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zilka86 wrote:
Who really plays games under 1500pts that's where i started play ing is at 1500pts now we normal play 2500pts and one low per army


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Who really plays games under 1500pts that's where i started play ing is at 1500pts now we normal play 2500pts and one low per army

What the feth? WHAT?

 Matthew wrote:
What the feth? WHAT?

Welcome to a thread involving zilka86

If you're new, an autarch can be good, as psychics can be a bit odd. The reserve roll adjustment it gives it handy if you end up using reserves.
But yeah, the Farseer is better for most uses. The Spiritseer can be good too, but is more a squad add-on than a proper boss. For small cheap games, either have a place.

Some tips on this I would like to give you. Note that this in NOT competitive playing, but the list will still have to make some sense:

- Ignore Guardians. 10 models minimal for an Eldar squad is terrifyingly awful. Fire Warriors and Kabalite Warriors squads can come in 6 and 5, respectively, and are more usable. I don't see the point of Guardians.

- Rangers are superior to Dire Avengers in small games. In all my 1000 points games, a lot of the time, the Avengers never fire a single shot before all enemies are cut down. In larger games, they can still be helpful at babysitting objectives and lay some long-range supporting fire.

- Don't use any close combat T3 Eldar. They are not even fun to play.

- Apart from rangers, all Eldar infantry should be embarked on Wave Serpent. Foot-slogging kamikaze is not the way of the samurai... I mean, the Eldar. The only exception is using Gate of Infinity to Deepstrike units across the field.

- For Fast Attack, Viper is versatile and easy to use. If you are new, this is the best choice.

- I don't see any good in having an Eldar army that is so static, so the Wraithknight is the only option for Heavy Support I would accept. Note that he costs a lot.

- Fire Dragons are the only Elite worth taking. They can take on tanks and Monstrous Creatures, and are reasonably tough.

- Ignore any of the named characters. All of them cost more than a Carnifex and none of them can fight one.

- Farseer is a good start for an HQ. Her spells can really boost the performance of other units.


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 Jancoran wrote:

turtleman wrote:
As the title says, I have no experience playing whatsoever. I'd like to start by playing Eldar. What should I buy in order to prepare myself for a game? I'm not sure how many points most games are and I don't know what units to buy to start off with.
Thanks in advance.

borrow stuff before you buy is good advice. Many players will let you. Take advantage of that.

In the Heavy Slot, WarWalkers are pretty brilliant for a large number of lists. So three of those are never a waste. Dual Star Cannons are scary.

For troops, my favorite is probably the Guardian Defenders with their Missile Launcher that still Pins and is AP 4 when its a blast. Pretty legit.

For Elites, there's a clogged category. Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents is probably hard to say no to, although my prsonal favorite are the Striing Scorpions (But Fire Dragons will gain more universale traction amongst most players)

Fast Attacks are tough too but I think the nod for best unit HAS to go to Warp Spiders. Crimson Hunter is a close second. Having anti-air like that is critical in the way things are so probably grab both.

as for HQ's, its real hard to vote against Eldrad. I don't ever use him but his strategic value before the game even starts is enormous and he's at least pretty decent in close combat. But of course he's mostly there for Psyker powers. My Psykers of choice are the Seer Council on Bikes as well as a pair of Hemlock Fighters. Cause FMC's are a pain in the ass. You'd be hard pressed ever to regret taking Eldrad though.
.

Which edition are you playing? This is not how I play and win as Eldar:

- Guardian Defenders are awful. 20 of them even with Missile Launcher can't take on 10 Fire Warriors. Range 12" will guarantee they never get to shoot with their Shuriken Catapult.

- Best Fast Attack is Warp Spiders, quick getting-in-and-shoot-the-crap-out-of-everyone-before-getting-out. The second place is the Viper, very low-risk and versatile. People tend to ignore Vipers. Crimson Hunters are best in dealing with Flyers and FMC, but are too fragile for such high cost.

- Why field Eldrad when you can have 2 Farseers instead? Lower risk and guaranteeing more Warp Charges.

Guardians can work just fine if used appropriately. They are more of a low cost defensive support unit. Comparing a single squad to a squad of something else with a different role is absurd. That's like saying "well these scissors cut paper better than this stick of butter".

