Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Zewrath wrote:
Ignoring the point that there's a squadron mate in front on him and my point about creatures/mechanics that instantly closes the gap. *golfclaps*

His tank buddy shouldn't be more than one or two inches in front of him to absorb hits due to wound allocation rules, so again that's likely a ~22'' move. You've yet to provide an example of this mystical unit that can "instantly close the gap". DK's can't charge after shunting.

Yawn! What kind of pathetic grasping straw man bs is this?

You brought up the Dreadknights, not me. Do you know what a strawman is?

So divine me, oh great wiseman, then what is his purpose?

Pask's purpose is to kill hordes, MEQ, TEQ, vehicles and monstrous creatures while having the durability to require concentrated fire to take down. He does more damage to vehicles at every AV level then any other vehicle in the codex point for point and is only bested by melta-gun vets (who are less durable and need to be even closer to do any damage). He does more damage to MC's then any other unit in the codex, point for point (and will on average kill a Dreadknight a turn). He decimates hordes and will cripple TEQ in a single volley. And because of his threat-level he can't be ignored, which forces your opponent to deal with him. He's a very competent swiss army knife in a codex where the vast majority of units are highly specialized (and, these days, aren't even particularly good at that specific role). That Pask can't wipe out your opponent's entire heavy support slot by himself in a turn or magically fix all the short-comings of the Guard codex doesn't really change that.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Pask and his tank buddy are the best choice in the book, no doubt about it, but they can't carry the entire book because they're inherently flawed with their exorbitant price and tendency to make games either go really well or really poorly with their early death or complete failure to accomplish anything.

That's pretty much the gist of it. Pask suffers from a lot of the problems that are inherent to all of the Russes (and vehicles in general), which means he certainly has weaknesses. At the end of the day he's still pretty much the best unit in the 'dex though.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
Ignoring the point that there's a squadron mate in front on him and my point about creatures/mechanics that instantly closes the gap. *golfclaps*

His tank buddy shouldn't be more than one or two inches in front of him to absorb hits due to wound allocation rules, so again that's likely a ~22'' move. You've yet to provide an example of this mystical unit that can "instantly close the gap". DK's can't charge after shunting.

Read post above, regarding the realistic range of Paskisher. "Within 24"" range is not meant as a literal term in the given context but as a rule of thumb for most IG players who observe incoming enemy units towards their tanks. You're starting an argument based on, what you think is, a statement meant literally. When the actual feth did I claim that DK's could charge after shunt? They charge as soon as the are able, because there is not enough firepower to kill 3 separate DK's after they shunted and used their torrent weapons (how is this hard to figure out?).
DK's instantly closes the gap, FMC can close the gap, hell with overcharge the Riptide could close the gap if it wanted to ditto with the WK. Seriously you're asking for examples that are commonplace in the game?

You brought up the Dreadknights, not me. Do you know what a strawman is?

Because it's an example to support my argument, apparently you don't know the word.

Pask's purpose is to kill hordes, MEQ, TEQ, vehicles and monstrous creatures while having the durability to require concentrated fire to take down. He does more damage to vehicles at every AV level then any other vehicle in the codex point for point and is only bested by melta-gun vets (who are less durable and need to be even closer to do any damage). He does more damage to MC's then any other unit in the codex, point for point (and will on average kill a Dreadknight a turn). He decimates hordes and will cripple TEQ in a single volley. And because of his threat-level he can't be ignored, which forces your opponent to deal with him. He's a very competent swiss army knife in a codex where the vast majority of units are highly specialized (and, these days, aren't even particularly good at that specific role). That Pask can't wipe out your opponent's entire heavy support slot by himself in a turn or magically fix all the short-comings of the Guard codex doesn't really change that.

