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Just put them in bunkers or drop pods. With 2 separate stars, 3 cents is probably enough, so you can put 3 cents in each pod, then the psykers in separate pods. 4 Pods so you split the star evenly, or 5 I guess if you want to drop a tac squad in one, too. Then put the locator beacons on the drop pods to give some safe areas to Gate to

To build on the previous issues mentioned. Ignoring cover and adding H+R to a Dev Cent Star....

Could a small allied detachment of SoB with Celestine and Dominions answer both of these?

H+R from Celestine and ignore cover melta in a pod with dominions.

DayOne916247 wrote:
Cypher is forgeworld? Unfamiliar with him honestly

Cypher is a dataslate character, just like Be'lakor, that you can add to any Imperial army with the exception of Dark Angels. You can even add him to Chaos Space Marines. You can purchase the dataslate from GW's Black Library. He's got a number of special rules but his two most useful ones is that he has Shroud (which confers to the unit he is with) and Hit-&-Run.

 The Shrike wrote:
Remember, lists have to compensate for the entire meta. Tau are going to get updated SOON. And then ignore cover will be back in the meta in a big enough way that RW will fall back to RPS status.

Tau already has enough cover-ignoring firepower - markerlights, SMS, buffmander. I don't see them getting more with the new codex. It is already a RPS matchup with RW and of all the armies, I feel that Tau is the best counter matchup to RW.

 The Shrike wrote:
Remember, lists have to compensate for the entire meta. Tau are going to get updated SOON. And then ignore cover will be back in the meta in a big enough way that RW will fall back to RPS status.

"Tau already has enough cover-ignoring firepower - markerlights, SMS, buffmander. I don't see them getting more with the new codex. It is already a RPS matchup with RW and of all the armies, I feel that Tau is the best counter matchup to RW."

Crusade wrote:
To build on the previous issues mentioned. Ignoring cover and adding H+R to a Dev Cent Star....

Could a small allied detachment of SoB with Celestine and Dominions answer both of these?

H+R from Celestine and ignore cover melta in a pod with dominions.

While I like Celestine, I don't think Dominions are a viable solution as a cover-ignoring unit. They are basically a one-and-done unit. Come in, use their faith just once (and assuming they pass their LD test) and then they get massacred. Basically, they are good against 1 unit like a tank, but they aren't great against an army with re-rollable cover like Ravenwing. For more "long-term" cover-ignoring firepower, I would rather consider Legion of the Damned. They are more resilient to RW Black Knight shooting thanks to their 3++ and they can shoot every turn with Ignore Cover as opposed to just once like the Dominions.

So I changed the list around for a couple reasons... One, I fit in a stormtalon to add another threat and to have at least some air support, the other was to move tiggy to the main CAD in order to benefit from reserve rerolls in case i wanted to do that (minor but why not), the other was to fit the two rhinos to use as walls for skyhammer match ups (one in gk side to have FA slots)
So the list looks like this now:

Libby conclave:
2 lvl two Libby's
1 lvl two termie Libby with stormbolter (wysiwyg model)

SM CAD:
1 tiggy
2 five man bolter scouts
1 rhino (fast attack)
1 droppod (fast attack)
1 stormtalon w skyhammer
2 three man grav cent, 1 missile, sergeant has missile / scope

GK NSF:
1 lvl three Libby with book
1 five man strike squad
1 rhino
1 Draigo

Now my biggest concern is the minimum squads of centurians for wound saturation and number of shots during the game. Might be a fair trade off in order to live through skyhammer bs (rhino walls and scout bubble wrap) but it does make each centstar weaker and there is still the chance of not getting gate with the gk Libby for the second centstar, in which case it goes kamikaze in the pod and that really could suck but honestly that's only 20% chance of missing gate and it still pops at least one enemy unit (not to mention could still have invis)

This version seems more flexible with the stormtalon and doesn't just bend over for one list / formation so that's good but like I said the minimum cents in the centstar is troubling... Thoughts? Ideas on further changes to both deal with skyhammer but also not hurt other list matchups?

 The Shrike wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:
Remember, lists have to compensate for the entire meta. Tau are going to get updated SOON. And then ignore cover will be back in the meta in a big enough way that RW will fall back to RPS status.

"Tau already has enough cover-ignoring firepower - markerlights, SMS, buffmander. I don't see them getting more with the new codex. It is already a RPS matchup with RW and of all the armies, I feel that Tau is the best counter matchup to RW."