Effective use of guardians is taking 3-4 squads of 10 with a support weapon to sit on deployment zone objectives. It doesn't end there either as you can't just use the Guardians. They need other units to support them, while they support other units. Taking Wraithlords with AT weapons to also sit with them is a good example. All of the AT weapons can shoot at armor/MCs moving across the field so that your AI units can eat up the troops inside. When units get close to your objectives, the Wraithlords can be used as a counter assault unit after the guardians shoot with their catapults.

Saying something is worthless is moot when you don't give accurate examples of proper usage. It's not that cut and dry.

Often my Guardians are ignored until late game, all the while the cheap little squad has blown up 1-3 tanks with their lance/missile/scatter laser making their points back.

One of my most effective units is a serpent bound squad of storm guardians with flamers. Great for getting around to the enemy objectives in their deployment zone and melting weaker units of infantry (IG, Tau, other Eldar) and then claiming that objective for themselves.

1. Try before you Buy as much as you can.
2. Ebay, ebay, ebay, ebay. Especially if you're buying non competitive units like Rangers (they're pure garbage in game)
3. Don't buy too many HQs, you want one at most until you're past 1000 points.
4. Don't listen to the people who say Wave Serpents and WK will get you no friends.
5. Don't listen to the people who say not playing those will lose you every game.
6. Take your time, observe games from people who play that army, watch replays on youtube, take your time.

bibotot wrote:


Which edition are you playing? This is not how I play and win as Eldar:

- Guardian Defenders are awful. 20 of them even with Missile Launcher can't take on 10 Fire Warriors. Range 12" will guarantee they never get to shoot with their Shuriken Catapult.

- Best Fast Attack is Warp Spiders, quick getting-in-and-shoot-the-crap-out-of-everyone-before-getting-out. The second place is the Viper, very low-risk and versatile. People tend to ignore Vipers. Crimson Hunters are best in dealing with Flyers and FMC, but are too fragile for such high cost.

- Why field Eldrad when you can have 2 Farseers instead? Lower risk and guaranteeing more Warp Charges.

Hello Bibotot.

I take it you're not familiar with me or my blog. =)

While I appreciate your point of view, I think you are really missing some opportunities. Guardians are excellent, and they fit well in a wave spam list. I also love their ability to bring their platform to bear on the move toward objectives especially given the ability to fire and run. Dire Avengers are only taken REALLY to cheapen the Wave Serpent costs, not because they are truly preferable offensively to 10 Guardians. Avengers are an economical choice at 5 strong. Nothing wrong with them. Just not the offensive weapon I want them to be especially given that they spend the majority of their turn IN the Serpent anyways. I can sucker people into firing on the Guardians for a round while exposed instead o more valuable things and THEN get them in if I want to and I've potentially preserved other units and maintained my scoring ability better than it was before. Cover is prolific and you're riding in a cover providing vehicle that you can get behind for such occassions if you want the Weapons platform to do work for a round.
Are guardians Gods gift to Warhammer? No. but they also aren't priced like it so who cares?

Warp Spiders are good but the proliferation of FMC's and flyers makes the Crimson hunter invaluable. Highly recommend it with Star Cannons and an Exarch. But I LOVE Warp Spiders and I run an army that has 30 in it so. There's that.

Eldrad is strategically powerful. I mostly employ a strategy of positional dominance in my games, so i value him more than you perhaps? his utility goes beyond just the stats. His ability to redeploy is fantastic. He's a tacticians buddy in games you're FORCE to go first in.

 Jancoran wrote:

bibotot wrote:


Which edition are you playing? This is not how I play and win as Eldar:

- Guardian Defenders are awful. 20 of them even with Missile Launcher can't take on 10 Fire Warriors. Range 12" will guarantee they never get to shoot with their Shuriken Catapult.

- Best Fast Attack is Warp Spiders, quick getting-in-and-shoot-the-crap-out-of-everyone-before-getting-out. The second place is the Viper, very low-risk and versatile. People tend to ignore Vipers. Crimson Hunters are best in dealing with Flyers and FMC, but are too fragile for such high cost.

- Why field Eldrad when you can have 2 Farseers instead? Lower risk and guaranteeing more Warp Charges.

Hello Bibotot.