Yawn, horde killing is useless as explained. What MC's? The only monster I shoot are DK's and carnifexes. The rest are commandeered by people who don't have gaks for brains and keeps them well out of reach from Paskisher, which is a pathetically easy thing to accomplish. I could throw you a bone and say that he's good against AV but since the book is full of AT choices, it's not really that impressive and certainly not something that could carry the game.

just because the IG has other hoard killing options doesn't mean the LR punisher (Pask exists to enhance a single LR of any type. rememebr you can put him on other LR varients) is crap and useless. having multiple tools in your toolbox isn't a bad thing.

Read post above, regarding the realistic range of Paskisher. "Within 24"" range is not meant as a literal term in the given context but as a rule of thumb for most IG players who observe incoming enemy units towards their tanks. You're starting an argument based on, what you think is, a statement meant literally. When the actual feth did I claim that DK's could charge after shunt? They charge as soon as the are able, because there is not enough firepower to kill 3 separate DK's after they shunted and used their torrent weapons (how is this hard to figure out?).
DK's instantly closes the gap, FMC can close the gap, hell with overcharge the Riptide could close the gap if it wanted to ditto with the WK. Seriously you're asking for examples that are commonplace in the game?

Your complaint was that the range of the Punisher made it too susceptible to assaults. Every unit you've referenced so far would need multiple turns to get into assault with it.

Because it's an example to support my argument, apparently you don't know the word.

Pointing out that your cited example fails to support your argument (Paskisher is bad because he can't kill three Dreadknights before they kill him in assault) isn't a strawman.

Yawn, horde killing is useless as explained. What MC's? The only monster I shoot are DK's and carnifexes.

Paskisher shreds them both. And him killing hordes (and MEQ, and TEQ, and vehicles, and MC's) isn't a useless point because your assertion was that, and I quote: "few things actually die from his barrage of bullets, save for some MC's", which is objectively false.

I could throw you a bone and say that he's good against AV but since the book is full of AT choices, it's not really that impressive and certainly not something that could carry the game.

He does more damage against vehicles then any other unit in the codex, point for point. He isn't going to "carry the game", but I never asserted that he would, and the idea that a unit has to single-handily carry your list in order to be good is stupid.

So basically, your complaint is that he doesn't accomplish what you want him to accomplish, which categorically is not the same thing as being sub-par. Paskisher does good damage to just about every unit type in the game, but you don't care. Which is fine, but is hardly an issue with Paskisher itself.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Read post above, regarding the realistic range of Paskisher. "Within 24"" range is not meant as a literal term in the given context but as a rule of thumb for most IG players who observe incoming enemy units towards their tanks. You're starting an argument based on, what you think is, a statement meant literally. When the actual feth did I claim that DK's could charge after shunt? They charge as soon as the are able, because there is not enough firepower to kill 3 separate DK's after they shunted and used their torrent weapons (how is this hard to figure out?).
DK's instantly closes the gap, FMC can close the gap, hell with overcharge the Riptide could close the gap if it wanted to ditto with the WK. Seriously you're asking for examples that are commonplace in the game?

Your complaint was that the range of the Punisher made it too susceptible to assaults. Every unit you've referenced so far would need multiple turns to get into assault with it.

Except that all units need multiple turns to get into assault, given the disallowance of Turn 1 assaults. Requiring a unit to close to that short of a distance does make it susceptible to a Turn 2 assault of the particularly fast assault units in the game.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The powerhouse builds in this day and age seem to be Krieger.

What.

I've only heard complaints about the sorry state of this bloody army.

Krieg can artillery spam quite aggressively, so if you're going that route they make an effective gunline, but given the prohibitive cost of their basic infantry, no veterans, no psykers, fliers or buff support that's kind of the only thing they're genuinely good at.

Between their command squad's toys and an Inquisition detachment they can do just fine at sitting back and carpet-bombing the table.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm sorry but I am with the GW legal department and I demand everyone in this thread use the proper copyrighted nomenclature for this army: Astroboy Militeruriopyrightgamesworkshopltd and militurdium testosteroni.

Turn the codex over, it says "more commonly known as the Imperial guard"

It's a high gothic name, did you gak the bed with adeptus astartes too?

