Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The 3+ (or 2+ with mark of Khorne) on 2d6 worked great for terminators, but remember, when that was a thing, there was no AP. There were armor modifiers, for example an assault cannon(most powerful normal gun in the game) I think was like -6 modifer to your save, and yes that means power armor couldnt save.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It can be as survivable as it wants, since it just lost access to 70% of its fire-power.

and.....Exalted

Plasma isn't the problem.

It's every other thing that is AP2 with zero downside.

Plasma is sooooo 4th edition.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No model or unit costing less than 250 points should have access to AP2 in a form larger than a small blast- that means no flamer templates and no large+ blasts.

Ah! No

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No model or unit costing less than 250 points should have access to AP2 in a form larger than a small blast- that means no flamer templates and no large+ blasts.

Individual models should never have more than 2 shots with an AP2 gun unless it's on a special character (rending doesn't count). A rare allowance may be made for 3+ shot AP2 on weapons with a range of 24'' or less.

Those changes would go a long way toward fixing Terminators, and generally balancing the game. I agree with Gaz that the problem with Terminators (and Marines in general) has more to do with the power creep in the game then the units themselves for the most part.

So Eldar get to keep their bladestorm then? No thanks, you xenos have the better codexes any (barring orks). I'll keep my gets hot plasma ap2 guns, and my grav guns that hard counter op WKs.

Uhhh... how would any of the metrics I listed take away plasma guns?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No model or unit costing less than 250 points should have access to AP2 in a form larger than a small blast- that means no flamer templates and no large+ blasts.

Individual models should never have more than 2 shots with an AP2 gun unless it's on a special character (rending doesn't count). A rare allowance may be made for 3+ shot AP2 on weapons with a range of 24'' or less.

Those changes would go a long way toward fixing Terminators, and generally balancing the game. I agree with Gaz that the problem with Terminators (and Marines in general) has more to do with the power creep in the game then the units themselves for the most part.

Tactical terminators have absolutely no firepower worth caring about and neither do Meganobz and this does exactly nothing to make them more survivable against pure dakka which is what generally actually ends up killing most of them. So in return for hobbling Riptides and Grav Cents you have made Terminators...still crap.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No model or unit costing less than 250 points should have access to AP2 in a form larger than a small blast- that means no flamer templates and no large+ blasts.

So, get rid of demolisher cannons. Makes sense to me. /sarcasm

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
No model or unit costing less than 250 points should have access to AP2 in a form larger than a small blast- that means no flamer templates and no large+ blasts.

So, get rid of demolisher cannons. Makes sense to me. /sarcasm

Oh yes, and neutering guard artillery like Medusas and Demolisher cannons.

The answer is currently buffing terminators, because neutering other units still doesn't give tactical termies and meganobz enough dakka to be worth it. Chaos termies get some use because they can be used as "wish I was a sternguard" suicide special weapons drop units, and Wraithguard, who are TEQs in a somewhat roundabout way, are widely used because they all bring such devastating firepower, so there's clearly merit to improving TEQ firepower for increasing their usability.

(Directed at Blaxican, not you)

I could never understand why they changed from armour save modifiers to the whole you either get your full save or you don't they did for 3rd edition. Weapons had more variables in those days so you didn't get as many guns that could do it all as weapons in 3rd and after only had 4 stats (ecxepting special rules) rather than the 8 there were before.

And the way that cover worked too to be honest.

The first time I played my Space Wolves after years of playing Guard back in 4th edition I habitually put my Grey Hunters into cover and was promptly giggled at with players pointing out that cover is pretty pointless unless he swings the big guns at your Marines.

I thought this to be just plain odd to be fair. Surely even against bolter fire there should be a diference between standing in the middle of a field and crouching in a foxhole/trench....

Basically I'm trying (in a roundabout way) to say that the 3+ save on 2d6 od RT and 2nd ed was not as overpowered as a current 2+ re-rollable armour save but it did wonders to stop small arms fire. When it went to 2+ on D6 my friend's beautifully painted Deathwatch cried to my mighty lasgun fire and even I felt bad......

