Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You could fix IG fairly easy if you dropped Chimeras to 50 points, dropped Vendettas to 130, put Vultures in the core codex, returned Lumbering Behemoth to Russes allowing them to fire Ordnance and their other weapons at full BS, and tweaked the orders system to make them more effective.

Seriously - 5 minutes of altering the digital codex would make the army so much better.



Cheaper Chimeras and Vendettas = more mobility, but not without changing the character of IG.

Allowing Russes to fire Ordnance and other weapons at full BS would very much fit the feel of the tank in general, and justify the points' costs.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
You could fix IG fairly easy if you dropped Chimeras to 50 points, dropped Vendettas to 130, put Vultures in the core codex, returned Lumbering Behemoth to Russes allowing them to fire Ordnance and their other weapons at full BS, and tweaked the orders system to make them more effective.

Seriously - 5 minutes of altering the digital codex would make the army so much better.



Cheaper Chimeras and Vendettas = more mobility, but not without changing the character of IG.

Allowing Russes to fire Ordnance and other weapons at full BS would very much fit the feel of the tank in general, and justify the points' costs.

This.

Cheaper chimeras！they look better than Russes anyway . Then again I'm sure people would then just complain that the guard are OP, as much as I want it people would really complain about the drop in points for the air support. But that's just the game I guess. Any slight advantage will be moaned about.

Zsolt wrote:
their transport is really expensive (why does the elite SM have a 35 points transport while the lousy IG need to pay 65 points?), only has 2 fire points, it's heavy weapons are mediocre (for what role is the multilaser the best choice available? Exactly none). You can take up to 3 special weapons, but if you are in transport, you can use only 2 of them, so you wasted points and your firepower aren't that impressive.

Mechanically speaking, Rhinos are so cheap because of two reasons:

1) SM infantry are expensive. As in, really expensive.
2) Rhinos are only good at transporting things.

As an example, let's take an ultra-pimped Veteran squad:

-3x Plasma Guns
-Plasma Pistol
-Autocannon
-Carapace Armor

That's 145 points for the squad; a Chimera is 65 points, making the squad a total of 210 points. It then has 7 S7/AP2 shots at 12", 3 at 24", and 2 S7/AP4 shots from 0-48". They're in a transport that has 3 S6/AP6 and 3 S5/AP4 shots, all at 36".

An equally "pimped" Tactical Marine Squad:

- 2x Combi-Plasmas (SM Tac Sarges may in fact take two combis, you just need to swap his bolter for a chainsword/CCW first)
-1x Plasma Gun
-1x Plasma Cannon

This comes out to 190 points for the squad, plus 35 for the Rhino, for a total of 225 points. It's an extra 10 points to make the Sergeant a Veteran, for the Ld9 bonus he'd provide; given that we're "pimping" the squad, we'll throw that in too, for a grand total of 235 points.

The Tacs can push 4 S7/AP2 shots at 0-12", but only for 2 turns, at which point they have only 2 S7/AP2 shots at 0-12". The story is the same at 12-24", 2 shots for 2 turns, then you get one shot. You do have an S7/AP2 3" Blast that can go to 36"... but it also can't be snap-fired like the AC can, even if neither is going to be that effective on its own.

Rhinos have no guns that are useful, and also do not have the sturdy(er) AV12 front of a Chimera.

The Vets have far more firepower at their disposal, even just considering the shooting the Chimera can contribute. If you're going to compare transports, the Razorback is more accurate... but isn't really any better off.

Razorbacks:
+Cost 55 points base
-generally pay an extra 20 points for their better weapon options
+have AV11 sides
-has an AV11 front
+has side and rear access points
-has no fire points
+is BS4
-default weapon is a twin-linked HB
-Can only hold 6 models

Chimeras:
-Cost 65 points base
=have free weapon swaps
+have better base weapons (Multilaser+HB)
-have only BS3
+has two fire points
-has no side access points
+is Amphibious
+is a Command Vehicle
+has Lasgun Arrays
+has front AV12
-has side AV10
+can hold 12 models

In terms of pros vs cons, the Chimeras generally free weapon swaps aren't much improvement over its base armament, but the Chimera overall is a bit better than the Razorback- it might be 10 points more expensive, but it's got a lot going for it; 2 fire points, twice as much carrying capacity, better front armor, better built-in guns, and awesome synergy with Command Squads.

A Razorback that takes one of the better weapon options (like the TLAC or the LasPlas turrets) will cost 75 points- 10 more than a Chimera. And it really isn't that much better.

What if chimeras were given the Fast special rule? Would that help in any significance?

Whiskey, don't discount a 3+ save, superior WS, superior LD, etc. Marines are generally much harder to shift from objectives than Mech Vets. 3+ save is way better than 4+ save given all of the things out there that ignore cover, and just so happen to be AP4.

I'm not saying that Rhinos are undercosted, only that Chimeras are overcosted by about 15 points.