Oh i'm not saying they'll get more, in fact, it will probably get more expensive in marker support to ignore cover. However, I bet Tau will be good enough that their factional percentage at GTs will increase; hence canceling out armies like RW overly dependent on cover. Not saying RW won't be competitive in a little "c" sense. Doubt they'll win GTs as a primary detachment.

I'm actually dreading how powerful the new Tau would be, considering the trend that Eldar, Space Marines and Dark Angels went. However, I don't believe the basic nature of the codex will change all that much. Yes, some units will no doubt get better, but I believe that Tau will still be vulnerable to grav and enemy scouting/drop podding alpha-strikes as they are currently. Tau as they currently are is such a RPS army already. I really don't see that changing at all with their next release.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DayOne916247 wrote:
So I changed the list around for a couple reasons... One, I fit in a stormtalon to add another threat and to have at least some air support, the other was to move tiggy to the main CAD in order to benefit from reserve rerolls in case i wanted to do that (minor but why not), the other was to fit the two rhinos to use as walls for skyhammer match ups (one in gk side to have FA slots)
So the list looks like this now:

Libby conclave:
2 lvl two Libby's
1 lvl two termie Libby with stormbolter (wysiwyg model)

SM CAD:
1 tiggy
2 five man bolter scouts
1 rhino (fast attack)
1 droppod (fast attack)
1 stormtalon w skyhammer
2 three man grav cent, 1 missile, sergeant has missile / scope

GK NSF:
1 lvl three Libby with book
1 five man strike squad
1 rhino
1 Draigo

Now my biggest concern is the minimum squads of centurians for wound saturation and number of shots during the game. Might be a fair trade off in order to live through skyhammer bs (rhino walls and scout bubble wrap) but it does make each centstar weaker and there is still the chance of not getting gate with the gk Libby for the second centstar, in which case it goes kamikaze in the pod and that really could suck but honestly that's only 20% chance of missing gate and it still pops at least one enemy unit (not to mention could still have invis)

This version seems more flexible with the stormtalon and doesn't just bend over for one list / formation so that's good but like I said the minimum cents in the centstar is troubling... Thoughts? Ideas on further changes to both deal with skyhammer but also not hurt other list matchups?

Here are my recommendations:

1. Include at least auspexes for 2 of your characters.

2. Drop missiles and just run hurricane bolters instead. This way, you can almost afford another Centurion and you can better take advantage of Tigurius' Storm of Fire Warlord trait for rending bolters.

3. 1 talon isn't going to do jack to your anti-air woes. You might as well drop it in favor of better ground forces.

4. The book isn't necessary on the GK Librarian, especially if you need the points. However, I do recommend you give him the Daemonhammer. I've actually used mine a lot in close-combat.

5. I feel that the number of librarians you have in your army is just over-kill. The core problem of your army isn't psychic powers. Rather, it is boots on the table.

6. Rhino-blocking isn't the solution, especially against enemy drop pods.

Tau's competitive strength will rest almost solely on the cost of Interceptor.

Here is an example of a list that I would run. The emphasis isn't on psychic powers. Rather, it is on lots of scoring and a distributed threat used to alpha-strike the opponent. I don't care about Skyhammer because I can just null-deploy. Drop my centurions on T1 if I'm going 2nd or drop them later if I am going 1st.


1850 White Scars:

Librarian - Lvl 2, Auspex, Meltabombs
Librarian - Lvl 2, Auspex, Meltabombs

5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Combi-melta, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Combi-melta, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Tacticals - Gravgun, Combi-grav, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters
3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters
3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters

Inquisition Allies:

Coteaz (feel free to swap him out for a 3rd Librarian and move 1 troops to the allies section if you want)

RW will simply overrun Tau. They can't kill enough fast enough.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
RW will simply overrun Tau. They can't kill enough fast enough.

On the contrary, Tau is actually one of the worst matchups for Ravenwing because they are the army best at ignoring cover.

Get a bunker with void shield + Comms for the marker drones. Screen out scouting bikers with infiltrating kroots. Reserve any unit that cannot hide. Then pick off bikers when the Tau units come in from reserves.

Now that is in the case Ravenwing goes first. If Tau goes first, it could be really bad for Ravenwing.

You know what's really scary for RW? A full-blown Farsight-bomb coming in from reserves.

