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 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Just coming in to say, as always, down with the British oppressors!

This

It always surprises me on this site that when a country talks of breaking away from Britain, other American members aren't more supportive. I'll mention no names


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 Albatross wrote:

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
I don't expect to sway anyone, one way or the other, but Salmond comes across to me, from the times I've seen him as a man looking for a footnote in history and damn the consequences.

I'd rather Scotland doesn't go, as ignoring ancient history for a second, all our modern history has been shared and men have bled and died together for the crown. Feth those mongrels in Westminster, it should be about the jack and the Country.

This coming from a Welsh lad.

Hear, hear. Thrown into sharp focus too, with the recent WWI commemorations. Tommies and Jocks have been dying together in foreign fields for a little over two centuries. Dying, yes, for Crown and country, but most importantly, for each other. That goes for our compatriots in Wales, Northern Ireland and Cornwall too. We are bonded by blood, and I firmly believe our countries ARE better together.

Not for the first time, I'm disagreeing with you but from a logical perspective, that comment doesn't make sense. Tons of New Zealanders, Aussies, Americans, etc etc died fighting with Britain during the wars, as you know, but none of those countries have ever wanted to rejoin Britain.


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 Inquisitor Gonzo wrote:
Well, as a serving police officer with the Police Service of Scotland I am not allowed to express any opinion on the Scottish independence debate, on or off duty, via any form of communication. That includes over the internet, via the press, or apparently by even speaking to friends and family.

Whilst I appreciate that we have to keep policing seperate from politics, it's interesting to note that this instruction came a few weeks ago after several stories in the media about police officers and staff making various allegations about how the new single Police Service of Scotland was performing. In particular various criticisms were leveled against the new service regarding new procedures, their legality, and the impact on public safety and performance.

For those not in the know the Scottish National Party were the driving party behind the amalgamation of the regional police forces into one national service (somewhat ironically with an Englishman as the Chief Constable) with a view to 'increased efficiency', which has also coincidentally resulted in cuts to the numbers of police staff.

I'm sure there is no connection between this ban on police officers expressing their opinions and the allegations made against the new service. And I hope everyone notices I've not expressed any such opinions myself

Generally, in England and Wales, Police officers are encouraged to be non-political. It's why you're not allowed to strike!


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 Kilkrazy wrote:
Not watching, I can't vote so it is of only academic interest.

My view on the whole issue is that it isn't realistically possible to be sure if Scotland would be better off or worse off as a separate country, so I don't see the point in upsetting the applecart.

Of course being English I do not have the nationalist feelings of a lot of Scots.

I would disagree. Not calling you an English nationalist, but the rise of UKIP and their unpopularity in the other home nations, would suggest that English nationalism is on the rise.


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 Medium of Death wrote:
Well it's up and should be available for International audiences.

"Debate"
http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/285205-the-debate-as-it-happens-alex-salmond-and-alistair-darling-clash/?fromstreampost=150040

Watched bits of it. I would call it a draw. Salmond tried to project a positive case, and Darling hung on for dear life. My view anyway. Still can't believe that the labour are acting as human shields for the Conservatives.

I would be fully supportive of Texas annexing Scotland, if we get the oil and the redhaired lasses.
You can keep the redhaired guys.

First Scotland, then the Isle of Man! Ultimate victory shall be ours!

Cheers for that post Yodhrin. I am aware that i'm not voting for Alex Salmond in the long run, but at the end of the day it is his party that will negotiate the terms of the agreement. He will invite people he wants to the table to draft the foundations of our new nation.

The Scottish Government will invite representatives of other parties and wider Scottish civic society to negotiate for Scotland.

One positive thing that I imagine will hopefully be getting more people involved in the political process. Hopefully we can get rid of the toxic ones, which is most of them.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Just coming in to say, as always, down with the British oppressors!

This

It always surprises me on this site that when a country talks of breaking away from Britain, other American members aren't more supportive. I'll mention no names

Are you kidding? My grandpappy and his pappy were chased out of Ireland by agents of the crown after the Rising. They'd both rise from the dead and end me if I didn't properly support and cheer on any one who wants to shatter the English collar. I took an English girl over on an exchange program out on a date once and my grandpappy's tombstone cracked the very same day. I figured that was enough of that and decided to not tempt fate further.

Chased out of Ireland? Really? Not buying it, sorry.