Personally I like the idea of a "Codex Astra Militarium: Steel Legion" book to fix this problem but since I don't see that happening ever I will go with the overhaul to the IG Codex as a whole:

1. Chimeras Go down to at least 55pts. and have access to Autocannon Turrets. Also they become Fast Vehicles (can make it an upgrade even).
2. Rough Riders are pointless right now, give them T4 and 2 wounds to represent the rider and horse.
3. Make the Vox literally be a Vox. If your squad has one you can receive orders anywhere on the battlefield as long as your CS has one.
4. To fix the issue of Sponsons on some of the Leman Russ Variants (it is up for debate however as it does say you "shoot by weapon" meaning you could shoot the other guns first before the Ordnance one) give them a "Heavy Tank" rule that allows them to fire Sponsons normally even if main gun shoots.
5. Also make Leman Russ tanks slightly cheaper, not much.
6. Make the Vendetta 150pts. a nice number in between the undercosted 130pts. and the ridiculous 170pts.

One of the primary issues guard have is toughness three heavy weapons teams, with wave serpents running around. If that gun disappeared, or dropped below str6, or lost ignores cover, or went to being short ranged then you would probably see a resurgence of the heavy weapons teams and mechvets.

That weapon is really, really going to change the meta if they adjust it at all...

If the list is infantry heavy. The key to having a nigh unbeatable guard list is tanks, lots and lots and lots of tanks.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Whiskey, don't discount a 3+ save, superior WS, superior LD, etc. Marines are generally much harder to shift from objectives than Mech Vets. 3+ save is way better than 4+ save given all of the things out there that ignore cover, and just so happen to be AP4.

I'm not saying that Rhinos are undercosted, only that Chimeras are overcosted by about 15 points.

There are a lot of things that Marines get to carry that they very rarely ever use- Frags, Kraks, WS/I 4. Superior Ld only holds if you compare base dude to base dude; moreover, the only way for Marines to get hard-line better Leadership is to spend 10 points to get the Vet Sarge.

Also... Chimeras aren't overcosted by 15 points. 10? Probably. 15? Not even. A Razorback that costs 55 points base has inferior frontal armor, better side armor and BS, and far worse troop capacity and weapons than the Chimera. I'd say that 55 points is the sweet spot for the Chimera.

Incidentally, 5th Ed IG had 55 point Chimeras...

I'd also like to point out that you shouldn't discount the superior firepower that the Vets have since they can get triple specials, and a heavy, and have one of the best heavy options (the AC).

 gmaleron wrote:
Personally I like the idea of a "Codex Astra Militarium: Steel Legion" book to fix this problem but since I don't see that happening ever I will go with the overhaul to the IG Codex as a whole:

1. Chimeras Go down to at least 55pts. and have access to Autocannon Turrets. Also they become Fast Vehicles (can make it an upgrade even).
2. Rough Riders are pointless right now, give them T4 and 2 wounds to represent the rider and horse.
3. Make the Vox literally be a Vox. If your squad has one you can receive orders anywhere on the battlefield as long as your CS has one.
4. To fix the issue of Sponsons on some of the Leman Russ Variants (it is up for debate however as it does say you "shoot by weapon" meaning you could shoot the other guns first before the Ordnance one) give them a "Heavy Tank" rule that allows them to fire Sponsons normally even if main gun shoots.
5. Also make Leman Russ tanks slightly cheaper, not much.
6. Make the Vendetta 150pts. a nice number in between the undercosted 130pts. and the ridiculous 170pts.

1. Chimeras with a base 55 point cost would be good, with 5 pt AC swap for the Multilaser. Fast Vehicle... not so much. I'd rather the Taurox be Fast, and a new vehicle type to describe "full firepower at Combat speed, but can still move at Cruising speed", and then apply that instead.
2. T3/2W; remember, DKoK Death Riders have fancy horses, and get 2 Wounds, but are still T3. Come to think of it though... crib the Death Korps Death Rider rules and use those for Rough Riders instead.
3. I like.
4. Amend the Heavy rule to allow full-BS shooting of any/all weapons, even if moving at Combat Speed or firing Ordnance.
5. ...I dunno, they seem like they're generally good pricing for what is a quite durable 14/13/10 3HP chassis
6. 130 would be fine, actually; part of what made 5th-ed Vendettas so undercosted (and thus amazing) was because they were starting on the board for a Turn 1 alpha strike of 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons per aircraft. Now that they're not coming till Turn 2 at the earliest, then 130 would, IMO, be fine. If you're still skittish, maybe 140?

Psh. Imperial Guard have a tool for everything.

Imperial Guard

 natpri771 wrote:
If the list is infantry heavy. The key to having a nigh unbeatable guard list is tanks, lots and lots and lots of tanks.

Which tanks? With which tanks are you planning to use anti-air, anti-tank (AV14), anti meq/teq, anti-horde? Where's your long range firesupport with LRs?

How do you remove a devastator squad sitting in ruins? You have AP2? Nice, still half your shots are wasted. And a thunderfire cannon sitting in a ruin with bolster defense?

How do you remove a wave serpent? With infantry, you can add ignore cover and tank hunter to lascannons along with prescience (you can put that one on tanks too), so it can pop a wave serpent. It will just jink away from your russ.

How do you remove two or more chaos sicarans with it's Accelerator autocannon and rending heavy bolters all with range from 36" to 48"?

Chimera are definitely about 10 points overcosted- the nerf to their firing ports was enough to justify leaving them at their old posts cost, even with the lasgun arrays.