Overall, whoever has 1st turn has the advantage in Tau-vs-RW.

 jy2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ravenwing is going to destroy gladius. To the extent gladius isn't going to show up to tournaments. I wouldn't worry about gladius.
Marine lists are going to be more focused on hard hitting alphas from skyhammer and CAD with ultra marines running tiggy with grav devs.

Problem is - MSU don't gain much from libbies because their firepower and total wounds/defense is so low per squad. Marine have almost no other method to ignore cover - and without ignore cover - you can't beat raven wing. Want to see how fast 25 MSU can disappear when they cant kill anything? watch that matchup.

Skyhammer + CAD also wrecks galdius - the alpha alone I calculate can kill 8 razorbacks with decent rolls. Leaving you fighting an army of bolter marines fighting heavily armed marines.

I beg to differ.

My Battle Company runs about 400-pts of free transports as well as 2x3 units of centurions in drop pods. And I put characters with Auspexes in them. I've seen some BC's run Legion of the Damned to complement them as well. There are ways for marines to ignore cover. The Gladius isn't dead against Ravenwing.

Gotta get pretty close to use an auspex - means you are getting auto charged by something the next turn and you can't overwatch with cents...You could get lucky and roll ignore cover or invis with your libs but the odds of that aren't that great. Seems like a pretty expensive suicide squad - hands the enemy slay the warlord and your two toughest squads so you can take 30 grav shots. Could work some games but I wouln't call it the strongest torney build marines can put out right now.
I've considered running a 10 man unit of plasma LOTD. Problem is they don't start on the board - so it's a pretty expensive reserve squad.

My go to ignore cover option is tiggy with sterngard. Automatic ignore cover rending bolters. Tiggy has the best chance to get the spells you want too.

 jy2 wrote:
Here is an example of a list that I would run. The emphasis isn't on psychic powers. Rather, it is on lots of scoring and a distributed threat used to alpha-strike the opponent. I don't care about Skyhammer because I can just null-deploy. Drop my centurions on T1 if I'm going 2nd or drop them later if I am going 1st.


1850 White Scars:

Librarian - Lvl 2, Auspex, Meltabombs
Librarian - Lvl 2, Auspex, Meltabombs

5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Combi-melta, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Combi-melta, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Tacticals - Gravgun, Combi-grav, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters
3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters
3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters

Inquisition Allies:

Coteaz (feel free to swap him out for a 3rd Librarian and move 1 troops to the allies section if you want)

Problem here is that you're essentially playing a different army / not using centstar... The gk Libby with the book is there for the 4/6 roll of gate to let the second star bounce around the table (first one from Draigo)
The number of Libby's is for rolling for invis for the second centstar as well... Through playtesting four games I've hit both powers for the second centstar every game so they are necessary

I do agree with the stormtalon not being enough air support and considering I could drop that and gain a centurion and still have points I think that's worth it late game once the censtar starts taking random wounds

The rhinos are simply there to counter skyhammer with the scouts
Even if skyhammer combat squads the devastators they only hit four targets so 2 rhinos and 2 scout squads max... They almost certainly wipe those units sure but besides first blood who cares?
The assault squads still charge the centstars but they can hold their own against that many attacks, especially with Draigo and Libby's in each squad respectively

In games that it's not skyhammer I can still use the rhinos to run around for objectives or shuttles for scouts or even mobile cover depending on circumstances so they aren't a complete waste

 jy2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
RW will simply overrun Tau. They can't kill enough fast enough.

On the contrary, Tau is actually one of the worst matchups for Ravenwing because they are the army best at ignoring cover.

Get a bunker with void shield + Comms for the marker drones. Screen out scouting bikers with infiltrating kroots. Reserve any unit that cannot hide. Then pick off bikers when the Tau units come in from reserves.

Now that is in the case Ravenwing goes first. If Tau goes first, it could be really bad for Ravenwing.

You know what's really scary for RW? A full-blown Farsight-bomb coming in from reserves.

Overall, whoever has 1st turn has the advantage in Tau-vs-RW.

This isn't at all true. Tau simple can not keep their ignore cover options alive long enough for them to make a difference. Pathfinders - meet wirlwinds and LS. Skyrays? Heres 10 missles to the face. Drones? Ain't nobody got drones. Farsite bomb? Meet interceptor. It sounds like tau would be great in practice but RW easily rolls the tau. Other armies get pounded for ignoring hard hitting tau models to go for MSU of pathfinders and the like - RW get rewarded with near invulnerability for doing so.

 jy2 wrote:
Here is an example of a list that I would run. The emphasis isn't on psychic powers. Rather, it is on lots of scoring and a distributed threat used to alpha-strike the opponent. I don't care about Skyhammer because I can just null-deploy. Drop my centurions on T1 if I'm going 2nd or drop them later if I am going 1st.