Leaving's better then internment camps, or being executed lined up for an execution for that matter. From what I understand Dublin was still freshly shelled when they were on their way out. Oh but I forgot, the English are the good guys.

Dakka exhibit labelled 'KalashnikovMarine' is very likely a specimen what is known as a 'plastic paddy', more Irish than the Irish, but normally without a clue of what actually goers on there by being seperated by several thousand miles of Atlantic and a generation or two.

Plastic paddies are often filled with the sort of hate that only comes from a deep ignorance based on a cocktail of superstition and old wives tales. Long on shamrocks, short on Irish history.

Its telling that the term Plastic Paddy is of Irish origin, not British per se. They are seen as an embarrassment,

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Just coming in to say, as always, down with the British oppressors!

This

It always surprises me on this site that when a country talks of breaking away from Britain, other American members aren't more supportive. I'll mention no names

Are you kidding? My grandpappy and his pappy were chased out of Ireland by agents of the crown after the Rising. They'd both rise from the dead and end me if I didn't properly support and cheer on any one who wants to shatter the English collar. I took an English girl over on an exchange program out on a date once and my grandpappy's tombstone cracked the very same day. I figured that was enough of that and decided to not tempt fate further.

See you should have done like mine and shot at them while wearing blue uniforms, and later chased them out of New Orleans.

 Orlanth wrote:
Dakka exhibit labelled 'KalashnikovMarine' is very likely a specimen what is known as a 'plastic paddy', more Irish than the Irish, but normally without a clue of what actually goers on there by being seperated by several thousand miles of Atlantic and a generation or two.

Plastic paddies are often filled with the sort of hate that only comes from a deep ignorance based on a cocktail of superstition and old wives tales. Long on shamrocks, short on Irish history.

Its telling that the term Plastic Paddy is of Irish origin, not British per se. They are seen as an embarrassment,

I don't hate the English. Well. I hate some Brits, but not for being British. We haven't been in the States long enough to get the good superstition. Just the general facts. WW2 was more Granpa's prefered story time. Thanks for being your usual self though Orlanth, whenever I need someone to fulfill negative British stereotypes it always reassures me to know you're there. That said I do support breaking up the old empires. Colonialism was a terrible thing and it's good to see it end. Preferably with the remnants of any form of monarchy being pushed into the dust bin with them. Now to continue with my grand master plan, total independence for Canada!

 Frazzled wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Just coming in to say, as always, down with the British oppressors!

This

It always surprises me on this site that when a country talks of breaking away from Britain, other American members aren't more supportive. I'll mention no names

Are you kidding? My grandpappy and his pappy were chased out of Ireland by agents of the crown after the Rising. They'd both rise from the dead and end me if I didn't properly support and cheer on any one who wants to shatter the English collar. I took an English girl over on an exchange program out on a date once and my grandpappy's tombstone cracked the very same day. I figured that was enough of that and decided to not tempt fate further.

See you should have done like mine and shot at them while wearing blue uniforms, and later chased them out of New Orleans.

Great Grandpa was at best a random hooligan with a shotgun, but if I ever meet up with the leaders of 16 on the other side I'll be sure to tell them that was the flaw in their strategy.

 Orlanth wrote:
Dakka exhibit labelled 'KalashnikovMarine' is very likely a specimen what is known as a 'plastic paddy', more Irish than the Irish, but normally without a clue of what actually goers on there by being seperated by several thousand miles of Atlantic and a generation or two.

Plastic paddies are often filled with the sort of hate that only comes from a deep ignorance based on a cocktail of superstition and old wives tales. Long on shamrocks, short on Irish history.

Its telling that the term Plastic Paddy is of Irish origin, not British per se. They are seen as an embarrassment,

Plastic Paddy sounds remarkably like an English insult. You might watch that nonsense, especially when he's clearly being humorous (the whole girlfriend casuing the headstone to break thing is kind of an indicator)
Steenking English Ah break wind yur genral direction! Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

Which brings up an interesting issue. What if Joan of Ark had had an M48 Patton tank?

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Leaving's better then internment camps, or being executed lined up for an execution for that matter. From what I understand Dublin was still freshly shelled when they were on their way out. Oh but I forgot, the English are the good guys.

Nope, just 'the Other Guys'. There are two sides to every story. It's worth pointing out that your grandfather 'fled' to country where one whole group of people were de facto treated as second class citizens based on their skin colour.