I also like Vendettas at 130 points. If people are squeamish about that, get rid of the transport capacity altogether and let it fully become a gunship, but 3 TL BS3 lascannons is not worth more than 130 points, not in an edition where AP2 is only popping a vehicle on a 6.

Allowing Russes to fire all their weapons at full BS would also be a welcome change, and would go a ways toward balancing them.

As far as mobility is concerned, I really think that sentinels should have a 12'' move, with scout sentinels having scout+move through cover and the armored variety trading both for the AV12. I don't think that'd warrant a price-hike either, as their offensive capabilities are middling. Their primary purpose would be as a cheap and mobile objective scorer, which is exactly what the Guard desperately need.

The hellhound and variants need a points reduction. They should all cost around 105 points, imo, as none of them are distinctly better then the other to warrant a points difference.

When I play my ig I generally know if I'm going to win or not depending on game and table type, dawn of war vs wraiths usually means game over. Hammer and anvil give me a 50/50 chance depending on luck of the lists.

I regularly table players and that's imo how you have to play guard, we rarely win in obj holding or ms games now as 7th seems assault happy with it must admit I love (just not for my guard)

Things I love.

Ignore cover quad guns, lascanons, hot shot volley guns.
Vultures, best model ever
Pask in a vanquisher or punisher
Ccs in general
Priests with allies (can be massivly abused)
Cheap psykers

Things I hate
elite slot other than scions which I can make work
Losing the madusa
Rough riders
Hellhound prices
Strakens obscene price and ini 3

Imo a few tweaks could bump guard up a couple of places.

Scrap las array and make chimeras fast
Las sponsons on russ
Hellhound and vendetta drops 10-20 pts
Make the taurox 11 all round
Drop the points of hws and allow additional troops as fodder or make the t4/5
Give us a scout biker type unit for fast moving melta or demo charges





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and make vox extend the range of orders by something like 24"

Should also add that Beast Hunter shells on Vanquishers would well...first it would make me interested in buying a Vanquisher in the first place. Second, it would balance IG against some of the ridiculous Monstrous Creatures fielded by other factions.

 Jancoran wrote:
Psh. Imperial Guard have a tool for everything.

Imperial Guard

The problem with this is that at some level, many would consider the use of these tools to be list-tailoring. The reason why Guard are weak is because they cannot build a list which can take on nearly anything. Centurion-star kills anything that matters, and survives. Serpent spam can kill anything. Knights kill anything. Guard have to specialize, so you can't just make one list that can take all comers. You have to specialize for either taking on tanks or infantry. No matter how many Wyverns you bring you still need points dedicated past those for infantry. No matter how many Vendettas or Lascannon weapon teams you bring, you will need more than that.

Your pessimism is misplaced. I play against all the same things you do and the list performs fine.

The Astra Militarum is very good. Centurion Stars can be de-fanged with a pair of blobs using Precise shot and a number of other fun things like a Culexus ally.

Knights cant stop both the blobs in front and theplanes behind them from firing on them. There's just a lot of power packed into the IMperial Guardsman and I think that tactically, not enough credit is given to the ways in which those work together in a very normal list.

I cannto say that every game is a cake walk, because they arent. Daemon FMC circus's still give them fits if their planes dont come in in a timely fashion, and Hydras are situationally bad against some matchups.

But overall the Wave spam you mention is of least concern, Knights are in trouble if they come in great numbers against IG and the Centstar is a super legit concern but not one that is insurmountable.

I like the IG against most comers. its easy top say "Grotesques suck because: Vindicator" but in reality, thats only if the Vindicator ever gets its chance. The same holds true for all deathstars. the trick is stalling the deathstars long enough.

 Jancoran wrote:
Your pessimism is misplaced. I play against all the same things you do and the list performs fine.

The Astra Militarum is very good. Centurion Stars can be de-fanged with a pair of blobs using Precise shot and a number of other fun things like a Culexus ally.

Knights cant stop both the blobs in front and theplanes behind them from firing on them. There's just a lot of power packed into the IMperial Guardsman and I think that tactically, not enough credit is given to the ways in which those work together in a very normal list.

I cannto say that every game is a cake walk, because they arent. Daemon FMC circus's still give them fits if their planes dont come in in a timely fashion, and Hydras are situationally bad against some matchups.

But overall the Wave spam you mention is of least concern, Knights are in trouble if they come in great numbers against IG and the Centstar is a super legit concern but not one that is insurmountable.

I like the IG against most comers. its easy top say "Grotesques suck because: Vindicator" but in reality, thats only if the Vindicator ever gets its chance. The same holds true for all deathstars. the trick is stalling the deathstars long enough.

I generally agree here, I play some excellent players and some real cheesy lists but I always do alright with guard. As stated draigo cents can be a pain but I just reserve most armor get my assassin near by.
Wave serpent spam is my favourite though, ignore cover lascanons in ccs and a vet squads in ruins each round wreck there game plan. Only army I struggle with atm is that dam wraith spam harvest.

Guard have so many options but the danger is not going with a clear strategy or game plan and just using a Little of everything or the most common thing is see which is over upgrading units.