I take it you're not familiar with me or my blog. =)

While I appreciate your point of view, I think you are really missing some opportunities. Guardians are excellent, and they fit well in a wave spam list. I also love their ability to bring their platform to bear on the move toward objectives especially given the ability to fire and run. Dire Avengers are only taken REALLY to cheapen the Wave Serpent costs, not because they are truly preferable offensively to 10 Guardians. Avengers are an economical choice at 5 strong. Nothing wrong with them. Just not the offensive weapon I want them to be especially given that they spend the majority of their turn IN the Serpent anyways. I can sucker people into firing on the Guardians for a round while exposed instead o more valuable things and THEN get them in if I want to and I've potentially preserved other units and maintained my scoring ability better than it was before. Cover is prolific and you're riding in a cover providing vehicle that you can get behind for such occassions if you want the Weapons platform to do work for a round.
Are guardians Gods gift to Warhammer? No. but they also aren't priced like it so who cares?

Warp Spiders are good but the proliferation of FMC's and flyers makes the Crimson hunter invaluable. Highly recommend it with Star Cannons and an Exarch. But I LOVE Warp Spiders and I run an army that has 30 in it so. There's that.

Eldrad is strategically powerful. I mostly employ a strategy of positional dominance in my games, so i value him more than you perhaps? his utility goes beyond just the stats. His ability to redeploy is fantastic. He's a tacticians buddy in games you're FORCE to go first in.

I appreciate your efforts to point out other usable Eldar armies.

But let's be honest, none of your lists stand a chance against a fully optimized list.

That said, I have a Bladestorm spam list with 60 guardians and 8 Wave Serpents with 6 SC in test and the sheer number of bodies and BS shots comes in handy quite often.

IMO, DA are terrible for their point cost and if there was an MSU Guardian at 65 points, I'd pick Guardians over DA every time.

Unfortunately, if you want to curbstomp in tournies, one particular build is optimal (WK + 4 Davu Serpents + AT weapons to flavor - ask if you want details), but unless your local opponents are mind-numbingly competitive, neither you nor your opponent is going to enjoy those games.

If you just build what you like conceptually, you will get a much better grasp of the game, and your games will be a lot more fun for both players.

Guardians are big on positional dominance. They sit back and put some heavy weapon shots down-field. There are cheaper ways to get those heavy weapons, but (1) each guardian might be easily killed, but there are 10 of them, and you should be blue to hide in cover, (2) with Battle focus and a Relentless heavy weapon, they are rather mobile for troops, and (3), the biggest, if some Greater Demon or melee Marines or Nid monster shows up behind them, they can actually do some damage. Not gonna push much, though. Think of their catapalts as a sidearm. Don't plan on using it, but if your opponent ignores them, it can do a lot of damage.

DAs have 18" range. When fighting other troops or elite infantry, 18" battlefoxus makes them quite effective. Much more than Guardians over multiple rounds, when it comes to positioning and mobility.

Guardians and DAs have very different roles.

I guess what i'm saying is that they all have their uses and roles. Decide based on personal taste, and have some fun. No need to netlist.

morgoth wrote:



I appreciate your efforts to point out other usable Eldar armies.

But let's be honest, none of your lists stand a chance against a fully optimized list..

Lol. I wish i had a dollar for every time someone told me that. I wish i had $10 for every time i beat one of those lists you're talking about. =)


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Bharring wrote:
Unfortunately, if you want to curbstomp in tournies, .

You mean like this one or some other variant?

http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/11/tau-empire-vs-eldar-battle-report.html

 Jancoran wrote:

morgoth wrote:



I appreciate your efforts to point out other usable Eldar armies.

But let's be honest, none of your lists stand a chance against a fully optimized list..

Lol. I wish i had a dollar for every time someone told me that. I wish i had $10 for every time i beat one of those lists you're talking about. =)

It's more of a list+player+environment combo though.
I was just saying list to consider all the other parameters equal, including luck.
From my experience playing some excellent lists rather bad, I can totally see a better player winning with a worse list.


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 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Unfortunately, if you want to curbstomp in tournies, .

You mean like this one or some other variant?

http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/11/tau-empire-vs-eldar-battle-report.html

The list you faced looks very weak compared to 5WS 3WK at 1850 points (not 2000).

It isn't weak. That deathstar he has is very legit and gets on you very fast. Fortunately I had a plan and knew what it could do from past experience. Also fortunately, he made one mistake in that game that probably cost him the match. Some of Warhammer is jut making less mistakes than the other guy.

3 Wraith Knights is iffy to me. That's my opinion. Not because it isn't powerful. It is. Very. Those three stand guard while the Wave Serpents pummel you and shoot to objectives at games end. Very powerful against ANYTHING that does not engage heavily in melee and FAST.