Oh, but I forgot, the Americans are the good guys.

Shhh Frazz, let him enjoy his self righteousness, it's really all he has in this life. Sides, it's kinda funny watching him from up here while he's shaking his fists down in the dirt with the rest of the "Couldn't Get A Joke If They Payed For It" peasant types.

 Albatross wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Leaving's better then internment camps, or being executed lined up for an execution for that matter. From what I understand Dublin was still freshly shelled when they were on their way out. Oh but I forgot, the English are the good guys.

Nope, just 'the Other Guys'. There are two sides to every story. It's worth pointing out that your grandfather 'fled' to country where one whole group of people were de facto treated as second class citizens based on their skin colour.

Oh, but I forgot, the Americans are the good guys.

No gak sherlock? Hell I wrote a paper about Irish discrimination in the States during my brief college career. You're right about being treated like second class citizens. The old line about the transcontinental railroads in this country being built with an Irishman buried under every tie aren't exactly jokes. I suppose with the discrimination and oppression it just felt like home. Albeit without an occupying military power holding imprisonment and execution over their heads for wanting the right of self determination.

I also never implied the Americans were better then the Brits. At everything except food. British "cuisine" ye gods no wonder you all have to keep a stiff upper lip.

I've heard of Plastic Padding. It is a polymerizing styrene putty useful in wargaming for filling hollow bases and other such bulk cavities.

However this is all off the topic.

 Albatross wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Leaving's better then internment camps, or being executed lined up for an execution for that matter. From what I understand Dublin was still freshly shelled when they were on their way out. Oh but I forgot, the English are the good guys.

Nope, just 'the Other Guys'. There are two sides to every story. It's worth pointing out that your grandfather 'fled' to country where one whole group of people were de facto treated as second class citizens based on their skin colour.

Oh, but I forgot, the Americans are the good guys.

Several whole groups of people actually. Don't forget there were massive Irish riots in NY and other locations due to the implementation of draft laws - even to guys just getting off the ship.
"Rich Man's War Poor Man's Fight"

Of course, we are the good guys because we had a war over that issue.
Admit it, you're just jealous of our fine finger foods and Tennessee whiskey.


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 Kilkrazy wrote:
I've heard of Plastic Padding. It is a polymerizing styrene putty useful in wargaming for filling hollow bases and other such bulk cavities.

However this is all off the topic.

Thats styrene you barbarian! Plastic molecules are way more engineered. Its just this sort of lack of knowledge of hydrocarbons that why you lost the Empire.

You ever see a Scot trying to pronounce 'methyl methacrylate'? Its almost a religious experience.

Your relatives lived in more or less completely different nations to how they function now. So while you're ramblings are great for family discussion in your home, try to keep them out of our modern political problems.

Americans claiming ridiculous British Isle ties aside...

 Frazzled wrote:


Plastic Paddy sounds remarkably like an English insult. You might watch that nonsense, especially when he's clearly being humorous (the whole girlfriend casuing the headstone to break thing is kind of an indicator)
Steenking English Ah break wind yur genral direction! Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

KalashnikovMarine's first comments were ignorant enough, but its the follow up hysterical BS about Dublin being shelled and people lined up for execution that prompted a response.

If that is a joke then there is something wrong with his sense of 'humour'. It doesn't help that plastic paddies often are that ignorant.
Its a common enough ploy, teach kids that the other side are baby eaters or equivalent. Only that its very rare outside the developing world, the sort of blind hatred you see amongst impoverished ghetto communities in the middle east.

In case you still think the Troubles is a joke watch this video:




This is the consequence in 2001 of what happens when children going to school travel along a certain road.
Yes, walking kids to school is excuse enough for a riot.

Both sides are as bad as each other in Northern Ireland, but I chose an example of loyalist extremism for fairness, its now better than it was. The root however is ethnic divisions, and the root of those divisions lies in what people are told by their own faction.
It gets so bad that even the simplest of things is an affront to one side or other.

Now with plastic paddies the problems are magnified, you get all the hated, all the propaganda, but none of the grounding of actually being there. People in Ireland generally dont believe the BS spouted about the other side, they just see them as ugly stories, and some hate purely on proximity and old vendettas, normally its a minority. Yet the stories are proliferated, and those further away are often actually stupid enough to believe them wholecloth. That is how you get plastic paddies and they are a larger percentage as a whole.

