Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

it's no more an injustice than what Iyanden received. Or Biel Tan. Or Ulthwe. And far less than what Alaitoc received.

And besides, under most circumstances, Codex: Chaos Space Marines does a better job of representing Black Templars than any of the loyalist books.

Now I know you're a heretic.

Nope. I'm more anti-Chaos than you could ever imagine.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nope. I'm more anti-Chaos than you could ever imagine.

The diamond-cutters on your avatar suggests otherwise. Slaanesh is proud of you (the rock and roll, coke sniffing, motorboating side of him, anyway)

GW being GW I could see BT getting their own dex as long as GW felt they could make money off a separate book. At the current pace all armies will be updated soon to 7th edition - then what will GW do to make lots of money off all those rule books when they are done (good thing that GW is a model company and not a game company or the rules would be even more expensive). I wonder if 8th edition is looming on the horizon - then all the dexes can be redone in 1-2 years again!

I know it is a rather novel concept for Dakka, but how about instead of speculating on what will happen about an exclusion that is only speculated at this time, why not wait and see whether BT are actually excluded first when the new book is released?

Ducks -

Because speculation is fun!

 Skriker wrote:
I know it is a rather novel concept for Dakka, but how about instead of speculating on what will happen about an exclusion that is only speculated at this time, why not wait and see whether BT are actually excluded first when the new book is released?

Ducks -

"I don't understand the point of discussion boards." -Skriker 2015

I would bet money they remain, same with fists. Maybe GW would sell them as a supplement to make money, but that would be sad if you wanted to play BT from day 1 and fork out for 2 dexes!!! I hope it doesn't come to that.

Dark Angels on the other hand, watch that space, that will be interesting

Well I can see why they didnt make a new BT upgrade sprue, the existing one is awesome, and actually way better than these new upgrade sprues for UM, BA, and DA. So many more pieces, arms and even vehicle upgrades are available from the current edition of the BT upgrade.

And based on the current run of New armies, I doubt GW will go back and re-create a BT codex. They took the time to do Admech, Skitarii, Imperial Knights, and Harlequins before they decided to go and revive something from earlier editions *Cough*Sisters*Cough*.

I'd enjoy a BT codex, but at this point I don't see it happening. And to keep the BT range in the current SM codex just seems like the most reasonable expectation from GW at this point.

 Smokeydubbs wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I anticipate that Black Templars will continue to exist as a formation within Codex: Space Marines that allows Tactical SM to exchange their Bolters for BP & Chainsword, with a Chapter-specific formation bonus.

That would be a huge injustice to the largest of the Chapters. But it is par for GW.

DA and their "Successor Chapters" would like to have a word. Agreed, though. Given that they are splitting books up again, I would not be surprised if Black Templars end up in their own codex. I just worry that they won't have enough unique stuff to justify one.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Smokeydubbs wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I anticipate that Black Templars will continue to exist as a formation within Codex: Space Marines that allows Tactical SM to exchange their Bolters for BP & Chainsword, with a Chapter-specific formation bonus.

That would be a huge injustice to the largest of the Chapters. But it is par for GW.

DA and their "Successor Chapters" would like to have a word. Agreed, though. Given that they are splitting books up again, I would not be surprised if Black Templars end up in their own codex. I just worry that they won't have enough unique stuff to justify one.

Well Black Templars used to be the biggest - but with the frantic recons to justify Dark Angels keeping a individual codex they may now be bigger - as Dark Angels army owner I lament the recent crap (IMO) that's been churned out for them.

Pretty much all Chapters could be represented by a page or two of Chapter specific rules as has been discussed at length on many threads....

The fluff in the most recent Space marines Codex confirmed their good relations with the Sororitas (Yey!) but massively reduced the number of Crusades (boo!).

If they want to make BlackTemplars a "Codex worthy" army - they just make units up - sadly then we get total trash (IMO) like Logan's sleigh, the Dark Angels flyers (ok all the GW SM flyers) and the rest.

I'd rather see some love for the actual First Founding Chapters who are often for more diverse than those they single out as "oohhh soo Special" - but then so are the Imperial Guard regiments and Chaos Space marines but hey.............

