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 Talys wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Peregrine hinted at one factor for me: sellers that request additional cash for fees are showing a big sign of being new to online sales, or very unexpert.

I might get a good price, but there's also a chance they screw it up.

Well, at the end of the day, the total price is the total price, right? You have a chance to back out until the instant you send the funds, and if you don't like the deal at any point, just walk. If you don't like the seller because you feel that they're trying to make you pay hidden fees, buh-buy!

Right, my point is that when see somebody asking for extra cash for paypal, I know they're an amateur. They don't buy and sell frequently, and they will be prone to amateur mistakes.

They are also probably selling something with emotional value, and they have a magic number in their head for what they want, dollar wise. I've found it best to usually steer clear of such sellers.

Talys, you don't understand. He'll never get back those precious seconds it took for him to click on the "deceptive" link so that only then he could read "+shipping" in the detailed description.

 Talys wrote:
And generally speaking, a seller can simply sell their goods to another customer -- if, for example, they don't like the buyer or the buyer is just too annoying to deal with.

Yes, this is exactly how it works. I'm just objecting to this idea that either party has an obligation to be "fair" to the other. Who deserves to pay the paypal fee is irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:
Right, my point is that when see somebody asking for extra cash for paypal, I know they're an amateur. They don't buy and sell frequently, and they will be prone to amateur mistakes.

They are also probably selling something with emotional value, and they have a magic number in their head for what they want, dollar wise. I've found it best to usually steer clear of such sellers.

Exactly. Paypal's fees are easily calculated before you put an item up for sale and most people consider the fee when setting a price, just like stores put a fixed price on the shelf and don't say "plus credit card transaction fee". So if someone says "plus paypal fees" it seems like they're treating the paypal fee as this weird surprise that happens when they try to sell an item, where someone with more experience buying and selling online would just consider it part of doing business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
How is he/she supposed to just give you a flat rate every time when they don't know where you live? US shipping is regional so it does change even within the lower 48 and that's not including the other two states or multiple US territories, let alone international shipping.

Three words: flat rate box.

If you're already offering a good deal on something, that extra few % discount could turn it to a loss instead of a profit for professional sellers or an unacceptable sale price for hobby sellers.

Then don't offer such a good deal in the first place. If you can't afford the paypal fee without asking for extra money to cover it then just increase your initial price. You know you're going to be paying the paypal fee, so why are you treating it as this sudden surprise that wipes out your profit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
Talys, you don't understand. He'll never get back those precious seconds it took for him to click on the "deceptive" link so that only then he could read "+shipping" in the detailed description.

It's not about getting those seconds back, it's about what deceptive advertising says about the seller in general. If they're saying "space marines: $20" in the title to get my attention and then saying "by the way, it's not really $20, it's going to be more like $30 once I include all of my fees" then I'm going to be suspicious of everything else. If they're willing to present a misleading price up front because they know that the actual price won't be as appealing then what else are they hiding in the fine print of their deal? Are the models damaged in some way that isn't visible in their pictures? Are they going to take shortcuts in packaging them safely? Etc.

 Polonius wrote:

Right, my point is that when see somebody asking for extra cash for paypal, I know they're an amateur. They don't buy and sell frequently, and they will be prone to amateur mistakes.

They are also probably selling something with emotional value, and they have a magic number in their head for what they want, dollar wise. I've found it best to usually steer clear of such sellers.

That is an interesting perspective. I never came to the conclusion that someone asking a buyer cover to Paypal fees was an amateur, rather I assume the seller is well versed in online selling and is just proactive in reducing the costs associated with their sales. I am usually more concerned by sellers who don't have a clear shipping cost in mind after I give them my zip code, or who are hazy with details about the condition of the item in question. Those are marks of an amateur in my opinion. Someone who is aware of potential fees and asks for them to be covered up front is someone I will assume has crunched the numbers on their asking price and is on their game in terms of selling.


Where does the leap to emotional attachment remark come from? Or do you just assume all amateur sellers are going to be emotionally attached to their items and therefore difficult to work with? I just don't connect "pay my fees" to "This model was painted when I was 10 and is AMAZING. $10,000,000 dollars, please." They seem like issues so far removed that one has nothing to do with the other.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I assume the seller is well versed in online selling and is just proactive in reducing the costs associated with their sales.

You know what's even more proactive than asking for extra money to cover paypal fees? Reading paypal's policies, calculating what the fee will be on a given sale, and including it in the price of the item. When I go to the grocery store I don't expect to see one price on the shelf and then have the store ask for extra fees to cover the cost of the plastic bag. And that's because they're a properly-functioning business, understand their expenses, and offer a single price to the customer that accounts for all of their various expenses and profit goals. So why should selling models be any different?