Vendettas are one of the best flyer in the game with the current point they have, they truly don't need a point drop. they're VERY tough for flyer, almost as tough as it gets, can transport troops, can go down (hover) to actually score if needed, AND have excellent shooting with 3 TL lascannon who have very high str, low ap and great range.

Consider a Predator which is a good tank, not amazing or OP but definetely a good choice, its 145pts for 3 lascannon shots, only 1 of which is TL, even with Bs4 it adds up to a bit less hits then the vendetta, yet its more expensive then 130pts.
Due to not flying the Predator will be considerably easier to kill (no snapshot and no jinking), is much slower, does not transport anything and cannot go into squadrons. The vendetta SHOULD be a fair amount more expensive, 170pts is not too much for this kind of unit, 130pts would be ridiculous.


I could possibly agree to a 5pts decrease to the LR tanks but more isnt needed.

as previously mentionned the issue isnt that IG cant stand and shoot properly, its a lack of mobility so making the already great units that are being used cheaper isnt the solution. That would just make them way OP in some scenarios and still weak in their current achiles heel.
The solution would be to find a way for IG to have some needed mobility at the price of requiring to put points into that.

a fast transport really does seem like a good idea in the concept of giving them some mobility, I also like the idea of some form of biker unit, that could still feel pretty IG.
Outrider could get a minor buff.
maybe an order that makes all units arround the character get fleet for a turn (RUN, GO GO GO!!!!)

We also need to remeber that to balance a codex out you can't just buff the stuff that is too weak, you also need to nerf what is too strong in it. herein lies the difficult part of rebalancing.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Vendettas are one of the best flyer in the game with the current point they have, they truly don't need a point drop. they're VERY tough for flyer, almost as tough as it gets, can transport troops, can go down (hover) to actually score if needed, AND have excellent shooting with 3 TL lascannon who have very high str, low ap and great range.

Consider a Predator which is a good tank, not amazing or OP but definetely a good choice, its 145pts for 3 lascannon shots, only 1 of which is TL, even with Bs4 it adds up to a bit less hits then the vendetta, yet its more expensive then 130pts.
Due to not flying the Predator will be considerably easier to kill (no snapshot and no jinking), is much slower, does not transport anything and cannot go into squadrons. The vendetta SHOULD be a fair amount more expensive, 170pts is not too much for this kind of unit, 130pts would be ridiculous.


I could possibly agree to a 5pts decrease to the LR tanks but more isnt needed.

as previously mentionned the issue isnt that IG cant stand and shoot properly, its a lack of mobility so making the already great units that are being used cheaper isnt the solution. That would just make them way OP in some scenarios and still weak in their current achiles heel.
The solution would be to find a way for IG to have some needed mobility at the price of requiring to put points into that.

a fast transport really does seem like a good idea in the concept of giving them some mobility, I also like the idea of some form of biker unit, that could still feel pretty IG.
Outrider could get a minor buff.
maybe an order that makes all units arround the character get fleet for a turn (RUN, GO GO GO!!!!)

We also need to remeber that to balance a codex out you can't just buff the stuff that is too weak, you also need to nerf what is too strong in it. herein lies the difficult part of rebalancing.

I'm not sure why the current Vendetta would be "too strong" at 130 points. The Predator comparison is innately flawed; Predators have the benefit of AV13 frontal armor and being able to start on the board... but they also suffer from having gak mobility and being highly vulnerable to deployment cutting off good firelanes for them.

Vendettas have better side armor and mobility that prevents them from being locked up with no targets like a Predator does- except that Vendettas aren't likely to hit the board until Turn 3, a Vendetta that jinks might land one hit, and the current mechanics/meta actually make Vendettas not as good, because if you want an Explodes result you're reduced to fishing for 6s. Vendettas could hull things out- but against a lot of the higher-armor targets that you might point a Vendetta at, you're lucky to get more than a single HP off, particularly given that due to the changes made to the vehicle damage chart, if you want to use Lascannons to Explodes things, then you're just fishing for 6s.

Vendettas in 5th Edition Rules were OP because they started on the board and provided an amazing Turn 1 alpha strike, since under the 5th Edition rules the Vendetta was a Fast Skimmer. Now that it's a Flyer- and thus must start in Reserves, it's not nearly as impressive and the current 170 points it costs is too much.

Yet perhaps 130 is too low... but 170 is still far too high.

Its not. almost all the flyers went up in price or started higher than that. The vendetta is a boss.

The biggest problem IMHO is IG have to spam to be affective. You can't take just one Vendetta, one LR, a squad in one Chimera, one Manticore etc. etc. So making a balanced list is kinda hard these days.

Guard is still hard to beat because of their numbers and in cover are hard to root out.

That said, a lot of problems are a by product of the current rules of the game rather then the army itself.

Though I guess my thoughts would be:
Options to have Stormtroopers or 'tank aces' upgrade to bump up the BS of tanks.

Bring back Lumbering Behemoth for ALL Guard treaded vehicles. (They are all supposed to be fairly sluggish compared to SM and other army's armor options. Even the Chimera is a slug compared to a Rhino in fluff.)

I LOVE idea to make voxs have unlimited range on Voxs for orders. The game's scale really makes them right now look worse then Fisher Price walkie talkies.

