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That certainly does suck and he also should have been DQ'd from awards and made to remove the offending model from his list. I'm not saying everything was done perfectly. Just saying that you cannot go back and award wins and points to their old opponents, it just does not work. It's one of the reasons I check lists ahead of time, and they should have done so for the invite at least (larger event list checking is difficult.)

Checking lists was part of their requirements in the rules. It still wasnt caught by the TO.s til mid tournament.

suggests lists were just checked for points, not for legality. But I was not involved in anyway, so I cannot speak to that really.

It sucks, but it won't be the last time something like this happends, nor the first.

Anyone know what Matthew Alle's Orks list was? He came in second, apparently.

This whole thing sucks because they're pre-tournament issues.
This isn't a case where an Iron Halo is magically a 3++ or someone is moving bases front to back; i.e. in-game cheating.
Easily preventable.

1. I've always been an advocate for GTs and large events to provide dice for people. Make it part of the entry fee, make the 6 a custom logo for the event, and call it good. Or hell, just give everyone a cube of GW or Chessex dice.
2. The list issue is a T.O. failure*. Lists are submitted prior to the tournament, and should be vetted by multiple organizers for QA. I don't know how they failed in this...unless they were just checking the block. Granted, the new rules/supplements/dataslates and so on the GW keeps rolling out don't make this easy.

*T.O.s have a tough job, and they're not infallible, I got it.

Does this mean someone can use a 6.5" straightedge that's labeled 6" and it's "all good" because they "bought it from someone else?"

You're responsible for all the stuff you bring with you to a tournament, it doesn't matter where you bought it. It "came" from your carrying case you brought to this game.

I find it comical people feel the need to cheat at man dolls.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I find it comical people feel the need to cheat at man dolls.

I find this very comical indeed.

regarding the dice.

Obviously it happened multiple times, as the 5 and 2 are across from each other the only way someone would notice would be if the player never rolled 2s, or hardly rolled 2s.

the player in question would have had to been using the cheating dice the majority of the time for it to be caught, it would not have been a one or two time thing.

given it is a "large grab bag of dice" this means the player was intentionally setting the dice back in the bag to take when he needed to not roll 2s, or the majority of the dice were rigged.

given its not hard to tell when something is wrong with dice, it sounds like a lot of white washing of someone being a cheat.

regardless it would still be neat to see lists and results, the non cheating player results are still relavent, as well as there would be interest in seeing what % of army factions were present and how they all placed overall.

regarding tournaments- many tournaments used to supply the dice to be used, I still think its a good idea and would gladly pay extra, especially if the dice were special somehow and marked the event.

Edit-Would love to see the nid list that placed 3rd, and ork lists that placed High.

I am guessing the 400pt ork stompa is the mekstompa or some such, not sure its legal for use according to FW currently fwiw, but not sure been a while since I looked at its rules.

Is all this cheating and bad lists speculation or is it true? If true and it went on very long, how can the tournament have a winner in a field where almost half of the players played against illegal stuff? That's too bad. I'm sure a lot of people traveled a long distance to play there only for this to happen.. really stinks.

I can only speak for the Open lists and what I saw in it. I didn't pay much attention to what was the invitational.

Matt's Orks from memory:
Forgeworld Warboss-skilled rider to unit, scout, Init 4 powerclaw guy.
2 Warbosses with claws
Big Mek on bike with shokk attack gun.
3 units of 10-15 lootas each( cant remember how much each)
Unit of boys on foot- 20-30ish
1 max size unit of warbikers for all 3 warbosses to go in. 1 of em had lucky stikk!!!
3-5 man bike squads with nobs w/claws.
3 coptas

The tyranid list was an unbound flying circus if I remember right. I didn't fight it though so don't know the particulars. 3 Flyrants and I think the FW new Tyranid MC.

So I am a bit surprised by the reaction here. The TO's are doing the best they can and 40k is a complicated game where people make mistakes and sometimes will be able to catch cheating and sometimes you will not.

On the dice issue. That is cheating pure and simple. I think you have to treat it as a strict liability crime (meaning it is irrelevant if the person had the intention to cheat or not). The person when caught is immediately DQ'd and not eligible for any prize support. If it's only discovered at the end of the event all you can do is remove the person from the rankings. If discovered early (first game) opponent gets the win and the cheating player not allowed to participate for the rest of the event period. Any game that has happened without being caught results stay the same (no other option). If caught mid game that player gets the win.

For the player, if no intent people should accept his apology and welcome him at future events. If there is a history of cheating, then you can talk about not allowing him to enter events.