Youtube is worked blocked for me. But on the subject of babies mmm the other other white meat...

Yep plastic paddies sounds like an insult, like when someone calls Brits limeys. Maybe you're just jealous of their superior tenors?

Back to topic.
Again can someone list in bullet points what the actual Scottish issues are, and more importantly, who gets the oil?

 Orlanth wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Plastic Paddy sounds remarkably like an English insult. You might watch that nonsense, especially when he's clearly being humorous (the whole girlfriend casuing the headstone to break thing is kind of an indicator)
Steenking English Ah break wind yur genral direction! Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

KalashnikovMarine's first comments were ignorant enough, but its the follow up hysterical BS about Dublin being shelled and people lined up for execution that prompted a response.

Now who doesn't know their history? Dublin was shelled during the Easter Rising WHICH I WAS SPECIFICALLY talking about, and depending on how you do your time line can be considered part of the Irish Revolution vs. the Troubles, and Gen. Maxwell sentenced 90 Irishmen and women to death shortly thereafter. I believe 15 of those were confirmed and executed via firing squad at Kilmainham Gaol. Never mind the casualties during the Rising itself wherein plenty of civilians, not just Rebels were shot and bayoneted by Crown officers and troops, along with the usual casualties from turning artillery and machinegun fire on urban areas. A further 1480 Irish citizens were placed in internment camps in England and Wales around this same time.

This is all historical fact. Now we're still off topic, you are as always wrong. Can we move on?

 Frazzled wrote:


Yep plastic paddies sounds like an insult, like when someone calls Brits limeys.

Yep, it very much is an insult, referring to someone who has, at best, tenuous links to Ireland and who bangs on at every opportunity about how Irish they are, how awful the English are etc.

It's irritating and a little pathetic. I stay indoors on St Patrick's Day.


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 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Albatross wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Leaving's better then internment camps, or being executed lined up for an execution for that matter. From what I understand Dublin was still freshly shelled when they were on their way out. Oh but I forgot, the English are the good guys.

Nope, just 'the Other Guys'. There are two sides to every story. It's worth pointing out that your grandfather 'fled' to country where one whole group of people were de facto treated as second class citizens based on their skin colour.

Oh, but I forgot, the Americans are the good guys.

No gak sherlock? Hell I wrote a paper about Irish discrimination in the States during my brief college career. You're right about being treated like second class citizens. The old line about the transcontinental railroads in this country being built with an Irishman buried under every tie aren't exactly jokes. I suppose with the discrimination and oppression it just felt like home. Albeit without an occupying military power holding imprisonment and execution over their heads for wanting the right of self determination.

Um, I was talking about African-Americans.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Plastic Paddy sounds remarkably like an English insult. You might watch that nonsense, especially when he's clearly being humorous (the whole girlfriend casuing the headstone to break thing is kind of an indicator)
Steenking English Ah break wind yur genral direction! Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

KalashnikovMarine's first comments were ignorant enough, but its the follow up hysterical BS about Dublin being shelled and people lined up for execution that prompted a response.

Now who doesn't know their history? Dublin was shelled during the Easter Rising WHICH I WAS SPECIFICALLY talking about, and depending on how you do your time line can be considered part of the Irish Revolution vs. the Troubles, and Gen. Maxwell sentenced 90 Irishmen and women to death shortly thereafter. I believe 15 of those were confirmed and executed via firing squad at Kilmainham Gaol. Never mind the casualties during the Rising itself wherein plenty of civilians, not just Rebels were shot and bayoneted by Crown officers and troops, along with the usual casualties from turning artillery and machinegun fire on urban areas. A further 1480 Irish citizens were placed in internment camps in England and Wales around this same time.

This is all historical fact. Now we're still off topic, you are as always wrong. Can we move on?

This was back when people were shot for "Cowardice" when suffering shell shock. Not a very proud time.

It's irritating and a little pathetic. I stay indoors on St Patrick's Day.

I don't. Its March which means cool days are numbered at that point. I don't wear green though (ok maybe my teeth).

People in the UK generally know that there have been monstrous things done over the years, but considering we now live in "Modern" Britain, post 1950's?, it hardly seems relevant. Certainly worth remembering for historical accuracy, but hardly pertinent to current affairs.