1850 White Scars:

Librarian - Lvl 2, Auspex, Meltabombs
Librarian - Lvl 2, Auspex, Meltabombs

5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Combi-melta, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Combi-melta, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Tacticals - Gravgun, Combi-grav, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters
3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters
3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters

Inquisition Allies:

Coteaz (feel free to swap him out for a 3rd Librarian and move 1 troops to the allies section if you want)

jy2,

Based on this list, would it be benefit you to run the 3x scouts in the new formation? I've been pondering turn 1 precision strikes off of the land speeder storms/scouts themselves? It'd also provide obj camping scouts free stealth.

Actually on that note, Turn 1 precision strikes off the new str 4 ceberus launcher could be interesting.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ravenwing is going to destroy gladius. To the extent gladius isn't going to show up to tournaments. I wouldn't worry about gladius.
Marine lists are going to be more focused on hard hitting alphas from skyhammer and CAD with ultra marines running tiggy with grav devs.

Problem is - MSU don't gain much from libbies because their firepower and total wounds/defense is so low per squad. Marine have almost no other method to ignore cover - and without ignore cover - you can't beat raven wing. Want to see how fast 25 MSU can disappear when they cant kill anything? watch that matchup.

Skyhammer + CAD also wrecks galdius - the alpha alone I calculate can kill 8 razorbacks with decent rolls. Leaving you fighting an army of bolter marines fighting heavily armed marines.

I beg to differ.

My Battle Company runs about 400-pts of free transports as well as 2x3 units of centurions in drop pods. And I put characters with Auspexes in them. I've seen some BC's run Legion of the Damned to complement them as well. There are ways for marines to ignore cover. The Gladius isn't dead against Ravenwing.

Gotta get pretty close to use an auspex - means you are getting auto charged by something the next turn and you can't overwatch with cents...You could get lucky and roll ignore cover or invis with your libs but the odds of that aren't that great. Seems like a pretty expensive suicide squad - hands the enemy slay the warlord and your two toughest squads so you can take 30 grav shots. Could work some games but I wouln't call it the strongest torney build marines can put out right now.
I've considered running a 10 man unit of plasma LOTD. Problem is they don't start on the board - so it's a pretty expensive reserve squad.

My go to ignore cover option is tiggy with sterngard. Automatic ignore cover rending bolters. Tiggy has the best chance to get the spells you want too.

Getting Auspex into range isn't a problem when they're in drop pods and can still disembark 6" from the pod.

BTW, the list doesn't really rely on Centurions for the win. Rather, it relies on tons of ObSec bodies that you have to shift off of objectives (unless you're playing Kill Points). The centurions are just "distraction" units. Dangerous yet just a distraction unit after all. You may spend 2-3 turns killing them but by then, my ObSec bodies will be firmly entrenched onto the objectives. BTW, I don't have to put my Warlord with the centurions:


1850 White Scars Battle Company

Captain - Storm Shield, Auspex, Meltabombs
Chaplain - Auspex

5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Meltabombs
Razorback
5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Meltabombs
Razorback
5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Meltabombs
Razorback
5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Meltabombs
Razorback
5x Tacticals - Gravgun, Meltabombs
Drop Pod
5x Tacticals - Gravgun, Meltabombs
Drop Pod
5x Assault Squad - 2x Flamers, Meltabombs
Drop Pod
5x Assault Squad - 2x Flamers, Meltabombs
Drop Pod
3x Devastator Centurions - Grav, Omni, Hurricane Bolters
3x Devastator Centurions - Grav, Omni, Hurricane Bolters

5x Scouts
5x Scouts
5x Scouts

Space Marine CAD:

Librarian - Lvl 2, Auspex, Meltabombs

5x Scouts - Snipers
5x Scouts - Snipers

Drop Pod
Drop Pod





Automatically Appended Next Post:

DayOne916247 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Here is an example of a list that I would run. The emphasis isn't on psychic powers. Rather, it is on lots of scoring and a distributed threat used to alpha-strike the opponent. I don't care about Skyhammer because I can just null-deploy. Drop my centurions on T1 if I'm going 2nd or drop them later if I am going 1st.