And that keeping your termies in cover used to save you from even being hit by ~33% of the incoming weight of fire.

Unfortunately for the players who like to keep up to date with rulesets, for GW new editons don't make for better rules.

By making armor saves 2d6 rolling them would be a pain. It would be one thing if that was a stick of one special terminator character, but having it as a general rule seems like a bad idea.

I still do not get why people are seemingly obsessed with changing the whole game around so that terminators become awesome. Their problem is not their survivability. Not really. Bump them up to t5 and either give them a new kit with better weapons or lower their price.

Their problems are that of most space marine things. They simply are outdated having no purpose, much like most dreadnaught variants. if they actually had scary shooting they would not be so bad.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

So Eldar get to keep their bladestorm then? No thanks, you xenos have the better codexes any (barring orks). I'll keep my gets hot plasma ap2 guns, and my grav guns that hard counter op WKs.

Though I agree with you that other armies should have access to AP2 weaponry below 250 points everything else you said is dead wrong. The Imperium of Man codexes are the strongest in the game because unlike the Xenos races you get to play with literally over half the armies in the game if you wanted to. I don't know why so many IOM players have this bias against xenos armies, they shouldn't have to cater to you guys to make your army better.

Don't even get me started on the new Imperial Knight formations as well as Skitarri in Blood Angel drop pod shenanigans. Also the Wraith Knight is strong but its not invincible, not even close. Especially with the new Mechanicum getting those lovely new tread Servitors with Salvo Heavy Grav Cannons that you can take and squads of 12. oh and you touch on my earlier. They are battle brothers with all the Imperial armies. This "Xenos is OP and better than the Imperium" comments and train of thought is dead wrong and needs to stop.

What about “Eldars are OP compared to Chaos, Orks, Dark Eldars, …” ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
What about “Eldars are OP compared to Chaos, Orks, Dark Eldars, …” ?

Now that actually makes sense! Except for Dark Eldar since they can take Eldar... Really I just don't like saying anything is OP, rather think constructively about how to deal with it instead of cry about it.

You can think constructively about how to defeat a unit yet still admit it is OP.

I would say that a lot of xeno codices are stronger( not op, I just said that about the WK) . The IoM has ally shenanigans going for it, but alot of the codexes flop on their own.

I will concede that all imperial knight armies are stupid though generally. Very one-sided battles if you know what I mean

Poly Ranger wrote:
You can think constructively about how to defeat a unit yet still admit it is OP.

If it were OP I would but it isn't, is it strong? Yes but it has plenty of counters, especially from the IoM armies with the amount of Grav Weapons they can now take (look at the new Mechanicum Tread Servitors to see what I mean)

Honestly I think just knocking them down to an acceptable points level would solve the problem. Also, it'd be fine to cut some points to get rid of some of obligatory but unnecessary buffs they come with (i.e. 5++, storm bolters) for a points reduction. This makes more sense to me than changing a whole slew of units in order to make a single one viable.

 Kain wrote:
Tactical terminators have absolutely no firepower worth caring about and neither do Meganobz and this does exactly nothing to make them more survivable against pure dakka

What does this have to do with my suggestion?

Also, while I mentioned terminators, keep in mind that this thread isn't explicitly about terminators- it's about the oversaturation of AP2 in the game in general.

 Peregrine wrote:
So, get rid of demolisher cannons. Makes sense to me. /sarcasm

Nope, nerf them.

Bump to 250 points, or make them AP3. Pick one.

That's ridiculous, just about anything with a demolisher cannon as a main gun is already overcosted and not every efficient. Furthermore, they were always present (and costed less than 250 pts) before the so called ''oversaturaiton'' of AP2 stuff, and even then, they weren't really used that much.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Nope, nerf them.

Bump to 250 points, or make them AP3. Pick one.

250 point Vindicators/LR demolishers/etc would be crippled and useless against everything that isn't terminators, and probably even against terminators. And AP 3 would be stupid on a weapon that is supposed to be one of the most powerful guns you can get short of superheavies. Do you really think that it's appropriate for a demolisher cannon to have worse AP than a lascannon?