For the list construction issue. That should have been caught by the first opponent/TO's. If caught before dice are rolled let the person change his list as it almost certainly is just a misunderstanding. If the person cannot change their list than let him play (as this may be on the TO's fault )but no prize support and he is auto placed on the bottom table. If not caught until the end or after the first game, DQ the player from prize support and awards and have him change the list to make it legal going forward if possible andt have him play on bottom table because that at that point should just be for fun anyway.

I watched a good deal of Kenny's final two games (via the live stream) and he didn't win those games because of one loaded die. He won those games with superior tactics.

I'm in the camp that he didn't actually know he had a loaded die. My reason...he had the finals game well in hand from turn 3 onward. If he knew he had a loaded die...why would he leave it laying around for someone to potentially see when the game was obviously his to lose? He doesn't put me in the mind of a WAAC player (his and everyone's attitude at FTN seems 100% against WAAC), but if he were, he'd have swallowed that die after turn 3 of the finals.

Either way, the list snafu is the bigger issue. No matter what the TOs thought was the right move, the player should have DQd himself (as Kenny did when the die was discovered) or tweaked his list to get rid of the 3rd source. I personally would have been mortified and just dropped out of the competition, but that's just me...

Potential future dice fix: Everyone use the same dice. Whether there tournament provided or you bring your own, both players play with the same dice.

Potential future list fix: TOs need to pay attention to the lists at their tournaments??? Seems reasonable enough.

I will say that the Indy Open provided a dice pool at each table last year (2013 I think) and it was pretty awesome. While I love my dice I don't mind using an open pool.

Bummer....

I feel bad for the TO's - who put a lot of time and effort into organizing the event - then get bad press.

I feel bad for the player who is being questioned on dice. Most likely an honest mistake - there will be doubters regardless, but if you read his post - sounds like a honest mistake and he feels pretty bad about it.

Feel bad for the guy with the list. If you submit a list and it is ok by TO's - you should feel like you are good to go. Sure that is an honest mistake as well.

Would like to see the lists that were played and see/read some good battle reports. 7th and Tourneys are still pretty new - and hope they continue to grow and improve.

This was posted on Kenny's Next Level Painting FB page:

"This weekend I had a blast at feast of blades. It was simply amazing. Everyone was awesome. There was however a dice issue. I am humiliated and embarrassed that this has occurred. I did not know that there were illegal dice in my dice box. It was simply a mistake on my part. I know this is only an excuse, and no one has any reason to believe me. I purchased a party pack of dice on eBay. It was a random assortment of dice. The seller listed it simply as "one pound of randomly selected dice". 40k is more to me than simply winning. I have played for over 10 years and have professionally painted over 100 armies. For me, 40k is about hanging out with great friends and having a great weekend together while playing 40k. I often talk about there being a social-contract between each player for our 2-plus hour games. I am humiliated that I did not inspect my dice when I bought them and violated this social-contract with all of my opponents this weekend. I will now always inspect my dice and promise to show this amazing community that this situation is not indicative of me or my behavior. To my mother- who watched watched all of my streaming games this weekend, my brother, my friends, this community, and most importantly my opponents; I am sorry. This will never happen again."-Kenny

Breng77 wrote:
Then you will never attend a gt again, every event for any game will have someone do something shady or against the rules either on purpose or accidentally. TOs will never catch everything. There is also no good response beyond dqing the player going forward. Any retroactive awarding of wins messes up the whole event.
I thought they did DQ Kenny what else really needs to be done? Retroactively give all his opponents wins, and max points? IMO that is way less fair to everyone else, as it is unlikely that that would have actually happened.

Lesson here which should have been learned am while ago. Don't buy random bags of dice or at least check them if you do. Also events can provide dice if you really want to cut down on this issue.

I thought I made it clear that I wasn't as upset with the people accused of cheating but by the tournaments response to what happened. You can't eliminate all cheating, that's understood. But when it is exposed and you allow it to continue, you show you are unwilling to do what it takes to run a successful event. I didn't say go back and change all the standings, I merely said vacate their wins (they were using torrent of fire - all results should have been changed to losses and removed from the overall results).

So here is the thing. In this case I agree both players should be DQ'd (I don't care much about other wins, if they can get removed from torrent go ahead and do it (not sure that a double loss is possible in torrent though having used it, so changing one player to a loss means the other player wins.). Beyonds that sure DQ the guilty parties if you want for mistakes that were made, and give the prizes to other people. I'm just saying as a TO I know that my first GT had a "cheat" win the best general prize. Guy was playing rules wrong the whole event, but was never brought to my attention until the event was over. It happens. From my understanding it was exposed during the last game, so sure you could DQ both players at that point and have the next guys take the crown.