Spoiler:

1850 White Scars:

Librarian - Lvl 2, Auspex, Meltabombs
Librarian - Lvl 2, Auspex, Meltabombs

5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Combi-melta, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Combi-melta, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Tacticals - Gravgun, Combi-grav, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters
3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters
3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters

Inquisition Allies:

Coteaz (feel free to swap him out for a 3rd Librarian and move 1 troops to the allies section if you want)

Problem here is that you're essentially playing a different army / not using centstar... The gk Libby with the book is there for the 4/6 roll of gate to let the second star bounce around the table (first one from Draigo)
The number of Libby's is for rolling for invis for the second centstar as well... Through playtesting four games I've hit both powers for the second centstar every game so they are necessary

I do agree with the stormtalon not being enough air support and considering I could drop that and gain a centurion and still have points I think that's worth it late game once the censtar starts taking random wounds

The rhinos are simply there to counter skyhammer with the scouts
Even if skyhammer combat squads the devastators they only hit four targets so 2 rhinos and 2 scout squads max... They almost certainly wipe those units sure but besides first blood who cares?
The assault squads still charge the centstars but they can hold their own against that many attacks, especially with Draigo and Libby's in each squad respectively

In games that it's not skyhammer I can still use the rhinos to run around for objectives or shuttles for scouts or even mobile cover depending on circumstances so they aren't a complete waste

Fair enough. I am suggesting that running dual centstars isn't all that great because the supporting cast are just too lacking, but if you are really set on running it, then that's fine. If you are set on running the Conclave as well as GK allies, then there really isn't much wiggle room in terms of trying to reduce the character count in order to bump up the supporting units.

Makes sense and I see your points
Thanks for all the comments

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
RW will simply overrun Tau. They can't kill enough fast enough.

On the contrary, Tau is actually one of the worst matchups for Ravenwing because they are the army best at ignoring cover.

Get a bunker with void shield + Comms for the marker drones. Screen out scouting bikers with infiltrating kroots. Reserve any unit that cannot hide. Then pick off bikers when the Tau units come in from reserves.

Now that is in the case Ravenwing goes first. If Tau goes first, it could be really bad for Ravenwing.

You know what's really scary for RW? A full-blown Farsight-bomb coming in from reserves.

Overall, whoever has 1st turn has the advantage in Tau-vs-RW.

This isn't at all true. Tau simple can not keep their ignore cover options alive long enough for them to make a difference. Pathfinders - meet wirlwinds and LS. Skyrays? Heres 10 missles to the face. Drones? Ain't nobody got drones. Farsite bomb? Meet interceptor. It sounds like tau would be great in practice but RW easily rolls the tau. Other armies get pounded for ignoring hard hitting tau models to go for MSU of pathfinders and the like - RW get rewarded with near invulnerability for doing so.

Most RW lists will run Black Knights with plasma talons. They may run 1 or 2 melta-bike squadron, but the majority of the firepower will be plasma. That won't do much to AV14 with 1 void shield, especially if you screen out his meltas with infiltrating kroot. All you need to is for the bunker/bastion to survive 1 turn for your reserves to come in next turn.

Interceptor has a facing/firing arc. Farsight-bomb can easily deepstrike without scatter outside the firing arcs of the land speeders.

Whirlwinds in a Ravenwing list? It's not going to be very common at, all but who cares? The markerlight unit will be in the bunker.

One of the problems with RW is that it is still an elitist army. That basically means a low-model-count army. When Tau reserves come in, every model that they kill will impact the army significantly.

jy2 - I agree - instead of a supporting character cast - it's probably better to just take more cents. They will do their thing pretty well even without spell support.

How about this. You could run gladius and take 0 libby.

take Cassuis
and a Sheild captain

Drop with 2 units of cents.

Maybe save yourself enough points to bring in even more alpha strike units. Just a thought.

Crusade wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Here is an example of a list that I would run. The emphasis isn't on psychic powers. Rather, it is on lots of scoring and a distributed threat used to alpha-strike the opponent. I don't care about Skyhammer because I can just null-deploy. Drop my centurions on T1 if I'm going 2nd or drop them later if I am going 1st.


