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2015/03/11 08:25:19
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Wyzilla wrote: Considering that Horus is a wus compared to his Primarch brethren outside of tactical prowess? Yeah, the HH could have been a lot worse if somebody else fell, like Magnus or Vulkan becoming the champion of Chaos. Also, it should be noted that Horus wasn't even supposed to win. Chaos chose him as a sacrificial lamb to wound the Emperor badly enough that he could not continue to fight, but still hold on to enough strength to hold the Imperium together in a somewhat stable state. The Chaos Gods never wanted to fully destroy the Imperium, otherwise there would be no eternal war to amuse themselves with.
I thought fluff repeatedly states how Horus was the greatest of them all, not just through his tactical prowess? And Vulkan as a champion of Chaos is a strange image, haha. I don't really think he'd be able to do nearly as much though. And Magnus was too much under Tzeentch's influence to be a champion of Chaos Undivided.
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
My hands. They, too, are golden.
2015/03/11 08:27:50
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Wyzilla wrote: Considering that Horus is a wus compared to his Primarch brethren outside of tactical prowess? Yeah, the HH could have been a lot worse if somebody else fell, like Magnus or Vulkan becoming the champion of Chaos. Also, it should be noted that Horus wasn't even supposed to win. Chaos chose him as a sacrificial lamb to wound the Emperor badly enough that he could not continue to fight, but still hold on to enough strength to hold the Imperium together in a somewhat stable state. The Chaos Gods never wanted to fully destroy the Imperium, otherwise there would be no eternal war to amuse themselves with.
I thought fluff repeatedly states how Horus was the greatest of them all, not just through his tactical prowess? And Vulkan as a champion of Chaos is a strange image, haha. I don't really think he'd be able to do nearly as much though. And Magnus was too much under Tzeentch's influence to be a champion of Chaos Undivided.
Horus was a jack of all trades, but ace of none. His only real advantage over his brothers was his charisma- otherwise Sanguinius, Magnus, the Lion, Konrad Curze, and Angron were his physical superiors until his empowerment. And had say, Sangiunius been empowered by Chaos instead of Horus, he would most certainly be stronger then Chaos Horus.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2015/03/11 08:32:30
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Wyzilla wrote: Horus was a jack of all trades, but ace of none. His only real advantage over his brothers was his charisma- otherwise Sanguinius, Magnus, the Lion, Konrad Curze, and Angron were his physical superiors until his empowerment. And had say, Sangiunius been empowered by Chaos instead of Horus, he would most certainly be stronger then Chaos Horus.
Yes, but is there any fluff actually indicating he was inferior to them physically?
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
My hands. They, too, are golden.
2015/03/11 08:41:54
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Wyzilla wrote: Horus was a jack of all trades, but ace of none. His only real advantage over his brothers was his charisma- otherwise Sanguinius, Magnus, the Lion, Konrad Curze, and Angron were his physical superiors until his empowerment. And had say, Sangiunius been empowered by Chaos instead of Horus, he would most certainly be stronger then Chaos Horus.
Yes, but is there any fluff actually indicating he was inferior to them physically?
There's nothing credible that points to him being superior. Horus gets ganked by a Nurgle Chosen, Corax meanwhile walks off lascannon shots and Sanguinius utterly demolished Greater Daemons as a hobby.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2015/03/11 08:49:14
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Wyzilla wrote: There's nothing credible that points to him being superior. Horus gets ganked by a Nurgle Chosen, Corax meanwhile walks off lascannon shots and Sanguinius utterly demolished Greater Daemons as a hobby.
Yea but that Nurgle dude had an anathame. The way it was written seems to indicate that it would have had the same effect on any other Primarch. And the differences in the Primarch's strengths and survivability depends on the authors writing them, no? I thought there were already plenty of discussions on this subject, as when Guilliman was nearly offed by random Alpha Legion marines.
I still can't think of any fluff indicating that the Primarchs you listed were superior to him physically. Can you give me some examples?
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
My hands. They, too, are golden.
2015/03/11 08:55:12
Subject: Re:If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
person67 wrote: Logar maybe people are right about horus, but bearing in mind horus was the greatest in the crusade without him the emperor would have been killed by an ork warlord IIRC. Ererus never would have got near horus without Logar. Though I can see the argument for both horus and Robute gulliman
Why can you see an argument for Guilliman?
I voted Lorgar, I think him or Horus could work, but it seems sensible to cut it off at the source. Erebus mightttt have still had some sway but I don't think he'd have been in the position to had it not been for Lorgar.
mostly codex astartes hate. people tend to forget Gulliman pretty much single handedly kept the IoM together during the post heresy years.
