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Poly Ranger wrote:
8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

your math is way off. You didn't add in fnp and the assault sqaud doesn't get to reroll hits and wounds since the tide won't go to ground due to most likely being fearless. (Edited)


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Math is closer to 38 dead orks then the orks swing back at WS5 (lukky stikk)

Then they get a free d6 move before their 1st turn .....


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Unless of course the tide has a zoid shield Gen as well then the marines shooting does nothing unless they brought multi meltas.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

your math is way off. You didn't add in fnp and the assault sqaud doesn't get to reroll hits and wounds since the tide won't go to ground due to most likely being fearless. (Edited)


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Math is closer to 38 dead orks then the orks swing back at WS5 (lukky stikk)

Then they get a free d6 move before their 1st turn .....


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Unless of course the tide has a zoid shield Gen as well then the marines shooting does nothing unless they brought multi meltas.

Bahaha you shut him down. I also noticed he didn't factor in fnp. Nor did he factor in possibility of kff or mff. Or as you said, void. This guy, thinking marines actually beat our orkz. No ideaz he has.

Hilariously, a single Catacomb Command Barge can take on this entire formation and win. No means guaranteed, but definitely not impossible either. Assuming grav on the Devs and flamers on the Asses, that's 1,83 glancing hits (1,22 if at night) in the shooting phase. In the assualt phase the only meaningful attacks come from powerfists and eviscerators, and the Overlord can take challenge and kill one of the sergeants. A single eviscerator Marine has two attacks, hitting on 4+ and glancing on 5+ (on 2D6), so it's perfectly possible that he'll get zero or no damage in. Since the Barge pretty much ignores every damage result short of Explodes!, if he does get a pen in, he'll still need a 5+ if the Devs fell short. Basically, to reliably kill a Catacomb Command Barge, the Space Marine player has to deep strike just right, and hit it with all four units.

Edit: Miscalculated! Used four grav-cannons, not eight. Well, two Barges then.

Edit #2: No, completely wrong again. 24 shots, 16 hits, 4,88 glances, 2,44 hull points, or 1,63 at night. Reasonably chances of Barge surviving the shooting phase.

Okapi wrote:
Hilariously, a single Catacomb Command Barge can take on this entire formation and win. No means guaranteed, but definitely not impossible either. Assuming grav on the Devs and flamers on the Asses, that's 1,83 glancing hits (1,22 if at night) in the shooting phase. In the assualt phase the only meaningful attacks come from powerfists and eviscerators, and the Overlord can take challenge and kill one of the sergeants. A single eviscerator Marine has two attacks, hitting on 4+ and glancing on 5+ (on 2D6), so it's perfectly possible that he'll get zero or no damage in. Since the Barge pretty much ignores every damage result short of Explodes!, if he does get a pen in, he'll still need a 5+ if the Devs fell short. Basically, to reliably kill a Catacomb Command Barge, the Space Marine player has to deep strike just right, and hit it with all four units.

A grav shot has an 8/9th chance to hit (assume rerolls on that first turn from the cherub), 11/36ths chance to immobilize (grav amp reroll) 1/2 chance to bypass jink. So we're looking at: 7.36 average shots to do damage. 22 shots on average should be 3 damage results. Is the barge immune to immobilize?

Granted if you can get 8 grav cannons to focus on a single target, that's a win.

My Guard army already had Coteaz sitting in a blob of 50 Guardsmen. So. That worked out.

Mavnas wrote:
A grav shot has an 8/9th chance to hit (assume rerolls on that first turn from the cherub), 11/36ths chance to immobilize (grav amp reroll) 1/2 chance to bypass jink. So we're looking at: 7.36 average shots to do damage. 22 shots on average should be 3 damage results. Is the barge immune to immobilize?

Granted if you can get 8 grav cannons to focus on a single target, that's a win.

It's immune to immobilized, yes, downgrading it to stunned, which it's also immune to. What cherub?

For 5 points they buy an upgrade that lets them re-roll to hit one turn per game. I imagine devs trying to do a massive alpha strike would use it turn 1.

But really going from 2/3 -> 8/9th is minor compared to the grav amp rerolls on the pen roll which nearly doubles the effectiveness.


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Grav amps are the things that make Grav Cannons so much better than grav guns, because things that would be awful targets for the guns, are mediocre targets for the cannons.