Kenny Got DQ'd as for the List issue, if the event was supposed to check lists, and let it through is that the players fault, or the events? It is kind of both, player for sending the list with a mistake in it, and event for not catching it. So when it comes up is it fair for the event that said "You're list is legal" to say sorry we screwed up and you are DQ'd.

Situation sucks all around.

Illegal list is illegal.

I find it funny that BoLS isn't reporting on cheating at a major tourney. They always seem eager to do it when there's an issue at nova...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Illegal list is illegal.

and your line of reasoning says Cheater dice are for cheaters....whats your point

 Julnlecs wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
.

Kenny wasn't the only one Breng. Joshua used an illegal list for most of his games. He was called out on it and all the judges did was allow him to change his list mid tournament and continue playing like nothing was wrong. He then ended up winning the invitational. Rules clearly said you could only take 2 sources and he took 3.

TOs should have caught it before tourney ( but they have a hard job) and once caught all games are forfeit.

and with the loaded dice (no mater guilt or innocence) the punishment was appropriate because a DQ is really all that is warranted.

However regardless of guilt no one should be shamed and forced from the game like the beaky con player was, people make mistakes in life ................their should be redemption especially in toy soldiers.

For.those.curious about lists, there was a lot of variety. One DE, SoB, GK (Centurion Star), Black Templars, Tau. Not a lot of spam lists. Only one titan, several knights but no knight primaries. The top Ork list was the 100 ork formation and it did well.

Sisters? Somebody took Sisters? Cool! How did they do?

zedsdead wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Illegal list is illegal.

and your line of reasoning says Cheater dice are for cheaters....whats your point

This is one of the reasons I enjoyed your policy zed of providing pretty amazing dice so everyone uses the same stuff. The whole situation is unfortunate and really puts a stain on FoB which from everyone I've talked to that has attended says is usually an amazing event and outside of this particular situation was an amazing event. I'm surprised people would say they won't be attending again because of it.

I took Sisters w/ a Knight Paladin. Got Kenny down to a squad of Daemonettes in the first round but he had points advantage and won, beat GK Centurion Star round 2, lost to a White Scars army (had him down to 3 bikes and one had the relic), beat DE in the last placement round and ended up in Bracket 3 on tiebreakers. First round beat Black Templars drop pod army w/ LR, second round beat a Necron list featuring two Command Barges, 3 Annihilation barges, 1 night scythe and 2 Ghost Arks. He played well but my range and outflanking/deep strike managed to overcome his fail at killing the knight with practically his whole.army shooting it turn 3. Last round of bracket 3 I lost to my friend John Capson who played Invisibility-star of 7 bright glances, 3 wave serpents, WK. He kept it all in reserve aside from the star and was able to grab 3/5 objectives to secure the win (I lost two units and he didn't lose any).

I've played in plenty of GT level events, but I've never been to Feast of Blades, and I don't know the guys who run it, but this list thing seems like an honest mistake on all parts. I'm not sure what this new-found fascination with attacking whoever manages to do well in big tournaments, but I don't think it's good for the hobby.

It's a weird coincidence if he had dice that randomly ended up in his bag without twos and he was playing Tzeentch (if I heard correctly earlier). Isn't that the one that lets you reroll ones but not twos?

This wasn't because someone did well, it was due to a list being outside of the rules.of the tournament. As far as Kenny playing Tzeentch, he didn't have any heralds or Grimoire in his list. He had two CSM Sorcerers and Belakor, and never rolled a single save on the Daemonettes. (In our game).

 pretre wrote:
It's a weird coincidence if he had dice that randomly ended up in his bag without twos and he was playing Tzeentch (if I heard correctly earlier). Isn't that the one that lets you reroll ones but not twos?

I don't have an opinion on this; I spoke with Chandler about how Feast in general went, and I trust him to do the best he can by his event.

I will say that this was the WORST possible # for Kenny to've had in his bag, presuming it was just an unlucky purchase. Five is a MAJOR # to roll on both Malefic and Telepathy psychic powers, as well as the aforementioned value of it from a Tzeentch perspective, and there are numerous other examples from the current game where rolling 5 = awesome. It also stands out less than 1's and 6's. If you roll 10 dice and 5 of them are 5's while three of them are 1's, you'll hear someone complain or cheer about the improbable odds of rolling 3 1's in only 10 dice, but not say a word about half of the results being 5. Same would be true of 3's and 4's.

I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt, and as a TO have no doubt Chandler and co did the best they could, but I do think it sucks for Kenny if this was an honest mistake that the # was a 5, and that the couple dice in his bag were all doubled up on the 5's (i.e., it didn't randomly include some dice with double 6's, and some with double 5's, etc., but all of the "bad" dice were double 5's).