But the one and only time I ever faced 3 Wraith Knights (its not a truly common army), all three Knights died in round 2. As good as they are, they have a few hard counters. In my case the hard counter were my Grotesques, which I take in every Dark Eldar list (who wouldn't?). They ate them and the Serpents in the end. Any Dark Eldar can take one WK out with shooting before that happens and then its a matter of angling to cut off escape for the Serpents which also isn't rocket science with speed like Dark Eldar boast.

I also saw a guy who plays 5 Imperial Knights wack that same type list. Now the 5 Knights list ALSO has problems and probably won't be winning a TON of tournaments, but it sure as heck can knock the list you're talking about out. I've seen it.

The strategy of taking things that are hard to kill is fine. But the Serpents are susceptible to melee and the Wraith Knights are susceptible to Instant Death or just plain high str AP 3 or better volume of fire. Grav gun. etc..

I took 27 Stingwings and 15 Stealthsuits in a list and killed a DUAL (not triple) Wraith Knight list with Wave Spam as well. I used Pathfinders to knock out the Serpents for the most part but it was hilarious to see Stingwings downing Wraith Knights. 27 Stingwings average 3.75 wounds a round against a Wraith Knight with their Markerlight buddies helping and the Stealthsuits can finish them. It was a jarring reminder that nothing is unbeatable. Nothing I create and nothing you create.

I think the Eldar Wave Spam code is cracked. I even built a Night Lords army that is SPECIFICALLY designed to kill Serpent Spam just because I find that list so annoying, which is posted on my blog.

This litany of victories by myself or others, doesn't diminish the enormous threat such an Eldar army represents. One bad round of dice or one faulty decision against Wave Spam can be the end of you. An army needs to EXECUTE well even if you have a plan for it.

But don't you agree with me that the way to beat Wave Spam has kind of been cracked? You take your fists and you beat those hulls into the dust. It's not elegant but it's the answer. Shooting is NOT the answer. FAST Melee is. Wouldn't you agree? If that IS the answer, and you build around that need, then it stands to reason that your melee selections should be built to handle the Knights also, am I right?

 Jancoran wrote:
It isn't weak. That deathstar he has is very legit and gets on you very fast. Fortunately I had a plan and knew what it could do from past experience. Also fortunately, he made one mistake in that game that probably cost him the match. Some of Warhammer is jut making less mistakes than the other guy.

Oh I agree, 3 WK is too much WK, I stick to one or two depending on the days.

Point being, that list you played against is not that good and would be trashed by any serious competitive list nine times out of ten.

I'm not saying it's useless, it's just not good enough to be competitive.

5 Imperial Knights is a skew build, it's going to go out of fashion like all skew builds before it - or whatever happened to the other skew builds.

It's rather easy to kill Eldar with Tau - depending on terrain though - but fielding Stingwings ? in a TAC list in a tournament ?


It's very easy to kill WS Spam with a tailored list, just try with a proper TAC list, that's hard.

And Wave Spam is not as forgiving as it seems.



I agree with your answer to WS Spam, what's hard is integrating that into a tournament ready TAC list that can handle broadside spam, screamer star, centurion star, bakery (not anymore mwahahahahha... one week to evil laugh) and 5 IK.

WK are not good enough in my opinion, there are way too many things that can lock them in place, and I have several lists where I just got rid of them, because they need to be in CC to be effective, yet can't handle quite a few CC threats.

Even today, I almost lost a WK to a single Destroyer lord and a single remaining Wraith (plus a zoanthrope whose brothers I had just murdererd).

That's not the kind of reliability you expect from a CC beast, the WK is not good enough in that role against true CC units, like TWC for example or badass units like Imperial Knights (lolStomp).

It's still the best Land Raider Opener I've ever seen, just mostly an easy fix to the Serpents weaknesses.

Some would argue that MY list was not a match for his. what would you say to them?

You migth think his isn't competitive, and I might disagree. but lets assume you're right for a moment. My list would no doubt have been seen side by side to his as inferior. Yet the list ALLOWED me to play a certain way that brought me victory. Convincingly.

The list is a tool bag. So since the original Poster is asking for help on what to take, i stand by the basic advice i handed out. I think strategic discussions are rare and have largely been replaced with kill ratios and points/MEQ kill calculations etc...