Icculus wrote:Well I can see why they didnt make a new BT upgrade sprue, the existing one is awesome, and actually way better than these new upgrade sprues for UM, BA, and DA. So many more pieces, arms and even vehicle upgrades are available from the current edition of the BT upgrade.

I'd enjoy a BT codex, but at this point I don't see it happening. And to keep the BT range in the current SM codex just seems like the most reasonable expectation from GW at this point.

The BT sprue is actually too much - it's got HUGE vehicle bitz where there should be more heads, chests, and esp. BP/CCW pairs. Really, if each sprue had 10 heads, 10 chests, 10 BP/CCWs, 4 bolters, special weapons, power weapons, and a few vehicle bitz, it'd be perfect. I'm almost ashamed of how many BT infantry sprues and bitz I traded for, along with beakie heads... Almost. Not really. OK, not. Actually bragging.

I would not mind a BT Codex, but I'm not holding my breath. They're not that different from other SM/CSM, but with GW doing so many niche armies, I could see it happening a years or two from now, after the SM Codex has lost its novelty.
____

Mr Morden wrote:Pretty much all Chapters could be represented by a page or two of Chapter specific rules as has been discussed at length on many threads....

If they want to make Black Templars a "Codex worthy" army - they just make units up - sadly then we get total trash (IMO) like Logan's sleigh, the Dark Angels flyers (ok all the GW SM flyers) and the rest.

I'd rather see some love for the actual First Founding Chapters who are often for more diverse than those they single out as "oohhh soo Special" - but then so are the Imperial Guard regiments and Chaos Space marines but hey.............

For how much overlap exists with the SM Chapters, a page of Chapter-specific rules in C:SM is the best approach. That's basically a formation, when you get down to it. And really, we don't need multiple versions of the same things floating around.

The last thing we need is more niche items for the sake of being different. Like special Land Raiders or special Predators/Rhinos. That's just silly.

For a new Black Templar stand alone codex, you could go to town with unique things like;

- Return of the 3W Reclusiarch + an optional retinue of both Cenobite Servitors & Chaplain Novitiates.

- Give BT Assault Squads the option to trade out either their ccw or pistol for a Storm Shield.
Add in option to give 0-2 models a Power toy/fist as part of the special weapon upgrades.

- Remove the Attack Bike from the Bike Squad entry, and instead, have BT Bike Squads consist of 3-5 Space Marines + 0-5 Scout Bikers.
Keep Attack Bikes as their own unit entry.

- Allow Termies to mix Hammernators into the basic tactical versions.

- Make Sword Brethren into a similar styled unit as Wolf Guard, able to mix both shooty and/or assault options into the same squad.

- Relic vehicles.


And that's just off the top of my head... I'm sure there's plenty of other 'Teutonic Knights' themes to explore and fit into the army... Perhaps an elite unit of Bikers all armed with Power Lances to act as 'Errant Knights' or some such?!
Or else a specialist unit dedicated to hunting down and burning & killing those filthy, heretic witches?!

All of the above ideas are awesome. I'd also like to see a larger benefit to not being allowed to take pyskers.

A deny the witch on a 4+, or maybe dice generated specifically for denying the witch, an army wide hatred (psykers) or something along those lines.

I'd also like to see Vows come back. That was a really unique feature that made it possible to play a Black Templar force in a variety of ways.

 Icculus wrote:
All of the above ideas are awesome. I'd also like to see a larger benefit to not being allowed to take pyskers.

A deny the witch on a 4+, or maybe dice generated specifically for denying the witch, an army wide hatred (psykers) or something along those lines.

I'd also like to see Vows come back. That was a really unique feature that made it possible to play a Black Templar force in a variety of ways.

I'd prefer 2+, as to really stick it to the Eldar.

Experiment 626 wrote:
For a new Black Templar stand alone codex, you could go to town with unique things like;

- Return of the 3W Reclusiarch + an optional retinue of both Cenobite Servitors & Chaplain Novitiates.