Ah, I see. Makes sense. Even with that though, they'll still need all 24 shots to take down the Barge.

Looks like wraiths just got better. They're not going to care about getting shot at by long range dev squads nor will they care about being assaulted by girls wearing blue dresses... if I had to face this formation I'd be CADding up three max'd units of wraiths and killing marines as usual.

Another fun counter would be Striking Scorpions in cover. 2+ save, so near grav-immunity, 3+ save, so well protected against flamers, decent overwatch with potential AP2, and should wipe the floor with Assault Marines in close combat. Sit there for a turn, wait for the pods to drop, and bring on the scatter lasers, d-scythes and psychic shrieks after the alpha strike.

Okapi, the Devs get relentless on the turn they arrive, so that'd be 40 shots, not 24.

Also, with UM CT they'll re-roll to hit.

Add a character with an auspex, and your Scorpions are pretty screwed too.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

your math is way off. You didn't add in fnp and the assault sqaud doesn't get to reroll hits and wounds since the tide won't go to ground due to most likely being fearless. (Edited)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Math is closer to 38 dead orks then the orks swing back at WS5 (lukky stikk)

Then they get a free d6 move before their 1st turn .....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless of course the tide has a zoid shield Gen as well then the marines shooting does nothing unless they brought multi meltas.

You are right, I completely missed fnp and fearless, which both dramatically affect the maths. So it seems green tide need not be so worried.


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Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

your math is way off. You didn't add in fnp and the assault sqaud doesn't get to reroll hits and wounds since the tide won't go to ground due to most likely being fearless. (Edited)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Math is closer to 38 dead orks then the orks swing back at WS5 (lukky stikk)

Then they get a free d6 move before their 1st turn .....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless of course the tide has a zoid shield Gen as well then the marines shooting does nothing unless they brought multi meltas.

Bahaha you shut him down. I also noticed he didn't factor in fnp. Nor did he factor in possibility of kff or mff. Or as you said, void. This guy, thinking marines actually beat our orkz. No ideaz he has.

Wow. Constructive...

This far in my Guard army is just dreading this (Its based off WW2 British and Wheremacht units and organisation). So far I have pretty much blobbed my tanks into a core and bubble wrapped them with veteran squads. (No demolitions sadly - I still need to acquire some Engineers for each side)
The Infantry absorb the worst of the attacks and then the tanks give everything they've got. Its a risky move but in all honesty its the best one I have. With a bit of luck I will be able to kill enough to allow my surviving Infantry to weather the storm on the next turn and my tanks the chance to survive the inevitable shitstorm of AT fire that will be coming there way.

 master of ordinance wrote:
This far in my Guard army is just dreading this (Its based off WW2 British and Wheremacht units and organisation). So far I have pretty much blobbed my tanks into a core and bubble wrapped them with veteran squads. (No demolitions sadly - I still need to acquire some Engineers for each side)
The Infantry absorb the worst of the attacks and then the tanks give everything they've got. Its a risky move but in all honesty its the best one I have. With a bit of luck I will be able to kill enough to allow my surviving Infantry to weather the storm on the next turn and my tanks the chance to survive the inevitable shitstorm of AT fire that will be coming there way.

Actually I think MSU guard/hoard armies are the way forward. What does it matter if he assaults and kills two squads of ten guys and suppresses two squads of ten riflemen? You're not going to care. Bubble wrapping your tanks will help so he can't destroy them, and his supression rules won't work vs vehicles. So then just go and kill him on your turn.

I think if you are wanting to counter the skyhammer, you would need multiple interceptor. Tau Riptides and broadsides come to mind. You can count on having first turn to set up a counter.

 Thud wrote:
Okapi, the Devs get relentless on the turn they arrive, so that'd be 40 shots, not 24.

Also, with UM CT they'll re-roll to hit.

Add a character with an auspex, and your Scorpions are pretty screwed too.

I missed the bit about relentless. In that case the Devs on average inflict 10,6 wounds on forest Scorpions, but still only 5,3 on ruin Scorpions. In other words, either absorb the entire alpha strike and die, or absorb it and massacre the Devs next turn. 210 points well spent either way.