 Robisagg wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm sorry but I am with the GW legal department and I demand everyone in this thread use the proper copyrighted nomenclature for this army: Astroboy Militeruriopyrightgamesworkshopltd and militurdium testosteroni.

Turn the codex over, it says "more commonly known as the Imperial guard"

It's a high gothic name, did you gak the bed with adeptus astartes too?

You missed the point.

Adeptus Astartes has been the "official" in-universe name for Space Marines for.. -ages-. Yet their codex is still "Codex: Space Marines"

Imperial Guard were never "Astra Militarum" until the codex was released. That name never showed up. Ever. Until this codex. And hilariously enough, it's barely present in the codex outside of the title.

Well, if the trend continues a la blood angels (Codex: Adeptus Astartes Blood Angels), I'd venture a guess that it'll be C:AA next time around.

Whiskey144 wrote:
Except that all units need multiple turns to get into assault, given the disallowance of Turn 1 assaults. Requiring a unit to close to that short of a distance does make it susceptible to a Turn 2 assault of the particularly fast assault units in the game.

What units are you aware of that can close a 24'' gap and then assault in the same turn?

There are quite a few units that can travel across the board very quickly turn 1 and be in position turn 2, but that has nothing to do with Punisher's 24'' range. When units like seekers have an average move of ~21'' a turn, it doesn't matter whether your weapon range is 24'' or 48'', they're probably going to be in assault range in a couple of turns regardless because the board itself is only so big.

I've found that 7th edition is a game that favours mobility over all else. Being fast, shooty, then tough, then choppy is the order of the day.

Guard suffer from an "insidious" change. High-end Mobility has increased by a factor of 2.5 . A fast skimmer used to move 24", and that was it. That wass your speed limit. Now, a Flyer can move 60" in one turn, if they're so inclined. Other models can easily move 36". Eldar / Dark Eldar Jetbikes can move 48" in a turn.

And our guns remain the same. No longer range, no increased power... the other not-so-subtle change in an increase in Ignores Cover weaponry, and we rely pretty heavily upon cover saves to increase our survivability.

So our lower mobility on say, Infantry or a Leman Russ, used to be a factor of about 25% of the high-end speed. Now it's 10% of the high-end speed. Sitting and shooting used to give you several turns before your enemies were upon you. Now you don't have that luxury. We can't pick targets, even with decent LOS, because our opposition is so fast they don't need to ever expose themselves.

Weapons have grown more powerful. I mean, "D" weapons that just annihilate things without any real chance to defend and retaliate. The game has become almost strike and counter-strike, at the highest levels. Either you wipe something out in one turn, or you get wiped out in a turn. There's no back and forth, it's just units disappearing when they are in range. Being tough doesn't matter, a Land Raider is killed just as easily as a Rhino. D Weapons, Mega-Haywire, Multi-Meltaguns in units... not that they're that great anymore... but the point is you used to get something out of AV 14.

Torrent weapons have become the utter bane of our infantry. The weak side armour of Chimerae allows those fast moving units to shred the meagre defences that our troops have.

Without hard mobility counters, our guns haven't kept up with opposing armies' ability to glass cannon us to a degree that the glass doesn't matter. We're wiped out before a reprisal can be made. And if that reprisal doesn't wipe a target in one turn? They're on the other side of the board, out of LOS. :(

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:
Except that all units need multiple turns to get into assault, given the disallowance of Turn 1 assaults. Requiring a unit to close to that short of a distance does make it susceptible to a Turn 2 assault of the particularly fast assault units in the game.

What units are you aware of that can close a 24'' gap and then assault in the same turn?

There are quite a few units that can travel across the board very quickly turn 1 and be in position turn 2, but that has nothing to do with Punisher's 24'' range. When units like seekers have an average move of ~21'' a turn, it doesn't matter whether your weapon range is 24'' or 48'', they're probably going to be in assault range in a couple of turns regardless because the board itself is only so big.