But when you're starting out with Eldar, while the temptation to go buy 5 Wave Serpents must be akin to Meth addiction and the reward far better than that addiciton... They just are not the only answer. and guys like me who kind of have figured out how to toast that army so long as my army executes the plan successfully, it is kind of walking into a trap you know is there to go buy all those hulls.

It probably wont shock you to know that I own a single Wave Serpent. I have an ENORMOUS mini collection... but one Wave Serpent. And it rarely sees action.

Yet i think my opponents would tell you I do exceedingly well. So my exhortation to the original poster is not to get addicted to the Hull crack and to look outside that for viable solutions. They ARE there, yes, even in a competitive environment.

I'll drop this list on you as an example of an army I have had success using. Only one loss to date (Tzeentch FMC, but then... you know...Tzeentch FMC... So there's that). that los came before It occurred to me to use the hemlocks Psychic Shriek ability on them. Dunno why it didn't occur at the time but... Live and learn.

3 War Walkrs (dual Star Cannons)
2 WarWalkers (1 with Dual Star cannons, 1 w/ Flakk Missile and Scatter Laser)

Vauls Wrath (3 D-Cannons)

Eldar Guardians (Eldar Missile Launcher)

3 x 3 Windryder Jetbike units

Autarch (Jetbike, Power Weapon, Phoenix Gem, Fusion Gun, Mandiblaster)

2 x Hemlock Fighters

Crimson Hunter (Exarch w/Markmans Eye, Star Cannons)

9 Warlocks on Jetbikes (7 Singing Spears)

1998 Points

Now this list kind of illustrates what you can do with a bit of creativity.

1. 11 Psyker dice and yet no central Psyker to go after and three units who can use it very effectively.
2. Plenty of AP 2 to kill down the enemy anti-air in turn one or if you prefer, outflank it to do the same if cover is too much an obstacle.
3. Reserve manipulation.
4. Instant Death and/or High powered barrage weaponry to get past Imperial Knight Shields in case the Vector Dancing Hunter, Warlocks, Guardians and outflanking War Walkers aren't up to the task on their own.
5. AV 14 Can openers that are pretty good at staying alive nd hih can be ued to tear open wave serpents. In conjunction with the War walkers you can force unfavorable or unenviable angles o nthe Skimmers.
6. Objective stealing ability and speed that can reserve itself until needed.
7. Anti-air.
8. Anti-TEQ
9 Anti-Horde
10. Attacks Leadership.

There is no perfect world but this list does a LOT and asks a lot of its enemy in order to stop it. Any non-fearless army struggles the most against it. But because it is a rarity to see an army like this one, I am sure someone could have all kins of things to say about it. But one thing none can say about it is that it doesn't work. It obviously has. it was 12-1 before I went on to other projects, and I hope it gives creative sorts ideas outside just the Serpent Spam and Wraith Knights of the world.

 Jancoran wrote:
Some would argue that MY list was not a match for his. what would you say to them?

Your list was weak as well.

But since both lists are rather far from optimal *and* you have the magical ignores cover tricks that auto feth Eldar Wave Serpents, it was probably balanced.

 Jancoran wrote:

You migth think his isn't competitive, and I might disagree. but lets assume you're right for a moment. My list would no doubt have been seen side by side to his as inferior. Yet the list ALLOWED me to play a certain way that brought me victory. Convincingly.

The list is a tool bag. So since the original Poster is asking for help on what to take, i stand by the basic advice i handed out. I think strategic discussions are rare and have largely been replaced with kill ratios and points/MEQ kill calculations etc...

Or maybe both your lists were rather average and there was a fair chance to win for either player.

 Jancoran wrote:

But when you're starting out with Eldar, while the temptation to go buy 5 Wave Serpents must be akin to Meth addiction and the reward far better than that addiciton... They just are not the only answer. and guys like me who kind of have figured out how to toast that army so long as my army executes the plan successfully, it is kind of walking into a trap you know is there to go buy all those hulls.

The list you posted will not last a turn against a proper competitive list.

Turn one I take your markerlights and your commander, then it's GG I can just flat out to your deployment zone, unload and charge everything I can't shoot for a turn or two, and GG.

I could probably take your Tau list with 1000 points of pure competitive Eldar if terrain or first turn are on my side.

That's how bad it really is.

 Jancoran wrote:

It probably wont shock you to know that I own a single Wave Serpent. I have an ENORMOUS mini collection... but one Wave Serpent. And it rarely sees action.