1850 White Scars:

Librarian - Lvl 2, Auspex, Meltabombs
Librarian - Lvl 2, Auspex, Meltabombs

5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Combi-melta, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Tacticals - Meltagun, Combi-melta, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Tacticals - Gravgun, Combi-grav, Meltabombs, Drop Pod
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm
5x Scouts - Meltabombs, Land Speeder Storm

Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters
3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters
3x Grav Centurions - Omniscope, Hurricane Bolters

Inquisition Allies:

Coteaz (feel free to swap him out for a 3rd Librarian and move 1 troops to the allies section if you want)

jy2,

Based on this list, would it be benefit you to run the 3x scouts in the new formation? I've been pondering turn 1 precision strikes off of the land speeder storms/scouts themselves? It'd also provide obj camping scouts free stealth.

Actually on that note, Turn 1 precision strikes off the new str 4 ceberus launcher could be interesting.

The problem with the 10th Company formation is that the scouts in there aren't Objective Secured. I'd take the ObSec anyday over T1 precision shots or Stealth-until-you-move. Besides, I usually reserve my land speeder scouts and when they come in, they can move 30" to get to almost any objective.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ravenwing is going to destroy gladius. To the extent gladius isn't going to show up to tournaments. I wouldn't worry about gladius.
Marine lists are going to be more focused on hard hitting alphas from skyhammer and CAD with ultra marines running tiggy with grav devs.

Problem is - MSU don't gain much from libbies because their firepower and total wounds/defense is so low per squad. Marine have almost no other method to ignore cover - and without ignore cover - you can't beat raven wing. Want to see how fast 25 MSU can disappear when they cant kill anything? watch that matchup.

Skyhammer + CAD also wrecks galdius - the alpha alone I calculate can kill 8 razorbacks with decent rolls. Leaving you fighting an army of bolter marines fighting heavily armed marines.

How are you killing 8 razorbacks in 1 turn?

I personally think that the Gladius is the new king of the Tournament scene and as soon as I'm done building mine I shall test my theory against my very willing Ravenwing player.

Excellent point. Really glad I finally got myself involved on the dakka. Community is making some excellent suggestions.

I like how everyone ignores the most obvious counter to good cover saves: Chainsword to the face.

For the price of a black knight, SW can get a TWC.

For 2 points more than a RW biker, SM get a vanguard vet with a jump pack and power weapon.

Now you just need enough firepower to make them jink.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ravenwing is going to destroy gladius. To the extent gladius isn't going to show up to tournaments. I wouldn't worry about gladius.
Marine lists are going to be more focused on hard hitting alphas from skyhammer and CAD with ultra marines running tiggy with grav devs.

Problem is - MSU don't gain much from libbies because their firepower and total wounds/defense is so low per squad. Marine have almost no other method to ignore cover - and without ignore cover - you can't beat raven wing. Want to see how fast 25 MSU can disappear when they cant kill anything? watch that matchup.

Skyhammer + CAD also wrecks galdius - the alpha alone I calculate can kill 8 razorbacks with decent rolls. Leaving you fighting an army of bolter marines fighting heavily armed marines.

How are you killing 8 razorbacks in 1 turn?

I personally think that the Gladius is the new king of the Tournament scene and as soon as I'm done building mine I shall test my theory against my very willing Ravenwing player.

I figure between the assault marines assaulting at least 2 razors and HP them out, 2 combat squadded dev squads with ether MM or GC should be able to kill 4 razors then supporting fire from the rest of the 800+ points can get at least 2 more. More than 8 is actually pretty likely. You've got to remember razor backs are AV 11 and can't jink - essentially they are the easiest transport in the game to kill. I'm not saying it's not going to be competitive - I'm just saying that skyhammer is going to be more effective. I could be wrong - I've mostly been painting and building lately and not playing much. I just know razorbacks are pretty awful - I've even said things about them like "I wouldn't take them for 20 points" LOL funny cause thats now what people are doing.

 Xenomancers wrote:
jy2 - I agree - instead of a supporting character cast - it's probably better to just take more cents. They will do their thing pretty well even without spell support.

How about this. You could run gladius and take 0 libby.

take Cassuis
and a Sheild captain

Drop with 2 units of cents.

Maybe save yourself enough points to bring in even more alpha strike units. Just a thought.

Sounds a lot like my Battle Company army above.

Mavnas wrote:
I like how everyone ignores the most obvious counter to good cover saves: Chainsword to the face.

For the price of a black knight, SW can get a TWC.

For 2 points more than a RW biker, SM get a vanguard vet with a jump pack and power weapon.

Now you just need enough firepower to make them jink.