Personally I cringe at the National anthem when it refers to past glories, like the Scottish one when it's banging on about sending "Proud Edward's Army" home "to think again". Pish. Irrelevant Pish. It just fosters hate for hate's sake.

I'd like to see a change to "Scotland the Brave", as it's much more jovial and doesn't talk about any of that gak. It's National without being detrimental.



Also Frazzled, I can't be arsed writing the points out, but these are the most frequently raised issues from the Wiki article I've bolded the first sentences of the so you get a general jist.

Wikipedia wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence
Reasons

Reasons that have been cited in favour of independence are:
Democracy and national self-determination: Scotland's population will possess full decision-making power in regard to the political affairs of its nation. First Minister Salmond stated in a May 2012 launch that "the people who live in Scotland are best placed to make the decisions that affect Scotland."[74]

Nuclear disarmament: with control over defence and foreign policy, an independent Scotland could address the removal of Trident nuclear weapons, an issue long-associated with the campaign for an independent Scotland, as outlined in the House of Commons Defence Committee's white paper "The future of the UK's strategic nuclear deterrent: the White Paper" of 2006-2007.[75][76] In a July 2013 Huffington Post UK article, the writer suggested that the £25 billion spent on a "like-for-like replacement of the Trident nuclear deterrent" could instead be diverted to education, healthcare and housing.[77] Additionally, the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament supports independence on this basis.[78]

"It's Scotland's oil": since being used as a highly effective slogan by the SNP in the 1970s,[79] this phrase has encapsulated the argument that only an independent Scotland be able to fully utilise and exploit the financial benefits of its national resources, including North Sea oil and gas, for the benefit of the population.[80] According to the Scottish Government, 64% of the EU's oil reserves exist in Scottish waters,[81] while the David Hume Institute stated: "Scotland is sitting on oil and gas reserves worth up to £4 trillion".[82]

Renewable energy: if independence is attained, supporters of the new political structure seek to fully harness Scotland's natural renewable energy resources: 25 per cent of Europe’s wind energy potential; 25 per cent of Europe’s tidal energy potential; and 10 per cent of Europe’s wave energy potential.[83] Salmond claims that this could lead to the "re-industrialisation" of Scotland.[84]

 Frazzled wrote:
Youtube is worked blocked for me. But on the subject of babies mmm the other other white meat...

Yep plastic paddies sounds like an insult, like when someone calls Brits limeys. Maybe you're just jealous of their superior tenors?

Back to topic.
Again can someone list in bullet points what the actual Scottish issues are, and more importantly, who gets the oil?

Frazz, the biggest issue in Scotland is the democratic deficit, which is a major problem, because one part of the UK (England) has 60 million people, and Scotland only has 5 million people.

In America, this is not a problem. To use an example (which you're probably aware of) the state of Maine has a smaller population than your home state of Texas. But this is not a problem because Maine has 2 senators and 2 congressmen (or women) and Texas has likewise. It's more balanced.

The UK political system is a mess and has no federalism or balances. 59 Scottish MPs have to compete with 400+ English MPs.

This is offset slightly by the Scottish Parliament (a devolved assembly) and has limited powers in health and education, but these powers can be removed at any time, because there is no guarantee in the constitution, because there is no constitution! Added to that, we have 800 unelected peers that also pass laws. In short, the UK is a constitutional mess.


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 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Just coming in to say, as always, down with the British oppressors!

This

It always surprises me on this site that when a country talks of breaking away from Britain, other American members aren't more supportive. I'll mention no names

Are you kidding? My grandpappy and his pappy were chased out of Ireland by agents of the crown after the Rising. They'd both rise from the dead and end me if I didn't properly support and cheer on any one who wants to shatter the English collar. I took an English girl over on an exchange program out on a date once and my grandpappy's tombstone cracked the very same day. I figured that was enough of that and decided to not tempt fate further.

You misunderstand me. I was praising you for being one of the few Americans that does support countries breaking away from the UK. I demanded honour be satisfied! Apologise at once!


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Personally I cringe at the National anthem when it refers to past glories, like the Scottish one when it's banging on about sending "Proud Edward's Army" home "to think again".

With all due respect Medium of Death, the better together side have constantly used the examples of both world wars as a reason why the UK is better united. Both sides are responsible for using the past in this way.