Yet i think my opponents would tell you I do exceedingly well. So my exhortation to the original poster is not to get addicted to the Hull crack and to look outside that for viable solutions. They ARE there, yes, even in a competitive environment.

No they are not. Look at the top lists at NOVA or some other big tournament without crazy restrictions, your very playable lists in the hands of an experienced general are still far from competitive.

 Jancoran wrote:

I'll drop this list on you as an example of an army I have had success using. Only one loss to date (Tzeentch FMC, but then... you know...Tzeentch FMC... So there's that). that los came before It occurred to me to use the hemlocks Psychic Shriek ability on them. Dunno why it didn't occur at the time but... Live and learn.

3 War Walkrs (dual Star Cannons)
2 WarWalkers (1 with Dual Star cannons, 1 w/ Flakk Missile and Scatter Laser)

Vauls Wrath (3 D-Cannons)

Eldar Guardians (Eldar Missile Launcher)

3 x 3 Windryder Jetbike units

Autarch (Jetbike, Power Weapon, Phoenix Gem, Fusion Gun, Mandiblaster)

2 x Hemlock Fighters

Crimson Hunter (Exarch w/Markmans Eye, Star Cannons)

9 Warlocks on Jetbikes (7 Singing Spears)

1998 Points

Now this list kind of illustrates what you can do with a bit of creativity.

1. 11 Psyker dice and yet no central Psyker to go after and three units who can use it very effectively.
2. Plenty of AP 2 to kill down the enemy anti-air in turn one or if you prefer, outflank it to do the same if cover is too much an obstacle.
3. Reserve manipulation.
4. Instant Death and/or High powered barrage weaponry to get past Imperial Knight Shields in case the Vector Dancing Hunter, Warlocks, Guardians and outflanking War Walkers aren't up to the task on their own.
5. AV 14 Can openers that are pretty good at staying alive nd hih can be ued to tear open wave serpents. In conjunction with the War walkers you can force unfavorable or unenviable angles o nthe Skimmers.
6. Objective stealing ability and speed that can reserve itself until needed.
7. Anti-air.
8. Anti-TEQ
9 Anti-Horde
10. Attacks Leadership.

There is no perfect world but this list does a LOT and asks a lot of its enemy in order to stop it. Any non-fearless army struggles the most against it. But because it is a rarity to see an army like this one, I am sure someone could have all kins of things to say about it. But one thing none can say about it is that it doesn't work. It obviously has. it was 12-1 before I went on to other projects, and I hope it gives creative sorts ideas outside just the Serpent Spam and Wraith Knights of the world.

You have no reasonable anti tank or anti air, you're sinking 550 points in a warlock council that cannot tank for gak and 370 points in the worst flyers ever, and then you throw starcannons on war walkers when you could have either gone scatter for anti air, scatter / lance for balanced or lance lance for anti tank (questionable with all the investment in the council).

You live in another world if you think that Eldar list can be competitive.

I would table your list turn 3 without even trying.

At 2000 points, I bring 9 Wave Serpents and 2 Night Spinners, if you get first turn you may even kill a single WS with some luck and your WWs on the table. Probably just jink one or two.
On my turn one, I'll take your Vaul's Wrath, your WW, your Warlocks which you'll have moved up field in a bet to actually make them useful.

If I get first turn, I take your Vaul's battery, your War Walkers and most of your warlocks turn one and there's nothing you can do about it except null deployment, in which case it's just a free Maelstrom turn or an attempt to table you depending on what's possible.
If your WW are not on the table, I'll kill everything that's in sight and castle up waiting for you to deploy your army.

Whenever your flyers get on, they'll probably deal one or two HP to one of my tanks at most, and then they just go down that same turn.
Same for the War Walkers, when they get on, they'll deal one or two HPs, and then go down.

When your forces are bound to just die after their first intervention, you want to make sure they'll deal damage.

I can take down your whole army in two turns of shooting, maximum three.
You can take down my army in maybe 10 turns, including assault.

So how do you expect to win exactly ?

To the original Poster:

Get more council than just "Wave spam is the way the truth and the light". Morgoth isnt wrong to say this is a highly effective way to play. Keep in mind though: most people DON’T play at NOVA, Adepticon, TempleCon, the Bay Area open etc… So MOST of your games and tournaments aren't going to be like that anyways.

