an identical format, so if you're not willing to make adjustments for an event, you're going to have a hard time competing (and get very frustrated expecting identical formats, when this is very unlikely to be the case).

Holy crap, stop being such a baby! Man up and alter your toy soldiers into a different configuration! How would it cost you $300 to change your list? Please enlighten me!

 Blackmoor wrote:

Hapes wrote:
The sad part is this is a massive tournament... on par with things like BAO....ATC....LVO. yet not a single one of those events put in some rule like this....

It is not on par with those events that you mentioned. Most tournaments barring the very largest ones are mostly local affairs and the TOs should know there constituents, and know what they want. It's quite possible that after those events everyone will have a negative opinion about their formats.

yet not a single one of those events put in some rule like this....and you know what.... When they did limit something they asked the player base first....

You give the player base for too much credit. Most of them have no idea what is good in a tournament and what is bad. Take the BAO, they asked how many points that they want the tournament to be and the majority said that they want the most points possible and choose1850. The problem is that you can't finish a game in the time limit that they have.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

TOs should be prepared for lower attendance. It works both ways and it's not like you never played a deathstar.

My deathstar was very different that then deathstars of today.

I am pretty sure that placing limits on tournaments will help increase attendance. When Adepticon and Texas Games Con held 2 events (one with everything goes, and one with a lot of restrictions) no one signs up for the unrestricted event, and everyone signs up for the one with restrictions.

I used deathstars but I dont want people using deathstars! *rawrgle blargle*

 Ustrello wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:


My deathstar was very different that then deathstars of today.

I used deathstars but I dont want people using deathstars! *rawrgle blargle*

Is that what you got out of my comment?

I have no problem with people playing deathstars, but to equate the power of the Paladin star at the end of 5th edition to Seercouncils seems a bit off.