What happens? Exocrines become ap3 and Nids loose access to one of the only ap2 weapons they have at all. Thanks. No thanks.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Tactical terminators have absolutely no firepower worth caring about and neither do Meganobz and this does exactly nothing to make them more survivable against pure dakka

What does this have to do with my suggestion?

Also, while I mentioned terminators, keep in mind that this thread isn't explicitly about terminators- it's about the oversaturation of AP2 in the game in general.

I'm saying your suggestion is silly because it doesn't fix anything that's bad about TEQs, thus you force a mass, cackhanded rebalancing that still doesn't make people want to take the units it's supposed to be for the benefit of.

The easier and the correct solution is to buff TEQs, not rip through a dozen different weapons that aren't actually what kill things with 2+ saves that aren't attached to models with three or more wounds or taking away some of the only ranged AP2 that some armies even have.

I think the best solution is to move back to an armour save modifier system and give Terminators either a reroll or some rule like they halve the save modifier of the weapon attacking them rounding down (so a -1 save modifer does nothing, -2 and -3 counts as -2, etc).

I don't think making those type of weapons AP3 would be the way to go.

For me personally, I would like to see Terminator armour get 1+ added to their invulnerable save against plasma. So for a standard terminator it is a 5+ invun usually, but against plasma it goes to 4+ invun save.

This would make terminator armour more close to the fluff, as they were originally made to withstand plasma reactor radiation etc.

I would have a maximum of 3+ invun save so SS termies use either the 3+ from their SS or the 4+ from their armour (no reason for them to do that, but still). Characters in terminator armour with a Iron Halo giving them a 4+ save would become a 3+ invun save against plasma.

All other weaponry has the usual saves etc.

 Slaphead wrote:
I don't think making those type of weapons AP3 would be the way to go.

For me personally, I would like to see Terminator armour get 1+ added to their invulnerable save against plasma. So for a standard terminator it is a 5+ invun usually, but against plasma it goes to 4+ invun save.

This would make terminator armour more close to the fluff, as they were originally made to withstand plasma reactor radiation etc.

I would have a maximum of 3+ invun save so SS termies use either the 3+ from their SS or the 4+ from their armour (no reason for them to do that, but still). Characters in terminator armour with a Iron Halo giving them a 4+ save would become a 3+ invun save.

This is all ONLY against Plasma. All other weaponry has the usual saves etc.

Does this mean I can have a 2+ invulnerable against plasma with hammernators?

 Kain wrote:

Does this mean I can have a 2+ invulnerable against plasma with hammernators?

I think it would work best if they remain a 3+ with a Storm shield otherwise it could break the game. I guess it would be like if you had a choice between an armour save or an invun save to take against a wound, it would be whichever one was the best (terminator armour 4+ invun save or SS 3+ invun save)

SGTPozy wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Or riptides :-p.

I only said Dreadknight as MANY IoM players love to say how they die by plasma before they ever do anything and according to them Riptides are never in range anyway so it wouldn't matter against Riptides due to infinitely long tables.

You finally get it.

If we want that kind of specificity, we need stacking saves.

If we do stacking saves, we need armor save modifiers.

A number of threads spun up about this a while back in Proposed Rules.

I think it'd be awesome. However, it would slow down gameplay. That said, I think a 1500pt game done that way would be more fun than a 2000pt game done with current rules.

(I'll start a relevant thread in Proposed Rules.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I might have gone a little overboard on my suggestion. Find it here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/649176.page#7844069

"This "Xenos is OP and better than the Imperium" comments and train of thought is dead wrong and needs to stop. "

I'm not stopping. I shouldn't have to own 6+ expensive books and hundreds and hundreds of dollars of expensive models I don't want to own to not get shot off the table. My comparisons are single codex vs single codex, not cherry picking eight codices vs a single codex. IoM is only a single list for people with huge monetary resources, which is probably GWs train of thought.

Maybe you should just put me on ignore.

As for the OP, I have long maintained that plasma should be AP 3 and krak missiles should be AP 1. You know, that way, they are actually and anti-tank missile instead of just a crappy HP stripping weapon.