Rumor is that the Skitarii will get a formation for the Sicarian infantry units that allows them to make a Run move and then charge; given that all of them have Dunestrider- getting +3" on all moves, it's not hard to imagine that the formation would allow for Ruststalkers to cross 24" and then get into combat pretty easily.

Consider: 9" Movement Phase, D6+3" Run move, 2D6+3" assault move; being semi-conservative, say a 9" Movement+6" Run+9" Charge and you've just covered 24" in one turn.

That sounds pretty spooky.

I'm very interested in the Skitarii. Pretty much everything we've heard about them makes them sound like meta-smashers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greatbigtree wrote:
I've found that 7th edition is a game that favours mobility over all else. Being fast, shooty, then tough, then choppy is the order of the day.

Guard suffer from an "insidious" change. High-end Mobility has increased by a factor of 2.5 . A fast skimmer used to move 24", and that was it. That wass your speed limit. Now, a Flyer can move 60" in one turn, if they're so inclined. Other models can easily move 36". Eldar / Dark Eldar Jetbikes can move 48" in a turn.

And our guns remain the same. No longer range, no increased power... the other not-so-subtle change in an increase in Ignores Cover weaponry, and we rely pretty heavily upon cover saves to increase our survivability.

So our lower mobility on say, Infantry or a Leman Russ, used to be a factor of about 25% of the high-end speed. Now it's 10% of the high-end speed. Sitting and shooting used to give you several turns before your enemies were upon you. Now you don't have that luxury. We can't pick targets, even with decent LOS, because our opposition is so fast they don't need to ever expose themselves.

Weapons have grown more powerful. I mean, "D" weapons that just annihilate things without any real chance to defend and retaliate. The game has become almost strike and counter-strike, at the highest levels. Either you wipe something out in one turn, or you get wiped out in a turn. There's no back and forth, it's just units disappearing when they are in range. Being tough doesn't matter, a Land Raider is killed just as easily as a Rhino. D Weapons, Mega-Haywire, Multi-Meltaguns in units... not that they're that great anymore... but the point is you used to get something out of AV 14.

Torrent weapons have become the utter bane of our infantry. The weak side armour of Chimerae allows those fast moving units to shred the meagre defences that our troops have.

Without hard mobility counters, our guns haven't kept up with opposing armies' ability to glass cannon us to a degree that the glass doesn't matter. We're wiped out before a reprisal can be made. And if that reprisal doesn't wipe a target in one turn? They're on the other side of the board, out of LOS. :(

Yeah. I think the Guard are comparable to Space Marines in that they created with mechanics for a different edition, and haven't received the type of overhaul needed to match the current state of the game. Like, there are units in the marine codices that have had the same stat-line for a decade, with just reduced cost. Points reductions are nice, but are a bandage over the problem rather then actually addressing it.

Guard have a lot of units that don't really have a role anymore and need to be re-evaluated by the design team. Stuff like the sentinels, Hellhound varients, Russes etc.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What ever bla bla stuff

Totally don't care. You're pathetically trying to come across with a point based on the assumption that Paskisher skirts on exactly 24" and is thus golden, because due to magic and science combined, nothing can assault him afterwards.
Here's what fast assault units do: use turn 1 to shunt or deploy on edge of their deployment and use full movement + run. Turn 2 (3 if you're really holding him back), declare assault. This isn't science, bud.
Now, scram and take comfort in how you "totally proved a point because NOTHING can assault on 24"" with bad wannabe 4chan lingo. Let the adults handle the fact that assault is a frustratingly easy way to obliterate Paskisher&friends.
Can't be arsed to argue with people who translate the phrase "within 24"" to "exactly 24" away", amirite, lulz, -insert bad taste 4chan lingo here-.

 Zewrath wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What ever bla bla stuff

Totally don't care.

And yet here you are ranting about it. If you're not going to continue the discussion then take your tears elsewhere.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What ever bla bla stuff

Totally don't care.

And yet here you are ranting about it. If you're not going to continue the discussion then take your tears elsewhere.