Yeah I thought it might be the standard UM hate...
Eh it's fair eneugh some people think, especially with regards to setting belivability, the worst thing to happen to space marines where being divided into teeny tiny chapters.
Honestly I'm really hoping that the HH series doesn't end with the seige of Terra. the "Codex debate" I think could potentially be very intreasting reading. particularly if it turns out there was a bit more nuance into the whole thing then expected. (Like perhaps the other high lords making it very clear that 'there could be no more Legions Astartes" and the codex numbers where actually gulliman's way of preserving Space Marines as best he could )
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2015/03/11 09:17:39
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Wyzilla wrote: There's nothing credible that points to him being superior. Horus gets ganked by a Nurgle Chosen, Corax meanwhile walks off lascannon shots and Sanguinius utterly demolished Greater Daemons as a hobby.
Yea but that Nurgle dude had an anathame. The way it was written seems to indicate that it would have had the same effect on any other Primarch. And the differences in the Primarch's strengths and survivability depends on the authors writing them, no? I thought there were already plenty of discussions on this subject, as when Guilliman was nearly offed by random Alpha Legion marines.
I still can't think of any fluff indicating that the Primarchs you listed were superior to him physically. Can you give me some examples?
Only that most of his brothers think that he is the best man for the Job of being Warmaster and certain brothers commenting on his abilities, like Corax in Ravens Flight contemplating that only Horus or Sanguinius could beat Angron in a fight.
I vote for Horus as no one Primarch could have united the Traitors like he did. If Horus hadn't had fallen what other choice really would the Dark Gods have had? Magnus, Mortarion wouldn't have sided with him. Curze, I don't think anyone bar Horus really like him. Fulgrim the peacock? Horus was the chain that bound the rebellion together. Without him it would've been a disaster.
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2015/03/11 09:28:45
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Pilau Rice wrote: Only that most of his brothers think that he is the best man for the Job of being Warmaster and certain brothers commenting on his abilities, like Corax in Ravens Flight contemplating that only Horus or Sanguinius could beat Angron in a fight.
Yea, that's what I thought about his abilities. Is there really any fluff to indicate the contrary? The Horus Heresy wouldn't really make sense if he wasn't the greatest of them all.
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
My hands. They, too, are golden.
2015/03/11 09:54:02
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Considering that Horus is a wus compared to his Primarch brethren outside of tactical prowess? Yeah, the HH could have been a lot worse if somebody else fell, like Magnus or Vulkan becoming the champion of Chaos.
Nonsense. Personal ability is irrelevant when you have billions of troops fighting a galaxy-sized war. It's made explicitly clear that the reason Horus was chosen by Chaos was entirely due to the influence he held over the other legions and his talent for grand-strategy. No other Primarch was as universally loved as Horus, nor were any as charismatic. That's why the Emperor made him Warmaster, and that's why Chaos focused their efforts on him. People were willing to follow him, and he had the know-how to use them.
If Magnus or Vulkan had turned traitor, they would have done so alone. Very few (if any) of the other legions would have followed them into treachery, and neither of them had as much renown as a general as Horus.
- - - - -
RE the topic: Lorgar is the best choice, I think. People are asserting that Horus was the lynch-pin of the Heresy, which is true, but on the other hand erasing him at birth would also mean erasing all of the good he had done for mankind as well. Don't forget that prior to the Heresy, Horus was competing with Guilliman for most accomplished Primarch out of all the legions, with one of the highest records of compliances. He was also personally responsible for tutoring several of the other Primarchs, and had a variety of exploits such as saving the Emperor's life, etc.
By comparison, Lorgar was the catalyst for the Heresy, yet if he had never existed not much of value would have been lost. He was inefficient, had little accolades to his name, was despised by most of the other primarchs, and his record for compliances was so low that the Emperor had to step in and smack him around. Erasing Lorgar would have a lot of gains for the Imperium with little loss.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/03/11 10:02:21
2015/03/11 10:18:03
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
2015/03/11 10:27:51
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Amoras wrote: Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
If you killed Lorgar, I really don't think Erebus would've been in the position to corrupt anyone else. It was pretty much literally only Lorgar who liked Erebus. Had Lorgar not had him in such a high position I doubt he'd have had any kind of sway at all.
