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The same model can not attempt to cast the same psychic power more than once is the way people interpret it because RAW it doesn't like make sense at all unfortunately. It's one of the " Whoops , broke game" things. It's one of the bigger issues with the Psychic Rules.

If you read the BAO FAQ, and others you'll see they all FAQed it because it doesn't make sense. If you do it the other way you get all kinds of weird gak like a model that's in a unit with a psyker being allowed to suffer a perils or the whole unit disappearing if you get possession etc..


Check out the NOVA and BAO rules in Tournaments forum they have FAQs, and I highly recommend them, my group and in fact most Tournaments at least abides by them over GW until GW makes one as its such a easy neutral source and they're just really well done and settle a lot of headaches.

BAO faq, first page under psychic states multiple psykers from the same unit cannot manifest the same power in a single phase.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4VC3WZFH6Hnek1leHN4anRncDg/preview?pli=1

I know for a fact the stupid rules of " Disappearing Psyker" came up with some guy in a game at BAO.

My bad though was pretty sure BAO followed NOVA.

Maybe this could help:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609539.page

 Master Shake wrote:
I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Out of curiosity, do you think this list could be made with a Tzeentch focus? The other list posted in here was similar but Slaanesh + Be'Lakor, but with save rerolls and extra Psychic power, how do you think a Lord of Change led force would fare?

Requizen wrote:

 Master Shake wrote:
I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Out of curiosity, do you think this list could be made with a Tzeentch focus? The other list posted in here was similar but Slaanesh + Be'Lakor, but with save rerolls and extra Psychic power, how do you think a Lord of Change led force would fare?

I think that the Jink+Shrouded special rule for Nurgle DPs is essential IMO. Without that 2+ cover, DPs become very fragile. The key is to get the 4+ FNP greater reward and just jink all the way up the tabletop and crush people in CC.

AutarchRion wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Master Shake wrote:
I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Out of curiosity, do you think this list could be made with a Tzeentch focus? The other list posted in here was similar but Slaanesh + Be'Lakor, but with save rerolls and extra Psychic power, how do you think a Lord of Change led force would fare?

I think that the Jink+Shrouded special rule for Nurgle DPs is essential IMO. Without that 2+ cover, DPs become very fragile. The key is to get the 4+ FNP greater reward and just jink all the way up the tabletop and crush people in CC.

You can get the same thing with the Shrouding power from Telepathy, and then you get to re-roll 1s.

Daemon Princes of Tzeentch, are not slouches in CC at all.

Daemon princes of all kinds are not slouches in CC. That stat line is awesome.

Yeah, I lean toward Slaanesh and Tzeentch.

Tzeentch is also a half way decent gun boat since it get's the Flickering Fire ability.

 Tyran wrote:

AutarchRion wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Master Shake wrote:
I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Out of curiosity, do you think this list could be made with a Tzeentch focus? The other list posted in here was similar but Slaanesh + Be'Lakor, but with save rerolls and extra Psychic power, how do you think a Lord of Change led force would fare?

I think that the Jink+Shrouded special rule for Nurgle DPs is essential IMO. Without that 2+ cover, DPs become very fragile. The key is to get the 4+ FNP greater reward and just jink all the way up the tabletop and crush people in CC.

You can get the same thing with the Shrouding power from Telepathy, and then you get to re-roll 1s.

Thing is, what if you don't roll it up? Or fail to cast/get denied? Plus, dice spent on that are dice not spent on summoning/iron arm/endurance etc. Not that tzeentch DPs are bad at all, but the jink/shrouding combo is just awesome and totally given for nurgle.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:


Thing is, what if you don't roll it up? Or fail to cast/get denied? Plus, dice spent on that are dice not spent on summoning/iron arm/endurance etc. Not that tzeentch DPs are bad at all, but the jink/shrouding combo is just awesome and totally given for nurgle.

That's why you have several ones, with 10 rolls on telepathy (3x3 for the DPs and 1 from Fateweaver) you should get a few shrouding (and a few invisibility). Plus a single shrouding will protect all the FMC in range with a re-rolleable 2+ cover save (which is 6 times better than a normal 2+ cover save).