Rough Riders should get T4, and Sv +4 with an option to go up to Sv +3, and lances that can be used after round 1.

Ogryns need a points shave off.

And I like BlaxicanX's ideas on Sentinels.

The only thing I wish guard had was formations and full bs leman russes when firing ordnance. Formations are steel host and... that's it? A mechanized formation would be cool. 1 ccs and 2-6 vet squads in chimera.

Also ogryns. They cool, but not 45 pts a model cool.

The Vendettas are as shooty as a Predator but are much faster, can transport troops, can avoid being charged it it just choses to fly (you know that really big weakness that regular vehicules have) and are TONS more resilient then a Predator.
Jinking and flyers are really strong options that the Predator does not have. The Vendettas deserve to be 25pts more expensive.


Vendettas are actually particularly well suited to jink since they have a good rate of fire (3 shots) and TL to re-roll them all, they reasonably should still get a Str9 ap 2 to hit even when they jink.
Consider all the other flyers who are are pretty much all unlikely to hit anything if they do jink. Vendettas stand out as being on the complete top of the list of flyers for using this ability they all have.

Vendettas also stand out as being on the top of the list for toughness, sure Stormtalons have AV12 in the back too but they are 200pts and only shoot twice per turn (one-shot missile not counted).

They also can Hover to potentially score, consider other well used flyers like the Crimson Hunters, Razorwing jetfighter etc, who dont even have that options, once again at the top of the list of flyers

They can also transport if they would want, helping the current issue of lack of maneuverabilty the codex has on top of the lack of anti tank it has, so vendettas are relevant to their codex.

They also shoot hard, they can easilly out-shoot other flyers in a drawed out fight, especially if considering that they can, unlike others, go in squadrons, doubling or trippling the firepower of a single FA slot (wouldnt heldrakes love to be able to do this, FA slot is in heavy demand in the Chaos codex).
Sure alpha strike isnt their thing but are you really gonna complain if you don't have EVERYTHING?



They are one of the BEST OF ALL THE FLYERS IN THE GAME and making them even 150pts would put them as the cheapest one out there too.

if you are amongst the strongest in the game in almost all relevant category (offense, defense, relevancy to codex) then you should, in all justice, also be one of the most expensive point wise.

a Storm Talon is 200pts, a crimson Hunter is 180-160pts, a Heldrake is 170pts, a Razorwing Jetfighter is 155-165pts and Voidraven Bomber is 175pts when moderately equipped, other flying vehicules aren't really worth considering since they aren't really used.
would 130pts Vendettas really be a fair pointing?

Who would think that a Vendetta should be cheaper in points then all of the flyers after considering this? whats your arguments?

Mobility wise, we do have 2 orders for that; one that's fire+run and the other is 3 dice for running.

Not the best I know. I either rely on rolling a 1 and outflank something or use my scout sentinels and appear in the flank.

As for changing wish list...

-Vox allows to give/receive orders anywhere
-Stormtroopers being better than your average guardsman. WS, BS and I at 4, Ld at 8, (9 for the Sgt.), give them pistols and CCW too, so they actually can be more than just glorified over costed Vets.
-Anyone Remembers the Salamander scout vehicle? How about we bring that back?

 fartherthanfar wrote:
The Vendettas are as shooty as a Predator but are much faster, can transport troops, can avoid being charged it it just choses to fly (you know that really big weakness that regular vehicules have) and are TONS more resilient then a Predator.
Jinking and flyers are really strong options that the Predator does not have. they deserve to be more expensive.

Jinking is a fantastic way to send all of your firepower straight down the crapper, and Zooming with a Flyer allows your opponent the opportunity to use some geometry tricks to lock up your flyer into a specific attack run that will force it off the board. Moreover, what the hell are you throwing into a Vendetta?

PCS/CCS? So 5 T3 dudes, with, at best, 4+ armor? Or maybe a SWS, which is 6 dudes with 5+ armor? Don't forget that Vendettas only hold 6 models, and there's what, five units that actually fit into the Vendetta? And around half of them are 5+ armor, while the others are perhaps too expensive for what they really offer, especially as an ultimately disposable payload for the Vendetta?

You also keep ignoring that Flyers- like the Vendetta, say- MUST start the game in Reserve. If you're lucky and bring reserves manipulation, then maybe you'll have it show up Turn 2. Otherwise, you're looking at Turns 3 or 4. Which means that the Vendetta will likely spend half the game doing nothing.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Vendettas are actually particularly well suited to jink since they have a good rate of fire (3 shots) and TL to re-roll them all, they reasonably should still get a Str9 ap 2 to hit even when they jink, consider all other flyer who are are pretty much all unlikely to hit anything if they do jink. Vendettas stand out as being on the complete top of the list of flyers for using this ability they all have.

Let's see, shall we? A Vendetta has 3 TL Lascannons, and when Jinking must Snap Shoot, making it effectively BS1.

3 shots x BS1 x TL = ~0.92 hits.

Say we're shooting at AV12; S9 vs AV12 is ~0.61 HPs removed, ~0.46 penetrating hits.