2015/03/11 10:28:33
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Amoras wrote: Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
2015/03/11 10:28:35
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
RE the topic: Lorgar is the best choice, I think. People are asserting that Horus was the lynch-pin of the Heresy, which is true, but on the other hand erasing him at birth would also mean erasing all of the good he had done for mankind as well. Don't forget that prior to the Heresy, Horus was competing with Guilliman for most accomplished Primarch out of all the legions, with one of the highest records of compliances. He was also personally responsible for tutoring several of the other Primarchs, and had a variety of exploits such as saving the Emperor's life, etc.
By comparison, Lorgar was the catalyst for the Heresy, yet if he had never existed not much of value would have been lost. He was inefficient, had little accolades to his name, was despised by most of the other primarchs, and his record for compliances was so low that the Emperor had to step in and smack him around. Erasing Lorgar would have a lot of gains for the Imperium with little loss.
I still believe Horus would be the better choice. True Lorgar started it all, but if Horus fell through the machinations of Lorgar, then whose to say that he wouldn't have fallen through someone else, perhaps later on when the Crusade was nearly complete, causing more destruction? The Emperor would still have gone back to Terra to work on the Webway Project. Horus would have still felt the same way when the Emperor left him. Certain Primarchs were already doomed to fall to Chaos. Perhaps Magnus would have been able to convince Horus the same way but through subtler means.
But I do agree with your point BlaxicanX, very well made. If Lorgar wouldn't have existed, neither would his Legion, therefore Kor Phaeron and Erebus, the true catalysts of the Heresy, would have remained mere people and left insignificant in every way, never mentioned, never to become the architects.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 10:32:07
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2015/03/11 10:36:12
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Amoras wrote: Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe. But They wouldn't have had any sway if not for Lorgar.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 10:37:29
2015/03/11 10:37:42
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Amoras wrote: Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe.
I think they followed Chaos before Lorgar did yes, but only after the Emporer's shaming. Correct me if I have this fluff wrong.
2015/03/11 10:38:03
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe. But They wouldn't have had any sway if not for Lorgar.
Correctamundo
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 10:38:14
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2015/03/11 10:39:57
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Amoras wrote: Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe.
I think they followed Chaos before Lorgar did yes, but only after the Emporer's shaming. Correct me if I have this fluff wrong.
No I mean, from before Lorgar landed on Colchis. Or at least before the Emperor got to Colchis. All the worlds that the Word Bearers brought into compliance, Erebus and Kor Phaeron would leave little cults of Chaos smouldering away, ready for when they managed to turn Lorgar.
2015/03/11 11:23:16
Subject: Re:If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
What we need to remember with this kind of hypothetical question is the nature of causality and the flow of time and events. A single event does not fix an entire timeline, and in modern viewpoints of physics would quite likely spawn a secondary timeline alongside the main one, with the key forking point being when you appear in the past.
So, it could entirely transpire that regardless of which Primarch you killed in the past, the timeline you have created could still follow a similar or entirely worse path through causality.
Example One: Slay Lorgar!
Many of you have voted to kill Lorgar, as without him then Horus could not be tempted over to Chaos. Causally this might not be correct.
If Lorgar had been slain at youth, then he never would have descended upon Colchis. He never would have founded a belief in a single God on that planet and lead to its Holy Wars, and it is quite likely the outcome may have formed differently. Erebus and Kor Phaeron may have still existed in this world as regular humans alongside other would-have-been Word Bearers, and these would maintain their ancient beliefs in a Godly Pantheon (the Chaos Gods for those unaware)
It’s quite likely the Crusade would still have happened upon Colchis, and the population would be pacified and integrated into the Imperium. The youth of Colchis would likely be swallowed into a different Legion, taking some dark beliefs with them. It’s entirely possible for Erebus or some other dark-hearted Astartes to be created and find their way to the ears of their Brothers or Primarch. By removing the perceived evil of the Word Bearers, you potentially create a new monster from another Legion.
The Imperial Heralds would also still be in existence, and would never find their Primarch. They would remain in all aspects a loyal and normal functioning legion. They could potentially fill a niche they did not in the normal timeline, which could lead to conflict with existing legions. I could easily imagine the Heralds attempting to make up for their lack of a Primarch with zeal and dedication to the cause, which in turn would earn the ire of certain brother legions.
Another likely scenario would be that without a Primarch, the Emperor may see fit to merge the Heralds with another Legion, possibly the Ultramarines. Any faults with the original Heralds in terms of spirit or mind would be integrated into another Legion, spreading like a tumour amongst its new hosts.
Plus, we are assuming that the Chaos Gods would simply abandon their designs if Lorgar was gone. Remember, all the Primarchs were flawed in various aspects, and the Gods are infinitely devious. A potential Lorgar could be found in any one of his remaining brothers. Integral relationships that Lorgar developed with his Father and Brothers would never happen, and you’d have an entirely different dynamic between them.