When you are good, you will find that the codex and it's entries open up to you. Enemies are even LESS prepared to handle your force because it is more unique and with less "strongpoints" they can attack (example: my Dark Eldar can smash several Wave spam hulls in round 2 with almost guaranteed assurance and with no interference by the Wraith Kights, if things go average). They are so used to gun lining Wave Serpents, builing their lists for it, only to be confronted by a much different force that they must now adjust to. As soon as an enemy is forced out of their normal mode of thought, you're doing something right.

Good luck. I really hope the Eldar are a great joy to play for you AND your opponents. That's one other nice thing about opening the other pages of the Codex and using them: More opponents want to play you. =) So there's a social benefit to being a better General also.

Lots of games is the only way to learn!

 Jancoran wrote:
To the original Poster:

Get more council than just "Wave spam is the way the truth and the light". Morgoth isnt wrong to say this is a highly effective way to play. Keep in mind though: most people DON’T play at NOVA, Adepticon, TempleCon, the Bay Area open etc… So MOST of your games and tournaments aren't going to be like that anyways.

When you are good, you will find that the codex and it's entries open up to you. Enemies are even LESS prepared to handle your force because it is more unique and with less "strongpoints" they can attack (example: my Dark Eldar can smash several Wave spam hulls in round 2 with almost guaranteed assurance and with no interference by the Wraith Kights, if things go average). They are so used to gun lining Wave Serpents, builing their lists for it, only to be confronted by a much different force that they must now adjust to. As soon as an enemy is forced out of their normal mode of thought, you're doing something right.

Good luck. I really hope the Eldar are a great joy to play for you AND your opponents. That's one other nice thing about opening the other pages of the Codex and using them: More opponents want to play you. =) So there's a social benefit to being a better General also.

Lots of games is the only way to learn!

A Council whether on foot or on jetbikes is not a unit for beginner.
Eldar is generally not an army for starters.

 wuestenfux wrote:

A Council whether on foot or on jetbikes is not a unit for beginner.
Eldar is generally not an army for starters.

Hmm... what makes you say that? My very first Eldar army was Ulthwe and i didn't find it difficult to learn. Eldar were nice for me because unlike the Tau Empire I had always played bfore that, they had a tool for every job, and were very powerful Psykers which appealed to the D&D Magic User in me.

What makes it difficult? I confess, i haven't been new for a long time so I pick up armis and can use them readily enough but I suppose for a newer player I would have thought the Swiss Army Knife of 40K was a good one.

Eldar is an unforgiving army even if you play Serpent spam.
Noob and Eldar don't go together.

I figured by 'council', he was talking about getting more advice.

I'm really glad I started with SM, despite enjoying Eldar the most. SM taught me to understand different roles and units. Had I started with Eldar, I probably would have been a much more spammy player. But that's me. I'm a TFG at heart, and struggle to keep things fun for my opponent. If OP loves Eldar, start with what you love.

Starting with a Jetseer might be a bit off. Small foot council might be fun at the start, though. Comes down to what the OP likes the idea of.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Eldar is an unforgiving army even if you play Serpent spam.
Noob and Eldar don't go together.

That is such a lie. I had 0 xp playing eldar, but had to replace a team member that got sick. I also never played 1850pts before. I manged to get 2 major , 2 draws out of which one was very important ,because it knocked off a lot of small points from the team that was behind us and 1 minor victory against tyranids, which was probably my hardest game and I won it only due to luck and cover ignoring. On the second day I got 2 majors and a small victory that gave us the second place. The 7 games were my first games playing eldar, the last game I got only a small victory and didn't play, because my opponent droped out on purpose to lower our small points score.



Eldar are an easy army to play. If your a noob their rules are powerful enough to cover for some lack of skill and help dominate over people with same skill. And if your not a noob, then again the superior rules help win against people with higher skill.

I mean for christs sake, I got a small win against a euro champ player who knows the ins and outs of his army like no other play I know off. And am not even near national skill level.

Don't read walls of text - if you'll chose Eldar everybody will hate no metter what, so go all in.

Farseer on jetbike with mantle of the LG
4 * 5 dire avengers in wave serpent
2 * 7 warp spiders
2 wrathknights
...

elotar wrote:
Don't read walls of text - if you'll chose Eldar everybody will hate no metter what, so go all in.

Farseer on jetbike with mantle of the LG
4 * 5 dire avengers in wave serpent
2 * 7 warp spiders
2 wrathknights
...

Yup thats a solid list right there.

Not friendly. but really competitive.

Welcome Turtleman.