I've thought about this. My concern is that mass-plasma with the scoot-&-shoot tactic is enough to devastate Thunderwolves before the inevitable BK charge, hit-&-run and shooting all over again.

Mavnas wrote:
I like how everyone ignores the most obvious counter to good cover saves: Chainsword to the face.

For the price of a black knight, SW can get a TWC.

For 2 points more than a RW biker, SM get a vanguard vet with a jump pack and power weapon.

Now you just need enough firepower to make them jink.

Blackknights are pretty dang good in CC - plus they overwatch at full BS. Plasma talon is actually one of the most optimal weapons for killing thunder wolves. You are correct though - close combat is one of the best methods to get around cover. Problem for tau is - they are the worst army in the game in assault. That's my point.

Ah. I see. Well I see only 1 issue with the idea of 6 units deepstriking T1 and that is placement and board space. With careful deployment I could EASILY make it so you have no where to land safely if I have 6+ razorbacks.

+ if your running JUST razorbacks then your doing it wrong. I'm of the opinion that 6 tactical squad razorbacks variously equipped + 6 drop pods of grav devastators, flame assault marines, and dreadnoughts supported by auspex chaplain and Korsharo Kahn will be the most adaptable and scoring list out there.

Although you could just as easily drop out the devastators and dreadnoughts and replace them with centurions.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Ah. I see. Well I see only 1 issue with the idea of 6 units deepstriking T1 and that is placement and board space. With careful deployment I could EASILY make it so you have no where to land safely if I have 6+ razorbacks.

+ if your running JUST razorbacks then your doing it wrong. I'm of the opinion that 6 tactical squad razorbacks variously equipped + 6 drop pods of grav devastators, flame assault marines, and dreadnoughts supported by auspex chaplain and Korsharo Kahn will be the most adaptable and scoring list out there.

Although you could just as easily drop out the devastators and dreadnoughts and replace them with centurions.

I've come to the same conclusion - personally - I think you are better off running full drop pods.

 jy2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
jy2 - I agree - instead of a supporting character cast - it's probably better to just take more cents. They will do their thing pretty well even without spell support.

How about this. You could run gladius and take 0 libby.

take Cassuis
and a Sheild captain

Drop with 2 units of cents.

Maybe save yourself enough points to bring in even more alpha strike units. Just a thought.

Sounds a lot like my Battle Company army above.

Mavnas wrote:
I like how everyone ignores the most obvious counter to good cover saves: Chainsword to the face.

For the price of a black knight, SW can get a TWC.

For 2 points more than a RW biker, SM get a vanguard vet with a jump pack and power weapon.

Now you just need enough firepower to make them jink.

I've thought about this. My concern is that mass-plasma with the scoot-&-shoot tactic is enough to devastate Thunderwolves before the inevitable BK charge, hit-&-run and shooting all over again.

Jy2, how many competitive players in a GT environment take TWC outside of a full Wolfstar? (which these days should have a full Librarius Conclave on bikes.) Plasma Talons meet invisibility. Even if the RW player gets T1 meaning no powers, it's 15-16 cyberwolves/fenrisians to eat through before you get to a bunch of 3++.

Not buyin' it.

I'm really not trying to hate on RW. I'm just saying they have weaknesses like everyone else. I think a Deathstar built around 10 Black Knights with a Librarius Conclave on Bikes and a Smashfrakker or two is as strong as any Deathstar out there. It can beat Gladius with massive multi-assaults like Wolfstar and Jetseer. Not easy, but doable. I'm just not buying unsupported Black Knights beating Wolfstar or Tau for that matter; properly constructed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
I like how everyone ignores the most obvious counter to good cover saves: Chainsword to the face.

For the price of a black knight, SW can get a TWC.

For 2 points more than a RW biker, SM get a vanguard vet with a jump pack and power weapon.

Now you just need enough firepower to make them jink.

Blackknights are pretty dang good in CC - plus they overwatch at full BS. Plasma talon is actually one of the most optimal weapons for killing thunder wolves. You are correct though - close combat is one of the best methods to get around cover. Problem for tau is - they are the worst army in the game in assault. That's my point.

They can't both jink and overwatch at full BS. Even at full BS, they would need an avaerage of 7-8 shots to kill one TWC model if you had a stormshield in front.

If you had an Iron Hands CM in a command squad with an apothecary, it would be that many shots to strip one W. Regular bike squads with non-TL plasma need 10 shots.

Of course if you only have one assault unit, they will wear it down.