There's no discussion, I just stated that. Read. Thanks.

'kay.

What bugs me, is how all the other codices have special rules for almost every single weapon. Every unit seems to be loaded with special rules, every gun and every thing else. My Harlequins have a ton of rules for example, as does the necrons. Formations only give them more.

Then the lasgun (and the guard) have next to nothing except orders and maybe a buff here and there from commissars or priests.

While this is a flaw with the game, its a bit annoying when the enemy have a host of useful rules on already better items that further increase the gap of power.

Im happy that we have orders for example, it makes Guard Commanders the only commanders who are better prized for their command than their killing ability, but its nothing compared to near fearless, tough warriors with auto-glancing weapons and an invulnerable save for example.

I have never been happy with our latest book. Both the fluff and the rules are by far the most bland I have ever got and the rules have always felt meh.

 Swastakowey wrote:
What bugs me, is how all the other codices have special rules for almost every single weapon. Every unit seems to be loaded with special rules, every gun and every thing else. My Harlequins have a ton of rules for example, as does the necrons. Formations only give them more.

Then the lasgun (and the guard) have next to nothing except orders and maybe a buff here and there from commissars or priests.

While this is a flaw with the game, its a bit annoying when the enemy have a host of useful rules on already better items that further increase the gap of power.

Im happy that we have orders for example, it makes Guard Commanders the only commanders who are better prized for their command than their killing ability, but its nothing compared to near fearless, tough warriors with auto-glancing weapons and an invulnerable save for example.

I have never been happy with our latest book. Both the fluff and the rules are by far the most bland I have ever got and the rules have always felt meh.

That's kind of the point of the Guard though. They're not the elite soldiers, they're poor bastards who got drafted. The bloody dog-faced infantry that get sent into the meat-grinder just to run the enemy ammo dry, and the mass-produced vehicles which depend more on weight of numbers than superior equipment / pilots to win. I actually really like how guard operate with their orders and such, I don't really think they'd need the whole "EVERYONE GETS ALL THE SPECIAL RULES!" treatment if the codex was designed for this day-and-age.

I don't mind the idea of troops and their generic small-arms being generic- orks are very similar in that way- I do think that the Guard should have more flavor on an army-wide level though, which is why removing the special characters like Al'Raheim and Chenkov sucked so much.

Space Marines have a similar issue- regular marines are just incredibly dull mechanically in how they function on the table-top- but they kind of get around it by having things like chapter tactics.

Even if the Guardsmen just remained a simple guardsmen, at least being able to change the way the army plays beyond just the generic horde OR mech dynamic would be welcome.

I like it too, but on the table it doesnt turn out too well. I mean, if necrons are meant to be elite, why are there 50+ models on the field all with crazy rules, yet I have almost 100 with nearly nothing. I don't want hundreds of models, but we are being left behind rules wise with little compensation. Look at the new Skittarii codex. EVERY GUN, EVERY MODEL and also formations has special rules.

How can we compete? Numbers can work yes, but even then I havent had too much luck with numbers.

If it were my way ALL the factions would have less special rules. But as it is, we are being left behind in the rules race.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't mind the idea of troops and their generic small-arms being generic- orks are very similar in that way- I do think that the Guard should have more flavor on an army-wide level though, which is why removing the special characters like Al'Raheim and Chenkov sucked so much.

Space Marines have a similar issue- regular marines are just incredibly dull mechanically in how they function on the table-top- but they kind of get around it by having things like chapter tactics.

Even if the Guardsmen just remained a simple guardsmen, at least being able to change the way the army plays beyond just the generic horde OR mech dynamic would be welcome.

Oh, I very much agree with you. The guard having some army wide tactics / options / what have you (something like chapter tactics, or maybe something akin to making formations of their own?) would most certainly help guard and give them more flavor. I'm just saying that special rule bloat is something I'm glad IG don't have, as it would pretty much undermine what they're supposed to be otherwise.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I like it too, but on the table it doesnt turn out too well. I mean, if necrons are meant to be elite, why are there 50+ models on the field all with crazy rules, yet I have almost 100 with nearly nothing. e.