All I would offer is that you can build an army with just about anything in the codex. Personally, I don't run wraith-anything because it doesn't fit with the fluff I've developed for my Craftworld. Some people don't think you can win/play without them. Who knows. I don't play tournaments, but I'm the resident preferred enemy in my group, which has almost every army group represented except Daemons and DE (Tau, CSM, AI, SM, Crons, Orks, Nids, BA, SW). Tau give me the biggest run for my money. I would caution against just buying tons of stuff right out of the gate. I have quite a few units that I bought early on and ran once (Banshees, for example). In fact, I really developed my buy list after playing on Vassal. It's great because you can try any unit out without having to buy or build anything. You'll get a sense for what you like, what works for you, and how to play the game without ever spending a penny. (In fact, the only time I tried a Wraith-tourney list was on Vassal and I decided I wouldn't keep my friends if I ran it so that was it).

That said, I like Dakka Serpents w/DA, GJBs, Jetseer Councils, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, War Walkers and Nightspinners. I probably have at least one of everything, but that's what I usually run. I like fast Mechdar lists, but that's just me.

 mars2024 wrote:
(In fact, the only time I tried a Wraith-tourney list was on Vassal and I decided I wouldn't keep my friends if I ran it so that was it)

What does that even mean ?

Friends wouldn't leave you because of your list, so they're not friends to begin with.

And then, the certainty that a competitive list would get you excluded of your local gaming circle ?

Since when are we supposed to bow to the mellow-list-fascists ?

It's not only shocking that you would think such a thing, it's even more shocking that it's at least the twentieth time I've read such a statement.

Is the wargaming community as a whole simply unable to handle slight imbalance ?

Has anyone ever heard of handicaps ?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Eldar is an unforgiving army even if you play Serpent spam.
Noob and Eldar don't go together.

I started 40k with Mechdar in 4e, I did fine. They can be finicky but the learning curve isn't bad at all.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Eldar is an unforgiving army even if you play Serpent spam.
Noob and Eldar don't go together.

I started 40k with Mechdar in 4e, I did fine. They can be finicky but the learning curve isn't bad at all.

In 4th Edition, Mechdar was easier than now, you could hardly lose your vehicles.

It was bumrush, unload, charge, win.

Now there's this whole bit about avoiding assault while still landing objectives that may be in the middle of the table - it's a lot trickier.


Today, if you play Eldar Mech and don't have a good grasp on positioning and deployment (this is usually the case with beginners), you'll lose very easily thanks to your rear AV10 of doom.

Mechdar are easy as pie - even a noob can become decently competitive with it in no time. Footdar are tricky and will require constant trials+fails to get even remotedly decent.

 koooaei wrote:
Mechdar are easy as pie - even a noob can become decently competitive with it in no time. Footdar are tricky and will require constant trials+fails to get even remotedly decent.

Mechdar are easy as pie as long as you play weak opponents yes. It's way different if you play people on your level.

There are many things that eat a Mechdar build alive for mistakes much smaller than unoptimized deployment.

Of course, weaker builds require better mastery, that's nothing new.

As much as I agree with everyone that you would want to play seprent spam with a couple of wraithknights and warp spiders if you were in a competitive setting, I actually believe there are many more fun armies you can throw out there.

I had an infiltrate army with only 3 war walkers for vehicles, no dire avengers, and no wave serpents. And I actually won games. Against Marines. Everyone is so used to serpent spam by this point that they know how to fight it. Throw something unusual out of the book and everyone loses their minds.

You can do so much with Eldar. Trust me I have over 22,000 points worth of it.

morgoth wrote:

 mars2024 wrote:
(In fact, the only time I tried a Wraith-tourney list was on Vassal and I decided I wouldn't keep my friends if I ran it so that was it)

What does that even mean ?

Friends wouldn't leave you because of your list, so they're not friends to begin with.

And then, the certainty that a competitive list would get you excluded of your local gaming circle ?

Since when are we supposed to bow to the mellow-list-nazis ?

It's not only shocking that you would think such a thing, it's even more shocking that it's at least the twentieth time I've read such a statement.

Is the wargaming community as a whole simply unable to handle slight imbalance ?

Has anyone ever heard of handicaps ?

I beat (tabled) 2000 pts of SW with 1200 pts of Wraithguard, Wraithknights and whatever (I don't really remember the list). It wasn't fun for me. Our Codex is OP and that's fine, but I get tired of hearing about it constantly. I don't need to rub it in my friends' faces.