As an American, I'm obviously not super familiar with all the issues at hand, and I'm all for people's self-determination, but I'm not seeing major advantages to Scotland removing itself from the UK.

I can get the representation issues, but I imagine those could be addressed and changed within the context of the existing relationship, while Scotland can effectively harness the power of their much larger neighbor to reap benefits that Scotland on its (much smaller) own would be unable to obtain.

 Albatross wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


Yep plastic paddies sounds like an insult, like when someone calls Brits limeys.

Yep, it very much is an insult, referring to someone who has, at best, tenuous links to Ireland and who bangs on at every opportunity about how Irish they are, how awful the English are etc.

It's irritating and a little pathetic. I stay indoors on St Patrick's Day.

I'm not Catholic so I don't celebrate St. Patrick's day. I can see American college students make fools of themselves whenever I want so I suppose there's just not a pressing need for me to be out and about if I don't have to be. If I need an excuse to drink for heritage's sake, Luan Cásca (Easter Monday) is probably best to sit back with a pint and sing Amhrán na bhFiann.

Thought: Outside of it being a Saint Day I wasn't really raised with St. Patrick's day, when the hell did that get to be a thing and why? Barely makes sense as it is.

 Albatross wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

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 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Albatross wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Leaving's better then internment camps, or being executed lined up for an execution for that matter. From what I understand Dublin was still freshly shelled when they were on their way out. Oh but I forgot, the English are the good guys.

Nope, just 'the Other Guys'. There are two sides to every story. It's worth pointing out that your grandfather 'fled' to country where one whole group of people were de facto treated as second class citizens based on their skin colour.

Oh, but I forgot, the Americans are the good guys.

No gak sherlock? Hell I wrote a paper about Irish discrimination in the States during my brief college career. You're right about being treated like second class citizens. The old line about the transcontinental railroads in this country being built with an Irishman buried under every tie aren't exactly jokes. I suppose with the discrimination and oppression it just felt like home. Albeit without an occupying military power holding imprisonment and execution over their heads for wanting the right of self determination.

Um, I was talking about African-Americans.

Whoops. But why limit it to one race? You're missing on out on the bulk of American racial and cultural intolerance that way! Now I totally missed "skin colour" cause I haven't slept in 48 hours, but I take issue here, and this may also be where I was confused:

where one whole group of people were de facto treated as second class citizens based on their skin colour.

This being the early 20th century, Irish, Italians, Chinese, and a few other groups were absolutely second class citizens and treated as such. The black man in America however was barely 40 years removed from being treated not as a second class citizens, but as livestock and aside from the lack of chains, things weren't that much better. My Great Grandfather and Grandfather came to the United States and were treated like a lesser for their race, nationality and religion, a Black man of their age was far more likely to be treated like an animal then any sort of man at all, and Jim Crow laws sure as hell sought to keep it that way.

 MrDwhitey wrote:


This was back when people were shot for "Cowardice" when suffering shell shock. Not a very proud time.

Right, and please let me clarify, I'm not bring any of that up for Brit Bashing, I did bring it up as anecdotal story telling about why my family had to flee our homeland and why I am very tongue in cheekly supporting the overthrow of the British Oppressors (TM) by our Scottish cousins upthread. The only reason I even went into this in detail is because an ignorant tosser accused me of not knowing my blood's history.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


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 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Just coming in to say, as always, down with the British oppressors!

This

It always surprises me on this site that when a country talks of breaking away from Britain, other American members aren't more supportive. I'll mention no names

Are you kidding? My grandpappy and his pappy were chased out of Ireland by agents of the crown after the Rising. They'd both rise from the dead and end me if I didn't properly support and cheer on any one who wants to shatter the English collar. I took an English girl over on an exchange program out on a date once and my grandpappy's tombstone cracked the very same day. I figured that was enough of that and decided to not tempt fate further.

You misunderstand me. I was praising you for being one of the few Americans that does support countries breaking away from the UK. I demanded honour be satisfied! Apologise at once!

And I was saying why I do so. Threat of spiritual vengeance from beyond the grave. Also a belief in the right of peoples to secure and steer their own destiny but that is entirely besides the point here.

Also I'm not into guys so you're probably in the wrong place to have "honour" or whatever other creative nickname you have for it "satisfied"

 Vaktathi wrote:
As an American, I'm obviously not super familiar with all the issues at hand, and I'm all for people's self-determination, but I'm not seeing major advantages to Scotland removing itself from the UK.