If I've done my math right, that's an ~7.7% chance to inflict an explodes result. IE, you're fishing for 6s because Jinking shuts down your own firepower.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Vendettas also stand out as being on the top of the list for toughness, sure Stormtalons have AV12 in the back too but they are 200pts and only shoot twice per turn, (one-shot missile not counted)

Storm Talons are AV11/11/11 2HPs. They cost 110 points base, or 125 points with the generally favored Skyhammer ML. It produces 4 S6/AP4 Rending shots from the TLAC it carries, as well as 3 S7/AP4 shots from the Skyhammer. The TLAC has a 24" range, while the Skyhammer can reach out to 60".

Storm Ravens are AV12/12/12 3HPs and have Armored Ceramite. They typically carry a TLAC and a TL MM as their preferred weapon loadout, in addition to the 4 Stormstrike Missiles. Stormravens also have PotMS, so they can potentially shoot at two targets per turn, and PotMS allows it to fire a weapon at full-BS even if it Jinks. Ravens also carry 12, have an Assault ramp, 4 access points, and a Dreadnought clamp. While very expensive to supply transportees for all of that, it can do it.

Color me unimpressed that Vendettas are neither affordable air support like a Talon nor the capacity and overall versatility (and general firepower) of a Raven.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
They also can Hover to potentially score, consider other well used flyers like the Crimson Hunters, Razorwing jetfighter etc, who dont even have that options, once again at the top of the list of flyers

Hovering makes it a gloriously easy target for the common S6/7 spam that dominates the meta. Moreover, Crimson Hunters and Razorwings are not designed to "hover", since they have only one job that they do quite well: kill the everloving gak out of anything that wanders into their fire arcs.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
They can also transport if they would want, helping the current issue of lack of maneuverabilty the codex has on top of the lack of anti tank it has, so vendettas are relevant to their codex.

What exactly are you throwing into a Vendetta that's so great? I mean, if you want high-mobility transport, then a Valkyrie is waiting over their, and it's about 74% the cost of a Vendetta (~79% the cost of a Vendetta if you throw MRPs onto the Valk).

 fartherthanfar wrote:
They also shoot hard, they can easilly out-shoot other flyers in a drawed out fight

Hard to have a drawn out fight when you end up flying off the board or get shot down first.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
especially if considering that they can, unlike others, go in squadrons, doubling or trippling the firepower of a single FA slot

That's called "overpriced" and "overkill", as it is both far too expensive to do so and ends up wasting firepower.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
(wouldnt heldrakes love to be able to do this, FA slot is in heavy demand in the Chaos codex).

...since when? I was under the impression that FA isn't a great slot for CSM, but that HS was the most heavily contended slot. Besides, Heldrakes lost a lot of their bite when they were (finally) changed to have the Baleflamer fixed-forward rather than that idiotic "oh it's a turret even though the model can't actually turn the weapon behind it".

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Sure alpha strike isnt their thing but are you really gonna complain if you don't have EVERYTHING?

...You obviously do not get my point: Vendettas can't alpha strike, and so they would be perfectly fine at their old cost- they simply can't provide that level of capability anymore.

I am in no way complaining that Vendettas can't alpha strike anymore- I am pointing out that because they cannot do so, they can reasonably be cheaper.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
They are one of the BEST OF ALL THE FLYERS IN THE GAME and making them even 150pts would put them as the cheapest one out there too.

if you are the strongest in the game in almost all relevant category (offense, defense, other abilities, relevancy to codex) then you should, in all justice, also be one of the most expensive point wise.

Really? I wouldn't say that Vendettas are the strongest AV-based flyer in the game in the slightest. I'd probably throw that bone to the Crimson Hunter, or maybe a Stormraven if it could be guaranteed a Turn 2 arrival every time.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
a Storm Talon is 200pts, a crimson Hunter is 180-160pts, a Heldrake is 170pts, a Jetfight is 155-165pts and voidraven Bomber is 175pts when moderately equipped, other flying vehicules aren't really worth considering since they aren't really used.
would 130pts Vendettas really be a fair pointing?

Let's really consider this and what these other flyers are getting:

Storm Talons are 125 points with the traditional Skyhammer, and 140 with the TLLC mount.
Storm Ravens are 200 points, 205 with EA. They can swap between TLAC, TLLC, and TLPC for free, and also swap their TLHB for a TL MM.
Oh, and both the Marine flyers have Ceramite Plating, making them ignore the effects of the Melta rule (IE, Melta weapons don't get 2D6 pen for half range against a Talon or a Raven)

Crimson Hunters are 160 points, 180 if you spring for the Exarch who is only there to bring BS5.
Heldrakes are 170 points, and come with a Hades AC that they typically pass on by taking the free swap for the Baleflamer.
Razorwing Jetfighters are 130 base, and probably sit around 150 with twin Dark Lances and the Splinter Cannon swap. Throw on Night Shields for Stealth and you get 165 points.
Voidraven Bombers are 160 points, and come with a pair of S9/AP2 Lance weapons along with a S9/AP2 Lance Small Blast bomb weapon.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Who would think that a Vendetta should be cheaper in points then all of the flyers after considering this? whats your arguments?