How many of these armies rely on summoning? And how many models beyond the initial list to you need to invest in to be able to compete. I love the idea of a FMC melee list, but don't want to spend a sick amount on extra troops/dogs!

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

AutarchRion wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Master Shake wrote:
I got 11th overall with nurgle princes, but was 5th overall before dropping at the end of round 6... that being said....

My list was:

Fateweaver
GUO, Exalted gift, lvl 3

17 pink horrors
13 pink horrors

3 x nurgle prince, wings, armour, lvl 3, 2 greater gifts


I roll powers as following. Starting g with princes I roll on Demonology. If I get a 1 4 or 5, then I keep it and roll again. Should the second roll be a 2 3 or 6, then I swap it for the primaris.

If a prince rolls a combination of 1 4 and 5 on the first two rolls, then the third roll just goes towards demonology too.

If I've swapped out the second roll for the primaris then the third roll is generally on biomancy, seeking iron arm, life leach, or endurance to help keep princes alive. If I'm fighting wraithknights or riptides, I often roll the 3rd power on telepathy to take psychic shriek.

Psychic shriek is exceptionally good with fateweaver since if you roll a 6, 4, and a 1, you can re roll only the 1 and have a shot and instantly killing an unwounded wraithknight.

It's also worth noting that the nurgle princes gain chaos focus nurgle and that template weapon is no joke.

Out of curiosity, do you think this list could be made with a Tzeentch focus? The other list posted in here was similar but Slaanesh + Be'Lakor, but with save rerolls and extra Psychic power, how do you think a Lord of Change led force would fare?

I think that the Jink+Shrouded special rule for Nurgle DPs is essential IMO. Without that 2+ cover, DPs become very fragile. The key is to get the 4+ FNP greater reward and just jink all the way up the tabletop and crush people in CC.

You can get the same thing with the Shrouding power from Telepathy, and then you get to re-roll 1s.

Thing is, what if you don't roll it up? Or fail to cast/get denied? Plus, dice spent on that are dice not spent on summoning/iron arm/endurance etc. Not that tzeentch DPs are bad at all, but the jink/shrouding combo is just awesome and totally given for nurgle.

That's why I run Be'lakor in my list. He grants the guaranteed shrouding and can fly along next to all the other tzeentch princes who get rerollable 2+ cover saves (it also works great with a csm unit of bikers and screamers). I throw 4 dice at shrouding just to be extra safe and if the opponent has a lot of denying dice I'd be tempted to throw more but they usually want to save them for the flickering fires and iron arms that follow.

The nurgle option is more consistent, yes, but also less flexible. I get to squeeze in other units like maulerfiends, bikers, and screamers and get them excellent protection as well.

 Tyran wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:


Thing is, what if you don't roll it up? Or fail to cast/get denied? Plus, dice spent on that are dice not spent on summoning/iron arm/endurance etc. Not that tzeentch DPs are bad at all, but the jink/shrouding combo is just awesome and totally given for nurgle.

That's why you have several ones, with 10 rolls on telepathy (3x3 for the DPs and 1 from Fateweaver) you should get a few shrouding (and a few invisibility). Plus a single shrouding will protect all the FMC in range with a re-rolleable 2+ cover save (which is 6 times better than a normal 2+ cover save).

But dude man! If you only focus on Telepathy, then you miss out on some of the awesome Biomancy Powers... like IRon Arm. I would rather have jink/shrouded + Iron arm. So deadly. Nurgle DPs just do it for me.... give me chills (of the good variety) I never like to rely on randomly generated powers. Every once in awhile you can, but certainly not for all of your DPs in a Flying Circus. Nurgle are gonna give you the most consistent survivability.

If you play Slaanesh / Tzeentch it's a better choice imo and actually comes in at a pretty cheap price. Plus you can have like 5 pr more actually almost unkillable units it's also cheaper to have Daemon Princes of Tzeentch as you know your getting that rerollable Shrouding or invisibility.

This is a list I've been trying out it's 4 2k, for lower points I usually switch seekers w/ Daemonettes along with switching out one squad of horrors.