I can get the representation issues, but I imagine those could be addressed and changed within the context of the existing relationship, while Scotland can effectively harness the power of their much larger neighbor to reap benefits that Scotland on its (much smaller) own would be unable to obtain.

No major advantages in removing itself from the UK? You dare call yourself an American?

George Washington must be spinning in his grave!

He was buried and not cremated right? Could an American confirm this?

George Washington was placed in a form of suspended animation via Free Mason magic till he is truly needed by his country once again.

(he was buried)

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
George Washington was placed in a form of suspended animation via Free Mason magic till he is truly needed by his country once again.

(he was buried)

Will George Washington return on Ragna-rock - the final battle in American mythology, when Canada, Vietnam, and the UN join forces and invade America, and the only thing that can stop the forces of darkness is George Washington, weiner dogs, and Nancy Reagan's handbag!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Personally I cringe at the National anthem when it refers to past glories, like the Scottish one when it's banging on about sending "Proud Edward's Army" home "to think again".

With all due respect Medium of Death, the better together side have constantly used the examples of both world wars as a reason why the UK is better united. Both sides are responsible for using the past in this way.

I'm not sure where you got I was bashing the Yes vote in my post. I was more speaking generally about themes of nationalism reflecting events before the inception of "modern" Britain, which I see as irrelevant for our immediate political problems.

 Vaktathi wrote:
As an American, I'm obviously not super familiar with all the issues at hand, and I'm all for people's self-determination, but I'm not seeing major advantages to Scotland removing itself from the UK.

I can get the representation issues, but I imagine those could be addressed and changed within the context of the existing relationship, while Scotland can effectively harness the power of their much larger neighbour to reap benefits that Scotland on its (much smaller) own would be unable to obtain.

The advantages is that Scotland would be able to spend the money it raises on policies it actually supports and the government would actually be representing the people of Scotland.
Examples of this are the Bedroom tax which the Scottish Government is currently paying to offset the affect of it and Trident which costs an inordinate amount of money for something we will never use unless we're up for destroying to world. As for representation the current UK ruling party is the Conservatives who have just one elected mp from Scotland and Westminster policies are generally seen as sliding towards the right with rises in popularity for UKIP and labour shifting to a much more centralist policy not giving the UK a major left wing party

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
As an American, I'm obviously not super familiar with all the issues at hand, and I'm all for people's self-determination, but I'm not seeing major advantages to Scotland removing itself from the UK.

I can get the representation issues, but I imagine those could be addressed and changed within the context of the existing relationship, while Scotland can effectively harness the power of their much larger neighbor to reap benefits that Scotland on its (much smaller) own would be unable to obtain.

No major advantages in removing itself from the UK? You dare call yourself an American?

George Washington must be spinning in his grave!

He was buried and not cremated right? Could an American confirm this?

To be fair, we're not sharing a very tiny island, and never had representation on the level of Scotland, even if Scotland's representation is less than it may like.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

The advantages is that Scotland would be able to spend the money it raises on policies it actually supports and the government would actually be representing the people of Scotland.

As I'm not aware of the specifics, does Scotland raise more tax revenue than is spent on it? I can understand this argument, but if Scotland is gaining more in public spending than it collects, it would seem to be beneficial to remain in the UK. It may also be worthwhile to look at indirect spending, given the small geographic area and spending in England could still be a net positive for Scotland depending on what that infrastructure provides the island as a whole. That said, I don't know the specifics of that and Scotland could be totally getting screwed for all I know

Examples of this are the Bedroom tax which the Scottish Government is currently paying to offset the affect of it and Trident which costs an inordinate amount of money for something we will never use unless we're up for destroying to world.

Wouldn't that effectively be part of joint defense? I mean that seems to be a defense policy rather than something specific to just Scotland right? Those missiles aren't specifically English are they? I'd say that'd be more a question of changing defense policy than a Scottish sovereignty issue, at least to me. That said, I'm also not aware of how the costs and all that work for that.

As for representation the current UK ruling party is the Conservatives who have just one elected mp from Scotland and Westminster policies are generally seen as sliding towards the right with rises in popularity for UKIP and labour shifting to a much more centralist policy not giving the UK a major left wing party

Is that a sovereignty issue or just one of party politics?