Considering that literally every other flyer can often function under conditions that a Vendetta could not, I think that Vendettas should indeed be cheaper. Storm Talons are cheap, Stormravens can pull a lot of different roles (though it's a lot of points in a single basket; though many of those roles are also similar to the Vendetta, and the 'Raven does it better), Crimson Hunters bring stupendous AA firepower, and even some very capable anti-vehicle on account of the amount of S8/AP2 shots they spit out. Razorwings and Voidravens both can bring a lot of AA/AV capability, plus the added lethality of packing the various DE missile payloads. Heldrakes are nearly unkillable, thanks to IWND, a 5++ (damn thing doesn't need to Jink, it's got a native 5++!), and are functionally immune to Shaken/Stunned results.

All of those flyers are better than the Vendetta, for one reason or another. And of those flyers, half of them aren't even that great! They're either pitifully vulnerable to Intereptor/Skyfire weapons (like Aegis Quad-Guns) due to being mostly AV10, or they're priced through the roof for what they offer (Stormravens...), or even both!

hello Mr Whiskey


Im not ignoring the fact that jinking harm your firepower or the lack of alpha strike (must start in reserve issue) that flyer have, I am saying this is not a Vendetta issue but a flyer issue and I dont find flyers underpowered in this edition so it doesnt need to change.
So I started comparing the Vendetta to other flyers and finds it compares more then adequately to other flyers.

I never said vendettas were "the best" flyer of the game I said it was "one of the best", important distiction.
The examples of other flyers I gave are the very best Flyer option that continually see support in competitive settings, if the Vendettas can compare to them in power then they are fine.

I agree that stormTalons are stronger then Vendettas, they are also Tougher, can carry more and hit a bit harder normally, they are, to compensate, more expensive at a considerable 30-35pts more though, so I do not believe they are particularly better, they are about on the similar level of power.
I apologise for mixing up the name of Stormtalon and Stormraven, that was indeed my error.
Storm talons are so frail I didnt consider them since I never see them being considered seriously.

Heldrakes are also surely as good as Vendettas or even a tiny bit better even with the recent nerf to vector strike and gun arc. The Heldrakes is easier to kill than a Vendetta though IF it doesnt Jink, IWND wont do anything if you get killed in one turn, even if you survive its not likely.
And Heldrakes are probably still underpointed at 170pts.
(if you didnt know that the FA slot was contested in CSM then perhaps you haven't explored it too much, the Chaos spawns and bikers are amazing.)

Eldar and Dark Eldar Flyers have glaring weaknesses in the form of defense that keeps them from being stronger then a Vendetta, if you want to compensate for this huge weakness by jinking you lose their firepower more than a Vendenta would,



The Vendettas have many option which I will agree have their drawbacks (hovering make you more vulnerable, not much other than a min squad of veterans can fit in cargo, etc) but at least they do have the option, which is much better than not having it.
I agree that useless abilities dont amount to much but these abilities actually do have their use so they are worth consideration.



Also of course every good flyer can "function under certain conditions" better then a Vendetta, its not suppose to be the best in ALL categories!!! It happens to be highly competitive in mostly all ways though so should be at the very least even in points.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Im not ignoring the fact that jinking harm your firepower or the lack of alpha strike (must start in reserve issue) that flyer have, I am saying this is not a Vendetta issue but a flyer issue and I dont find flyers underpowered in this edition so it doesnt need to change.

I am not disputing that all Flyers do not have the same problem. I am disputing the comparison to something like a Predator, as the Predator starts on the board, and is likely to be locked up without a good target due to LOS/mobility issues.
So I started comparing the Vendetta to other flyers and finds it compares more then adequately to other flyers.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
I never said vendettas were "the best" flyer of the game I said it was "one of the best", important distiction.

Really? Because I saw this:

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Tif you are the strongest in the game in almost all relevant category (offense, defense, relevancy to codex) then you should, in all justice, also be one of the most expensive point wise.

Which certainly seems to be a claim that the Vendetta is the best flyer in the game.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
I agree that stormTalons are stronger then Vendettas, they are also Tougher, can carry more and hit a bit harder normally, they are, to compensate, more expensive at 30-35pts more though, so I do not believe they are particularly better, they are about on the similar level of power.
I apologise for mixing up the name of Stormtalon and Stormraven, that was indeed my error.
Storm talons are so frail I didnt consider them since I never see them being considered seriously.

Storm Talons aren't that flimsy- 11/11/11 2HPs seems like it, but keep in mind that if you bring two of them you could have one escort the other, and then suddenly your opponent must pick which one to shoot. Or you could have it escort a 'Raven.

Also, a 'Raven isn't that much tougher in practice. It's slightly better off when Jinking due to PotMS allowing a full-BS weapon and AV12 rear armor, but it's still 3HPs. Melta isn't likely to be turned on a 'Raven or a Vendetta if it hovers, so Ceramite Plating is a "nice to have" bonus.

And again, the 'Raven gains superior versatility, firepower during Jink, and carry capacity. Oh, and thanks to PotMS, it can still fire at full BS even if it takes a Stunned/Shaken result.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
IHeldrakes are also surely as good as Vendettas or even a tiny bit better even with the recent nerf to vector strike and gun arc. The Heldrakes is frailer then a Vendetta though if it doesnt Jink, IWND wont do anything if you get killed in one turn, even if you survive its not likely. And they are probably underpointed still at 170pts.