Well... To be fair, you can get two veterans for 1 point less than 1 necron warrior. And you can almost get three regular guard for the price of 1 warrior! Wow! Such value!

That said, necrons are bat-gak crazy with the new codex. Decurian is stupidity unchained, and guard sadly suffer from a somewhat older design view.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't mind the idea of troops and their generic small-arms being generic- orks are very similar in that way- I do think that the Guard should have more flavor on an army-wide level though, which is why removing the special characters like Al'Raheim and Chenkov sucked so much.

Space Marines have a similar issue- regular marines are just incredibly dull mechanically in how they function on the table-top- but they kind of get around it by having things like chapter tactics.

Even if the Guardsmen just remained a simple guardsmen, at least being able to change the way the army plays beyond just the generic horde OR mech dynamic would be welcome.

Oh, I very much agree with you. The guard having some army wide tactics / options / what have you (something like chapter tactics, or maybe something akin to making formations of their own?) would most certainly help guard and give them more flavor. I'm just saying that special rule bloat is something I'm glad IG don't have, as it would pretty much undermine what they're supposed to be otherwise.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I like it too, but on the table it doesnt turn out too well. I mean, if necrons are meant to be elite, why are there 50+ models on the field all with crazy rules, yet I have almost 100 with nearly nothing. e.

Well... To be fair, you can get two veterans for 1 point less than 1 necron warrior. And you can almost get three regular guard for the price of 1 warrior! Wow! Such value!

That said, necrons are bat-gak crazy with the new codex. Decurian is stupidity unchained, and guard sadly suffer from a somewhat older design view.

And two veterans will die to one warrior without fail, as will three guardsmen.

Guard has cheap infantry, but the power level of the game means that they're basically useless in combat scenarios outside of dumb luck. Orks and Tyranids, the other "hordy" armies (though Necrons now do it best....) rely on buffing their fodder or having them replaceable to work; Painboyz, Tervigons, the formation which allows endless horma/termagants. Just having bodies doesn't get you anywhere when Knights, Wraithknights, Missilecides, Farsight Bomb, Decurion, Wave Serpents and so on exist, you need bodies with some other abilities. Having rules for specific Guard regiments to give infantry a chance would be nice; Valhallans with "Send in the next wave!," Vostroyans with army-wide carapace and mastercrafted weapons, but more expensive, Tallarans with scout/move through cover (technically available through Forgeworld, Taros 2.0), Cadians with extra orders and re-roll 1s to hit with lasguns, Krieg not being 20 points more per squad, and 50 points more per PCS/CCS for WS4 and not taking 25% tests, etc.

Even if the codex was still gak, having some actual thematic options and respect for the fluff would make me happy. Basically how it was in 4th; Guard only had one really good list, but you could build any kind of Guard army imagineable. Might be rather tough to eek out a win, but at the end of the day it was the Guard force you wanted to run with all sorts of different approaches to lists.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The powerhouse builds in this day and age seem to be Krieger.

What.

I've only heard complaints about the sorry state of this bloody army.

Krieg can artillery spam quite aggressively, so if you're going that route they make an effective gunline, but given the prohibitive cost of their basic infantry, no veterans, no psykers, fliers or buff support that's kind of the only thing they're genuinely good at.

The Siege Regiment army list is a one tricky pony. The list would fare poorly against twin shunting Dreadknights with incinerators, for example.

 God In Action wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The powerhouse builds in this day and age seem to be Krieger.

What.

I've only heard complaints about the sorry state of this bloody army.

Krieg can artillery spam quite aggressively, so if you're going that route they make an effective gunline, but given the prohibitive cost of their basic infantry, no veterans, no psykers, fliers or buff support that's kind of the only thing they're genuinely good at.

The Siege Regiment army list is a one tricky pony. The list would fare poorly against twin shunting Dreadknights with incinerators, for example.