Guard has been sucking in performance in high level play regardless. Some of best way to use guard nowadays are Aliied drop pod transports, Air Guard Scions, Foot guard blobs with a DA Lib for the force field.

If you use Air Guard, just reserve everything and go second.

Why would anything but Boltgun half of a Dev squad shoot at the Scorps?

More than 50% chance to GtG. Probably not killing a Scorp, but even if they aren't pinned, the SMs are the only thing they can assault. So, if things go perfect for the Scorps, they get to assault a 70pt squad with a min 85? points? And at 5-man naked vs 5-man naked, they aren't going to win by a lot. Add 40pts for Claw + Exarch, and he kills something like 2 Marines? Still not wiping the squad.

So Scorpions aren't a great counter. Probably pinned, but even if not, they eat something cheaper than they are. Then don't have shrouding.


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Also, if they come in first turn, if they are first player, Scorpions can't assault yet anyways.

If you had an army built of Scorpions, that might mean something. Otherwise, they'll blow up other targets.

Chaos daemons and csm have their crazy new sand prince whenever he declares his sky hammer he must delay by one turn as all reserves the enemy deploys come on one turn late as I recall correctly. And that gives you time to prepare and reorganize yourself to handle the blow.

And attack you know is coming is an attack you can micromanage. Around, or make troubling to handle

For dark Angels it's probably going to be deredeo dreadnaughts, with an interrogator chaplain you get two of them and standing still means they have interceptor. When they pod to earth you can shoot down two pods and that will lower their combat effectiveness by half.

And with deathwing terminators and Corvus hammer armed black Knights as our staple units it's going to be tough to find targets to charge into melee with. This problem also effects the space wolves, how does one find a target in an army filled with units that eat assault marines for lunch.

Sky hammer is probably going to work best against guardsmen, orks, tyranids, and dark eldar. I could honestly seeing it basically auto crump dark eldar armies like paper with a successful drop of your four pods.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The drop pods for the Devastators also count towards the Drop Pod Assualt rule, meaning it can play havoc with any other podded squads.

Pretty sure these don't count towards DPA. Can anyone confirm/deny?

So you don't have to keep wondering.

Cheers... Yeah, so your other pods come down as planned.

It's a brutal formation. But hey, Decurions and Scatbikes...

Bharring wrote:
Why would anything but Boltgun half of a Dev squad shoot at the Scorps?

More than 50% chance to GtG. Probably not killing a Scorp, but even if they aren't pinned, the SMs are the only thing they can assault. So, if things go perfect for the Scorps, they get to assault a 70pt squad with a min 85? points? And at 5-man naked vs 5-man naked, they aren't going to win by a lot. Add 40pts for Claw + Exarch, and he kills something like 2 Marines? Still not wiping the squad.

So Scorpions aren't a great counter. Probably pinned, but even if not, they eat something cheaper than they are. Then don't have shrouding.


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Also, if they come in first turn, if they are first player, Scorpions can't assault yet anyways.

If you had an army built of Scorpions, that might mean something. Otherwise, they'll blow up other targets.

There are no other targets if the Eldar player simply reserves it all. The formation can't deal with two units of Scorpions, and with an Autarch the Eldar player has pretty decent control of his reserves. They aren't "probably pinned" either, at Ld9 with a re-roll. And why wouldn't they assault the grav-Devs? In any case, the point is to have the Space Marine player blow his expensive alpha strike on a couple of units he can't kill anyway. When the Guardians, Windriders, Warp Spiders and tanks move on from reserves those Assault Marines and Devastators won't last a turn.

I think tau has the best chance to counter this. Since they can take multiple units that can intercept. I take 2 riptides and 2x 3 man units of missile broadsides. Everyone has early warning override system. Doesn't matter if you go second or first. The sky hammer comes down and you intercept every marine that gets out. skyhammer does nothing.

Okapi wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Why would anything but Boltgun half of a Dev squad shoot at the Scorps?

More than 50% chance to GtG. Probably not killing a Scorp, but even if they aren't pinned, the SMs are the only thing they can assault. So, if things go perfect for the Scorps, they get to assault a 70pt squad with a min 85? points? And at 5-man naked vs 5-man naked, they aren't going to win by a lot. Add 40pts for Claw + Exarch, and he kills something like 2 Marines? Still not wiping the squad.