I am not disputing that Heldrakes are good. In fact, I contend that they are better than Vendettas, particularly given that Heldrakes do not need to Jink. In case you didn't notice, Heldrakes have a 5++ by virtue of the Daemon USR. So Heldrakes? Yeah, more durable than Vendettas on account of the 5++ and IWND and Daemonic Possession giving effective immunity to Stunned/Shaken results.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
the Crimson hunter has glaring weaknesses in the form of defense that keeps it from being stronger then a Vendetta (jinking kills the Hunters firepower more than Vendentas),

So in other words, like the majority of Flyers, Crimson Hunters are fairly thin. Of course, this is completely ignoring Eldar firepower (especially with Serpent Spam lists), and the fact that it's very likely that an Eldar player will have removed any AA platforms from the field before his Crimson Hunter hits the board.

At which point Crimson Hunters can play all kinds of angle games, on account of having Vector Dancer to prevent them from being locked up hard the way other flyers can.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
The Vendettas have many option which I will agree have their drawbacks (hovering make you more vulnerable, not much other than a min squad of veterans can fit in cargo, etc) but at least they do have the option, which is much better than not having it. I agree that useless abilities dont amount to much but these abilities actually do have their use so they are worth consideration.

The other Flyers end up being better because they pay points to do a particular task really well. Well, most of them. Stormravens are difficult to justify without loading them for bear with a squad+Dread, which means that you pay through the nose to have a good chunk of your army start in Reserve, where they aren't being useful.

In any case, a Crimson Hunter, Razorwing, Voidraven, or Heldrake all bring firepower or durability far above the Vendetta. Who needs transport capacity when you can simply delete things from the board?

Oh, and to be clear, IG Vets don't fit in Vendettas now that Vendettas only hold 6. Here's a list of squads that can fit:

SWS
PCS
CCS
Tempestus Scions
Scion CS

I mean, it's not quite complete, as you could throw Ratlings or Wyrdvane Psykers in a Vendetta if you completely lost your mind (or wanted to do it for shiggles).

 fartherthanfar wrote:
the examples of other flyers I gave are the very best Flyer option that continually see support in competitive settings, if the Vendettas can compare to them in power then they are fine.

The problem is that Vendettas compare very poorly for their cost. It's okay though, Tac Marines have had to languish in such a state for what, four editions now? I'm sure GeeDubs will fix Vendettas just like they fixed Tacs... oops, maybe not.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
IOf course every good flyer can "function under certain conditions" better then a Vendetta, its not suppose to be the best in ALL categories!!! it is highly competitive in all categories though so should be at the very least even in points.

The problem is that the Vendetta cannot bring the raw firepower that, say, a Crimson Hunter or either of the DE flyers can bring. Nor can it bring the durability of the Heldrake, or the cost-efficiency of the Storm Talon, or the sheer capacity of the Stormraven.

It cannot do any of those things, and yet carries a comparable price tag. Much like Tacs, the Vendetta can do a few things okay-ish-ly... if that.

Of course I know Heldrakes have a 5++, im saying that when a vendetta jinks, the 4+ save is better then the non jinking Heldrake, (you know, 4+ save is better then 5+ save), what will kill a non jinking Heldrake in one turn won't necessarely kill a vendetta in one turn. Since ignore cover anti-flyer options are very rare the difference between invul saves and cover save is very minimal, IWND and deamonic possession doesnt make the Heldrake take more hits if it gets killed in one turn. and even if it does take wounds yet doesnt die, its not probable to gain more then 1 wound per three turns of being wounded, not really amazing, its not bad but not that great most of the time.
In this sense the Vendetta is in the same league as the heldrake in terms of toughness.

I apologise I meant "amongst the strongest in the game" instead of "the strongest in the game" but aside from that my point still stands, I have changed it in my post to avoid further confusion.

and for the Eldar flyers I do NOT mean that "like the majority of other flyers hunters are fairly thin", I mean that they are very frail in a manner that is at a completely different level as the Vendetta. one so much lower that I really hope that The Eldar crafts are much more offensive to compensate or else they would be crap.

To your last point:
It IS true that the Vendettas don't bring the raw firepower of a Hunter and DE Flyers, BUT its so much tougher it DESERVES the same pricetag,
It CAN bring the durability of a heldrake so deserves a similar pricetag, which as mentionned earlier the heldrake is underpriced a bit,
Sure its more expensive then the Talon but being about twice as tough and more killy makes up for it, so cost efficientcy is about even.
and since it has less capacity as the stormraven then it should indeed by less expensive than it... as it is...

Everything is at it should be for the Vendetta

A properly made mech guard can have an answer for pretty much any occasion. My current list seems to be shaking up well; well enough I'm currently considering ditching my vets' chimeras and Meltaguns and rewriting them as an autocannon and flamer wall for the artillery to hide behind the forward Sentries of. I'm just not sure I can regain enough in the process to make it worth it.

I dont think two of anything is really spamming. Im not sure IG need more than two of any one unit in their force to work. So Guard LOOK hordeish on a table sometimes but Im not sure i agree that they need to "spam" anything.