Aye, they have something they can do reasonably well, but that thing isn't especially competitive. Drop pods, Dreadknights, MC spam in general, fliers, lots of things are very hard counters to an artillery list. That's why in the real world artillery is kilometers behind the frontline....

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Between their command squad's toys and an Inquisition detachment they can do just fine at sitting back and carpet-bombing the table.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

Krieg can artillery spam quite aggressively, so if you're going that route they make an effective gunline, but given the prohibitive cost of their basic infantry, no veterans, no psykers, fliers or buff support that's kind of the only thing they're genuinely good at.

The thing is... so can Astra Militarum. Heavy Artillery Batteries are not exclusive to Krieg, nor are Field Artillery. The sole advantage is that the Siege Regiment can take the latter as elites. Their command squads (in the Siege Regiment) has access to almost exactly the same toys as a normal CCS, except that it has worse orders and costs 40 points more and comes with a banner. Their infantry is at least 10 points overpriced, considering that Veterans are cheaper, they have worse options for allies, they have one semi-useful build in Death Rider Detachment, as they otherwise have to take infantry squads.

I can go on, but the thing is that other armies can go the same build better and cheaper. Normal AM can comfortably play the same style with few of the drawbacks, and Renegades and Heretics are arguably superior in most departments. RoH can even take Artillery as troops if they want to!

 Aenarian wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Between their command squad's toys and an Inquisition detachment they can do just fine at sitting back and carpet-bombing the table.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

Krieg can artillery spam quite aggressively, so if you're going that route they make an effective gunline, but given the prohibitive cost of their basic infantry, no veterans, no psykers, fliers or buff support that's kind of the only thing they're genuinely good at.

The thing is... so can Astra Militarum. Heavy Artillery Batteries are not exclusive to Krieg, nor are Field Artillery. The sole advantage is that the Siege Regiment can take the latter as elites. Their command squads (in the Siege Regiment) has access to almost exactly the same toys as a normal CCS, except that it has worse orders and costs 40 points more and comes with a banner. Their infantry is at least 10 points overpriced, considering that Veterans are cheaper, they have worse options for allies, they have one semi-useful build in Death Rider Detachment, as they otherwise have to take infantry squads.

I can go on, but the thing is that other armies can go the same build better and cheaper. Normal AM can comfortably play the same style with few of the drawbacks, and Renegades and Heretics are arguably superior in most departments. RoH can even take Artillery as troops if they want to!

Well that's kind of the whole point of this thread, isn't it? The "theme" of the Guard and its variants is that they have a few builds they can do alright, but someone else can do better.

On the artillery front, Orks can pie plate almost as much as Guard and be better in every other category, Thunderfire cannons remain very good for Marines, the only thing Guard has is volume of artillery, but everything else they bring is objectively inferior to what other armies can do.

The artillery units (I mean Artillery type unit, not the artillery tanks) do give the Krieg a huge advantage over other artillery themed lists because of how durable an artillery unit is. I cannot remember ever losing an artillery unit to shooting. This does mean that compared to Orks and all others (apart from Renegade and Heretics), at least one variant of Imperial Guard does have an advantage.

The trick is to deploy artillery on the extreme flanks. If need be, put about 2/3rds on the best defended flank and 1/3rd on the least defended flank (as the sacrificial flank). Hug cover, and place all but one crewman to the front of the artillery piece. This minimises how much damage the enemy can do to them and gives the artillery the maximum number of turns to shoot.

MajorStoffer wrote:Text

Well, it was claimed that DKoK was the go-to build, which it certainly is not. Especially since it has one decent build, which is overshadowed by IG or RoH doing the same one even better, and they have other builds.

But yes, I agree that the Guard (and most of its variants, Elysians are still one-of-a-kind) lacks unique builds and that many units are overpriced or simply unnecessary.

If you are not in a tournament and are playing against an opponent who believes its Ok to use triple shunting dreadknights, re-evaluate your choice of opponents not your army list.