- Give BT Assault Squads the option to trade out either their ccw or pistol for a Storm Shield.
Add in option to give 0-2 models a Power toy/fist as part of the special weapon upgrades.

- Remove the Attack Bike from the Bike Squad entry, and instead, have BT Bike Squads consist of 3-5 Space Marines + 0-5 Scout Bikers.
Keep Attack Bikes as their own unit entry.

- Allow Termies to mix Hammernators into the basic tactical versions.

- Make Sword Brethren into a similar styled unit as Wolf Guard, able to mix both shooty and/or assault options into the same squad.

- Relic vehicles.


And that's just off the top of my head... I'm sure there's plenty of other 'Teutonic Knights' themes to explore and fit into the army... Perhaps an elite unit of Bikers all armed with Power Lances to act as 'Errant Knights' or some such?!
Or else a specialist unit dedicated to hunting down and burning & killing those filthy, heretic witches?!

Termies could have the option of special two-handed power swords of some sort- always thought that would be pretty cool and crusader-y. Maybe combat shields for neophytes as an option as well.

If Codex: Space Marines is going to be available with limited edition Black Templars cover, as rumored, then I think it's pretty safe to assume that Black Templars are getting folded into Codex: Space Marines.

That's probably a good thing, as BT have a very high duplication with the regular Codex; they really just need to be able to take BP&CCW in their Tactical Squads, rather than folding Scouts, Tacticals, Assault Marines and Devastators into a single unit.

Well now the real question is: What happens to the BT HQ options? The Emperors Champion, Grimaldus, and Helbrecht are all figureheads of the Black Templar, but this last codex made them all nigh unplayable. Do you think they will scrap them in this new book?

If so, it will be pretty easy to just customize a generic Chapter Master and call him Helbrecht, and you can even use the original model. I have been using the Emperors Champion model to represent the Company Champion from the Honor Guard squad. So there really wouldnt be a big change there.

But it would hurt morale to lose characters.

Tell that to Brother Bethor...

I think we just wait and see when the book comes out.

Well it looks like the BT are still in the codex!!

Crusader Squads are still a thing.
Squads that suffer an unsaved wound from shooting now get Rage and Counter attack! So if you shoot them, it only makes them angry.
Emperors Champion is now S6 AP2 all the time

That's actually pretty good.

1. BT still exist.
2. BT have a thematic CC bonus.
3. BT can take Crusader squads

That pretty much meets or exceeds all expectations.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
That's actually pretty good.

1. BT still exist.
2. BT have a thematic CC bonus.
3. BT can take Crusader squads

That pretty much meets or exceeds all expectations.

Yeah, I'm really tempted to just play my Chaos Marines as BT chapter tactics, as there's really no point in using the actual Chaos codex anymore when I don't feel like dropping 50%+ of my pts into daemonic stuff/allies.

Never thought I'd ever turn into a 'codex hopper', but really, considering the buffs Loyalists are getting, Chaos Marines on their own are a complete and utter joke now.

The rage and counter attack thing is HUGE.

You'd better put some serious hurt on that squad that just got dumped out of their LRC - at least enough to mitigate the extra attack they all just got from you shooting them!

Chapter Tactics!

Black Templars
- Holy Crusaders
- the Lost Librarius
- Righteous Zeal


I wonder what the BT Formation will be.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Chapter Tactics!

Black Templars
- Holy Crusaders
- the Lost Librarius
- Righteous Zeal


I wonder what the BT Formation will be.

Unless someone is specifically hiding something, there isn't one.

Happy to see the Rage and Counterattack effects, and if the dread rumor is true, Ironclad dreads might be a thing for BTs.

So BT just get Chapter Tactics for FREE? That's even better.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
So BT just get Chapter Tactics for FREE? That's even better.

Not sure what your point is as all SM Chapters that have Tactics get them for free...

As opposed to having to field very specific groups of models to get the Chapter-specific bonuses.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As opposed to having to field very specific groups of models to get the Chapter-specific bonuses.

...the same way every other Chapter in the book works and has worked since 6E.