Example Two: Slay Horus!
Another popular choice appears to be the slaying of the Arch-Traitor himself, Horus Lupercal. Again, causality is an unkind mistress and several things could occur upon this new timeline.
Horus’ Legion would remain the Luna Wolves, and Horus would never be crowned Warmaster. At the Triumph of Ullanor (if it even happened on this timeline, Horus was a massively integral part of the campaign) the Emperor would likely have chosen another son to be Warmaster. Horus himself always stated that Sanguinius should have been Warmaster and the Emperor could likely name the Lord of the Blood Angels as the Warmaster.
So the pressures and stress of the title would belong to another brother, opening the path again for Chaos to seep through. Although brilliant, Sanguinius may have lacked in Horus’ abilities and the unified Crusade may have suffered, bringing a whole new schism to bear. Plus, having the pre-eminent Legion of the Crusade as the Blood Angels opens a whole new can of worms in terms of The Flaw and their dark character. A new Arc-Traitor could believable be found in Sanguinius, or any one of his Brothers.
It’s an interesting question, and everything here is just speculation as time-travel and causality are maddeningly complex to have one simple “I change this and this happens”
Cool thread though!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/11 11:24:41
The Imperial Heralds would also still be in existence, and would never find their Primarch. They would remain in all aspects a loyal and normal functioning legion. They could potentially fill a niche they did not in the normal timeline, which could lead to conflict with existing legions. I could easily imagine the Heralds attempting to make up for their lack of a Primarch with zeal and dedication to the cause, which in turn would earn the ire of certain brother legions.
I don't know, perhaps without a Primarch to lead them the Emperor does not create the Imperial Heralds at all. Perhaps, depending on when the Primarch is slain, the Emperor has not gathered enough information to create the Legion. Or perhaps slaying the Primarch doesn't matter as the Emperor has enough information to just grow it anew.
My brain hurts
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/11 11:45:28
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2015/03/11 12:00:51
Subject: Re:If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Lorgar due to my dislike for (politely worded) nut jobs with a strong zeal of religion
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2015/03/11 12:02:29
Subject: Re:If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
What we need to remember with this kind of hypothetical question is the nature of causality and the flow of time and events. A single event does not fix an entire timeline, and in modern viewpoints of physics would quite likely spawn a secondary timeline alongside the main one, with the key forking point being when you appear in the past.
So, it could entirely transpire that regardless of which Primarch you killed in the past, the timeline you have created could still follow a similar or entirely worse path through causality.
Example One: Slay Lorgar!
Many of you have voted to kill Lorgar, as without him then Horus could not be tempted over to Chaos. Causally this might not be correct.
If Lorgar had been slain at youth, then he never would have descended upon Colchis. He never would have founded a belief in a single God on that planet and lead to its Holy Wars, and it is quite likely the outcome may have formed differently. Erebus and Kor Phaeron may have still existed in this world as regular humans alongside other would-have-been Word Bearers, and these would maintain their ancient beliefs in a Godly Pantheon (the Chaos Gods for those unaware)
It’s quite likely the Crusade would still have happened upon Colchis, and the population would be pacified and integrated into the Imperium. The youth of Colchis would likely be swallowed into a different Legion, taking some dark beliefs with them. It’s entirely possible for Erebus or some other dark-hearted Astartes to be created and find their way to the ears of their Brothers or Primarch. By removing the perceived evil of the Word Bearers, you potentially create a new monster from another Legion.
The Imperial Heralds would also still be in existence, and would never find their Primarch. They would remain in all aspects a loyal and normal functioning legion. They could potentially fill a niche they did not in the normal timeline, which could lead to conflict with existing legions. I could easily imagine the Heralds attempting to make up for their lack of a Primarch with zeal and dedication to the cause, which in turn would earn the ire of certain brother legions.
Another likely scenario would be that without a Primarch, the Emperor may see fit to merge the Heralds with another Legion, possibly the Ultramarines. Any faults with the original Heralds in terms of spirit or mind would be integrated into another Legion, spreading like a tumour amongst its new hosts.
Plus, we are assuming that the Chaos Gods would simply abandon their designs if Lorgar was gone. Remember, all the Primarchs were flawed in various aspects, and the Gods are infinitely devious. A potential Lorgar could be found in any one of his remaining brothers. Integral relationships that Lorgar developed with his Father and Brothers would never happen, and you’d have an entirely different dynamic between them.