Fateweaver

Heralds of Slaanesh x 2 (Level 2)
Steed

Herald of Tzeentch x 2 ( Level 3)
Grimoire , Portaglyph Disc


Troops

11 Pink Horrors
11 Pink Horrors



F. Attack
Seekers x 15
Screamers x 7



H. Support
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch , Level 3 , Greater Gift x 2, 1 Lesser, Wings
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, Level 3, Greater Gift x 2, 1 Lesser , Wings




It's going to have around 22+ Warp Charge, The ability to summon and 5 Base Rolls on Invisibility whoops I mean Telepathy.

With a Small Model count and unit count initially it's really easy to protect with buffs. Also, Screamers benefit from Shrouding as well, they have a 2+ Cover jink Save. Fateweaver can and will blow the crap out of things, now that you can fire off every single Psychic Spell from Tzeentch if you want.

Good Luck killing anything that has Invisibility and Grimoire on it. I think it's actually a statistical impossibility to kill something with a 2++ Rerollable and needing 6s to hit. It's basically impossible to kill something that is 6s to hit, has Feel No Pain, and has a 2++ Rerollable Invunerable.

Each of the Daemon Princes get's 2 Chances to get Feel No Pain as well. So yeah... your just not going to kill that army if they get a Invisibility off on something that has Feel No Pain and a rerollable armour save.

Nurgle allows you to pass up on having to roll invisibility. It also has the advantage of 2+ jink during a potential alpha strike, which other princes lack.

Having to roll till you get invisibility can hamper an army greatly.

Yeah each one has it's advantages and disadvantages, Alpha strike is somethng to worry about. My preference is towards Tzeentch or Slaanesh. I like Tzeentch because you get such a great character w/ Fateweaver , the reroll, the reroll the warp storm.

I prefer Tzeentch / Slaanesh mix, I think it's more well rounded and overall is more a "take all comers".

Tempted to buy belakor now, to try out that tzeentch list. Or a keeper of secrets, because she doesn't seem awful anymore. Currently run guo, 3 nurgle princes for my 1500 giggles list, but these seem fun too.

 Master Shake wrote:
Nurgle allows you to pass up on having to roll invisibility. It also has the advantage of 2+ jink during a potential alpha strike, which other princes lack.

Having to roll till you get invisibility can hamper an army greatly.

I think you mean 'shrouding', which is the 7th ed power that gives 6" radius of shrouded targeting the psyker. Invisibility causes all to hit rolls (ranged and melee) to require a 6+ (and no blasts). Bel'kor knows all the Telepathy powers as standard so doesn't need to roll.

None the less you do raise a good point which is that you resist alphastrikes and you don't have to worry about:
- failing casting shrouded
- bel'kor periling and forgetting his spells
- bel'kor failing to cast shrouding
- bel'kor getting nuked down
- keeping all your dp within 6" of bel'kor

Bel'kor dies pretty fast to both wave serpents and smart missile systems, both of which are twin linked and ignore cover (giving him a 4++ only) which, given enough volume of fire will down him. Flying him up the middle of the board in a 6" bubble of death is not a good idea.

A far better tactic is to circle 3 dp of nurgle over your enemies heads for 5 turns summoning daemonettes onto every objective you need and landing only if it looks like cheesery won't win you the game.

I really prefer the Tzeentch and Slaanesh, I find it more annoying for my opponent when multiple things in the army have 2++ rerollable or you need 6s to hit. 've never had a problem with no getting Shrouding or Invisibility with that many rolls on the chart.

I mean you get The Grimoire, you get access to invisibility plus a like 33% chance he'll have Feel No Pain because of Greater Gifts, GOOD LUCK dealing with that guy flying around summoning daemons all day and destroying units in CC.

With a low count Alpha Strike is pretty easy to castle against. Plus if you don't completely and utterly alpha strike the army, you just stuck a unit with in charge range of the worst things in the game to be in charge range of. Generally having 2 Greater Gifts , and 1 Lesser makes it so they just wreck complete shop, especially taking the staff. I just prefer more versatile lists and the Fateweaver gives me a big advantage on having great and powerful unit plus the access to the Daemon Princes.


If you take Belakor , you have to also take a Great Unclean One to get the Daemon Princes, so your getting a 200 point tax on the Daemon Princes, where as Fateweaver you can still take Heralds.