So Scorpions aren't a great counter. Probably pinned, but even if not, they eat something cheaper than they are. Then don't have shrouding.


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Also, if they come in first turn, if they are first player, Scorpions can't assault yet anyways.

If you had an army built of Scorpions, that might mean something. Otherwise, they'll blow up other targets.

There are no other targets if the Eldar player simply reserves it all. The formation can't deal with two units of Scorpions, and with an Autarch the Eldar player has pretty decent control of his reserves. They aren't "probably pinned" either, at Ld9 with a re-roll. And why wouldn't they assault the grav-Devs? In any case, the point is to have the Space Marine player blow his expensive alpha strike on a couple of units he can't kill anyway. When the Guardians, Windriders, Warp Spiders and tanks move on from reserves those Assault Marines and Devastators won't last a turn.

There are a couple of problems with your analysis, though.

If you (Eldar) go first and deploy nothing, except for two infiltrating units of Scorpions, the Marine player will have the formation come in on turn one and table you. Remember that those Scorpions will be facing the entire Marine army, not just the formation. And if you've gone for two full units of Scorpions, your army isn't exactly rock hard, so you'll struggle against most top armies.

If you go second, the Marine player will have to choose which turn to deploy the Pods without knowing your deployment. If he goes turn one and you only deploy the Scorpions, it's the same story. If you deploy more stuff he'll get juicier targets and probably kill everything before your reserves come in, making you rely on your beta strike going off perfectly. If he goes for turn two deployment, you stand a better chance, since you get to take out some of his support, and get your buffs up, but at this point you're hoping for your opponent to screw up. Hardly the most reliable strategy.

I'm not saying the formation is going to crush everything in its path, but if you think it's no big deal, you'll be in for a rude awakening once you face off against one piloted by a decent player.

Inquisitor Coteaz paired with 30 guardsmen I feel would do a decent amount of damage to anything that drops in range.

So, if CWE play reserve-heavy sans Scorps, who infiltrate, SM can go first or second.

If he goes first, kill the Scorpions. Two turns of shooting/assaulting before the Scorpions can assault, or Reserves come in. And ASM can perform vs Scorpions in Assault if you concentrate them (17ppm vs 17ppm Scorpions, wound on 3s vs wound on 4s). Exarch can make it harder, but that's +40pts for a model that'll kill 2-3 guys a turn. Good, but two ASM squads should take out a Scorpion squad each turn. And after the first, the Devs can charge if they really want to.

Two full turns of both CC and shooting is not a good thing for a T3 unit, even if they're ha 2+ cover and 3+ armor, they aren't going to do well.

If SM goes second, he'll put a cheap unit on the table that won't die to Scorpion pistols, then come in after your reserves T2, blowing up whatever he wants.

LD9 vs 3d6 is failing most of the time. Where are Scorpions getting the reroll from?

If SM come in T1, GtG'ing them is good, but not necessary. Scorpions cannot charge T1.

As for why not charge the HW devs? Because the SM player should put the naked 5man Combat Squad in front of a Scorpion squad if he lacks the resources to at least tie it up.

Also, an Autarch can't start in a unit of Scorpions. So if it starts on the table, its probably dead.

Skitari Maniple.
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× plasma caliver; + 1 Vanguard Alpha (Warlord)
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha
9 Skitarii Vanguard: omnispex; 3× arc rifle; + 1 Vanguard Alpha

Flesh Tearer.
Sanguinary Priest: chainsword; auspex

4 Tactical Marines: + 1 Space Marine Sergeant
• Drop Pod

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Skyhammer.
10 Assault Marines: 2× flamer
5 Assault Marines: 2× flamer

10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod
10 Devastator Marines: 4x grav-cannon
•Drop Pod

40 points left. All marines combat squaded. Null deployment.
6 pods( skitari+dev) and 15 ASM, coming in.


How do we actually stop something like this aside from going 2nd with our own null deployment. Even giving all interceptor on a tau hardly seems enough.


-------
Decurion with wraithstar and rezorb or chaos daemons seems to be only answer i can think off.

Null lol, GK null deployment. Nemesis strike force. The grav will enjoy shooting the termies though.

With *TWO* Skyhammers, of course!

Or a full IK army. Would they survive the Grav? Reroll to glance, but no double-HP loss from Immobilize results.