Or do you just assume all amateur sellers are going to be emotionally attached to their items and therefore difficult to work with?

It's not a bad assumption to make. Not all amateur sellers are emotionally attached and irrational, but virtually everyone who is emotionally attached is an amateur seller.

I dont really mind either way as long as you are upfront about it.

My personal preference is to include the fees in the price as then I know exactly what I am going to pay. If you say x price plus fees that fine too.

If however you say x price paypal only then don't mention fees until we have agreed and then say by the way you give it to me as a gift or you pay the fees then I think you are being sneaky and it leads me to question you.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I assume the seller is well versed in online selling and is just proactive in reducing the costs associated with their sales.

You know what's even more proactive than asking for extra money to cover paypal fees? Reading paypal's policies, calculating what the fee will be on a given sale, and including it in the price of the item.

And if the sales ad is a series of items that the seller has no idea how many the buyer will want, how are the fees calculated ahead of time? How could this hypothetical seller possibly calculate the fees ahead of time for the myriad combinations of purchases that potential buyers will make?

Remember, these are Bartertown or Swap Shop style ads we are discussing. Those typically are presented with a list of items, the asking price per item, and then some boiler plate about the buyer paying shipping and Paypal fees. There is no way a seller could anticipate the quantity of items a buyer would want and calculate the fees in advance. That is an absurd expectation.

And again, you are equating practices of a "properly functioning business" with a private seller. Let's be honest here, virtually all private sellers are amateurs unless they also have an actual retail business, so your expectations seem largely unrealistic in my opinion.

 Peregrine wrote:
When I go to the grocery store I don't expect to see one price on the shelf and then have the store ask for extra fees to cover the cost of the plastic bag. And that's because they're a properly-functioning business, understand their expenses, and offer a single price to the customer that accounts for all of their various expenses and profit goals. So why should selling models be any different?

Ooo, I can be annoyingly nit-picky here. ACTUALLY... here in southern California stores do require you to buy your plastic bags at a cost of $0.10 - 0.15 each. They ask you as you are checking out and the bag fees are not listed with the price of the items on the store shelves. How awful, eh? So deceptive! So amateurish!

All fine points about the fee's and what makes a seller an amateur or not. But there are other ways to look at things... Maybe said seller list his fee's because he is trying to be an "honest" seller and not try to hide any extra cost added to the total amount? Yes , I know a lot of you will say that would be a "noob" thing to do, but at the sametime that also help with business as I'd much rather deal with an honest merchant than one in question. Since we live in a dog-eat-dog world it seems, this kinda of practice and "honest" merchants is just a joke to most buyers/sellers. But the world is whatever you make it out to be. Some here see it as a everyman for himself, some (believe it or not) like to be fair and hope the same can be passed on.

Hidden fee's is something no one likes, and if possible would like to know what they are paying for. You of course are not obligated to purchase anything, so you can walk away, of course. The thing that has really gotten on my nerves , is when you have gone through the process and right as you pay, the seller says price will increase due to fee's & shipping,etc. That has happened a lot more recently.

 carlos13th wrote:
I dont really mind either way as long as you are upfront about it.

My personal preference is to include the fees in the price as then I know exactly what I am going to pay. If you say x price plus fees that fine too.

If however you say x price paypal only then don't mention fees until we have agreed and then say by the way you give it to me as a gift or you pay the fees then I think you are being sneaky and it leads me to question you.

Exactly. I think that is how most people approach this situation. If a seller is upfront about any additional fees before a deal is struck (and before payment is made) then there is no deception, and the buyer has every opportunity to walk away.

I think it is funny that the call for Paypal fees to be hidden in the cost of the price is somehow acceptable, but being up front about the fees is deceptive, amateurish behavior. Boggles the mind!

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
I dont really mind either way as long as you are upfront about it.

My personal preference is to include the fees in the price as then I know exactly what I am going to pay. If you say x price plus fees that fine too.

If however you say x price paypal only then don't mention fees until we have agreed and then say by the way you give it to me as a gift or you pay the fees then I think you are being sneaky and it leads me to question you.

Exactly. I think that is how most people approach this situation. If a seller is upfront about any additional fees before a deal is struck (and before payment is made) then there is no deception, and the buyer has every opportunity to walk away.

I think it is funny that the call for Paypal fees to be hidden in the cost of the price is somehow acceptable, but being up front about the fees is deceptive, amateurish behavior. Boggles the mind!

It is acceptable because no one knows about it and therefore can not judge you.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 carlos13th wrote:
I dont really mind either way as long as you are upfront about it.