Great Unclean one is a good unit, but it's not really an amazing utility unit like Fateweaver is.

That's my issue with it. I'm not particularly fond of Great Unclean Ones.

I've never lost a Tzeentch Daemon Prince in a army that has Grimoire and access to Shrouding or Invisibility. It's to much gak to deal with and no one can crack it.

I don't even know what the statistical odds are of killing something that's got invisibility and a grimoire on it. I know I can fly one Daemon Prince though into the middle of my opponents army and they just have to ignore it and if they tar pit it, it's going to just keep on summoning daemons.


I mean when I construct I always construct w/ Back up plans. For example the above list :

I've got Grimoire - this is definitive
I've got 5 Rolls on Telepathy , just starting off, Fateweaver and the Heralds
I've got 6 Rolls on Malefic - So I've got a chance at Cursed Earth for +1, and the Possibility either of the Daemon Princes w/ Roll Reroll all Invulnerables or at least a 4+ w/ Rerolling Ones.
Biomancy- You got two spells on here that give a +3 Toughness, then another that gives Feel No pain.
Telepathy - You have two spells that make them super unkillable, Invisibility, or Shrouding.

Then you have the Daemon Princes

I've got a better than 50% chance to get at least 1 thing that gives me Feel No Pain, either from the Greater list or from Biomancy , I'm not worried about a Daemon Prince w/ a 4+ Jink and then additional Feel No Pain and that's just with rolling twice on Greater and once on biomancy just odds are you'll get something that get's feel no pain, if you get Feel No pain from Greater and then Iron Arm, just tell people to go away.

I just don't need to worry about definitively getting Invisibility or Shrouding because there are other ways that I am able to protect my Daemon Princes and units.

My point is I like to go for Versatility and have options.

No one really answered my question. Maybe it's dumb, but I'm very new to daemons. With Flying Circus lists in 7th - how important is it to make use of summoning?

Extremely

Thanks Hulksmash. And with all this rolling for Iron Arm / Endurance / Shrouding / Invisibility etc... Which units roll on summoning and what do they try to summon? How many dice per turn?

I havent had a chance yet, but I think I would make a nurgle DP with 2 biomancy and 1 daemonology, or vice versa, though I feel getting endurance or iron arm is higher priority than getting something other than primaris for summoning.

Mastershake laid it out pretty well but here is where I'm at:

I'd say it depends on the first Daemonology roll. If I roll a 4 then I roll against on Daemonology looking for a 5 or swapping for the primaris and throwing 1 dice at Telepathy (if Slaanesh) or Biomancy (if Nurgle). If I don't roll a 4 then I just take the primaris or hopefully I rolled a 5. The rest then go to the other trees.

Sacrifice is just so awesomely useful and easy to get off it's hard to swap it for the primaris. Basically you want your FMC's rocking either the primaris or incursion (5). The rest can go to others.

I understand how extremely powerful gaining extra models on the board is (especially as a screen/distraction from your more expensive and powerful units), but Summoning just feels so janky to me. First you have to make a WC3 power, which generally means ~5 dice on one ability and a pretty decent chance to peril (though, to be fair, that means if it goes off they generally can't deny). Then you have to deep strike, and since most things don't bring icons, there's always the chance they'll just pop off the table or die altogether.

I mean, yes, suddenly having a free squad is worth the risk, but I feel that in general, having more reliable powers on other tables is good as well. Of course, if you're going the lists from Nova which only have ~30 models on the board to start, you kind of need more bodies just so you don't die immediately.

And let's be real. You're generally looking at your 5 FMC's costing in the range of 1400pts before anything other than wings and pyshic powers. So There isn't a lot of room for models after that.

 Hulksmash wrote:
And let's be real. You're generally looking at your 5 FMC's costing in the range of 1400pts before anything other than wings and pyshic powers. So There isn't a lot of room for models after that.

Oh yeah, I totally understand that much at least. But likely after the first turn (as long as all the Summonings went off and nothing catastrophic happened), I'd likely switch most of my focus onto other powers.

Also, let's not forget that a culexus assassin in a flyer can roll up and shut down the shrouding. They can not shut down. The nurgle princes shrouding.