Example Two: Slay Horus!
Another popular choice appears to be the slaying of the Arch-Traitor himself, Horus Lupercal. Again, causality is an unkind mistress and several things could occur upon this new timeline.
Horus’ Legion would remain the Luna Wolves, and Horus would never be crowned Warmaster. At the Triumph of Ullanor (if it even happened on this timeline, Horus was a massively integral part of the campaign) the Emperor would likely have chosen another son to be Warmaster. Horus himself always stated that Sanguinius should have been Warmaster and the Emperor could likely name the Lord of the Blood Angels as the Warmaster.
So the pressures and stress of the title would belong to another brother, opening the path again for Chaos to seep through. Although brilliant, Sanguinius may have lacked in Horus’ abilities and the unified Crusade may have suffered, bringing a whole new schism to bear. Plus, having the pre-eminent Legion of the Crusade as the Blood Angels opens a whole new can of worms in terms of The Flaw and their dark character. A new Arc-Traitor could believable be found in Sanguinius, or any one of his Brothers.
It’s an interesting question, and everything here is just speculation as time-travel and causality are maddeningly complex to have one simple “I change this and this happens”
Cool thread though!
Well I guess the Imperium was grimdark enough for the Emperor to "abort" a teenage primarch "fetus" (2-11, amirite?), but assuming the topic asks what if a Primarch is aborted in its infancy, it's highly unlikely their gene-material would have been used for a legion. This simply means whoever got aborted will not have a Legion corresponding to his number. So aborting Lorgar means no Word Bearers, and Erebus would never have gotten out of that piece of over-zealous rock, lodges would be far rarer amongst the Legions and far less uniform; had Horus been aborted, there would have never been a Lunar Wolves, and all the assorted drama associated with it would have been gone.
On the odd chance that the Primarchs are "aborted" after they were scattered, then no one else would have known of the aborted primarch, and all things associated to his name would have gone unrecorded. Say, if Lorgar was killed by the Colchisians, when the Emperor's exploration fleets arrived above Colchis, the tainted rock would still have been in its old polytheistic ways and would have likely gotten into open conflict with the Imperium, and consequentially destroyed, Erebus would have never make a Legionnaire and Horus would not have been turned to Chaos by him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/11 12:30:16
2015/03/11 12:56:21
Subject: Re:If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.
Huh I see that Dark Lord Seanron is back, when did this happen?
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
2015/03/11 13:04:36
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
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PM me for an INSANE (100K+ points) if you desire.
2015/03/11 13:06:17
Subject: Re:If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Krellnus wrote: I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.
But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.
Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.
I chose none, I would just sit around in their until the @sshole thousand sons came along to throw the babies into the warp and kill them instead. That way each of the primarchs would have grown up around their father the emperor and would never have been exposed to the follies of their parent worlds that changed them, for the most part, in bad ways.
So how about an imperium where all 20 sons did what the emperor intended for them to do? how crazy would that have been? Chaos loses forever.
I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all
Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders
2015/03/11 13:19:59
Subject: If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Ghazkuul wrote: I chose none, I would just sit around in their until the @sshole thousand sons came along to throw the babies into the warp and kill them instead. That way each of the primarchs would have grown up around their father the emperor and would never have been exposed to the follies of their parent worlds that changed them, for the most part, in bad ways.
So how about an imperium where all 20 sons did what the emperor intended for them to do? how crazy would that have been? Chaos loses forever.
I'm confused, what do the Thousand Sons have to do with any of this?
2015/03/11 13:23:06
Subject: Re:If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Krellnus wrote: I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.
But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.
Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.
RAMIFICATIONS!!!!!!
But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
2015/03/11 13:27:08
Subject: Re:If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Krellnus wrote: I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.
But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.
Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.
RAMIFICATIONS!!!!!!
But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?
Depends on whether you subscribe to the whole 'the wolves are the executioners' thing (I'm of the opinion that if they were, that's just how they saw themselves/it was self appointed) but I could see it being as simple as the Wolves will do absolutely anything the Emperor ordered, and wouldn't hesitate to destroy another legion If they were ordered to.
2015/03/11 13:28:01
Subject: Re:If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?
Nothing to my knowledge but its all what ifs isn't it. The Emperor must have had some hand in the matter and made the choice to select Russ for the task.
Perhaps it was his loyalty to the Emperor above all else. Lion is a bit of a shifty character in some regards and very secretive, perhaps the Emperor couldn't trust him to carry out the task, Guilliman doesn't seem the type, Horus is there to unite the Primarchs and not to kill them.