My personal preference is to include the fees in the price as then I know exactly what I am going to pay. If you say x price plus fees that fine too.

If however you say x price paypal only then don't mention fees until we have agreed and then say by the way you give it to me as a gift or you pay the fees then I think you are being sneaky and it leads me to question you.

Exactly. I think that is how most people approach this situation. If a seller is upfront about any additional fees before a deal is struck (and before payment is made) then there is no deception, and the buyer has every opportunity to walk away.

I think it is funny that the call for Paypal fees to be hidden in the cost of the price is somehow acceptable, but being up front about the fees is deceptive, amateurish behavior. Boggles the mind!

It is acceptable because no one knows about it and therefore can not judge you.

Is that the metric we are using for acceptable trading practices? I think my Do Not Trade list is going to get a little bigger.

 Peregrine wrote:
It's deceptive because the accurate way to present the sale is "10x space marines NOS for $35". As a buyer I don't care about what percentage of the final price goes to shipping, paypal fees, splitting the price with the guy who asked you to sell his models, etc. All I care about is the final amount charged to my credit card. But you're trying to catch my attention with the $25 partial cost in the title, probably because you know that the actual $35 price of your models will be much less appealing.

That isn't entirely accurate at least in my opinion. I believe as a buyer you should always be aware of the fees, % and the actual cost of the item. I consider rolling costs to be more deceptive.

For me I would consider $35 more deceptive than $25 + Fee's. I understand where the opinion can be deceptive because they got your attention with the low price. However I consider "Free" very deceptive anyways as there is no such thing. Kickstarters roll the costs into the pledges and offer "Free Shipping" but it isn't really free shipping. I do like items that say free shipping, you'll notice they are usually priced higher or it is someone who does a lot of business/shipping so they simply eat the cost (comes down to a quantity vs one off sales). However as a buyer I'm always aware just how much is going towards shipping, I know the price without shipping and then look at shipping otherwise I'd never truly know if I was getting a good deal.

That is just me though. Thankfully it is a fairly large market where if you don't like it, then simply move on and don't do business with them.

Now there should never be price advertised for X amount, then after you agree they want you to pay for fees or ask that you send it as a gift. At that point it is a red flag and you should back away. Unless it was someone who I've known or dealt with regularly (I have an artist I commission and send it as a gift), it wasn't talked about in the initial post or agreement then yes that is deceptive. All the information should be in the post and it should be clear cut, not after you've talked to someone then add in 'extra costs'.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Talys wrote:
And generally speaking, a seller can simply sell their goods to another customer -- if, for example, they don't like the buyer or the buyer is just too annoying to deal with.

Yes, this is exactly how it works. I'm just objecting to this idea that either party has an obligation to be "fair" to the other. Who deserves to pay the paypal fee is irrelevant.

Oh, okay, I get it. "fair" is way too subjective (and cultural) anyhow. What's fair in Hong Kong, Moscow, and San Francisco are totally different things. One person's cutthroat is another's sharp businessman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
Talys, you don't understand. He'll never get back those precious seconds it took for him to click on the "deceptive" link so that only then he could read "+shipping" in the detailed description.

Lawsuit. It's the only way!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:
Right, my point is that when see somebody asking for extra cash for paypal, I know they're an amateur. They don't buy and sell frequently, and they will be prone to amateur mistakes.

They are also probably selling something with emotional value, and they have a magic number in their head for what they want, dollar wise. I've found it best to usually steer clear of such sellers.

I get what you're saying. You'd rather deal with pro sellers, because they tend to have a more efficient, error-free system; plus, they're more likely to get you your stuff on time and undamaged. On the other hand, if someone wants to sell me their Forgeworld models at a great price but be emotional about it, let those crocodile tears run!

In regards to the fairness of Paypal fees, I brought up that the buyer benefits from Paypal just as much as the seller not to encourage "fairness" but rather to point out something that I think gets overlooked by a lot of people. I suppose I should have been clearer in my posts because I wasn't arguing that one party should have to pay the fees to be "nice" or "fair" to the other party. I mentioned what I did to remind people that it isn't just the seller benefiting from Paypal's service. The buyer benefits too. So arguing that the fees are part of the seller's costs, while technically true because Paypal's policies make that so, the argument doesn't acknowledge the "service" the buyer is gaining from using Paypal (convenience, safety, etc.)

My intention was to provide buyers troubled by the concept of paying a seller's transaction fees an alternative viewpoint to reconsider their stance. It is easier to accept paying the associated fees for a service you acknowledge is useful and necessary.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
In regards to the fairness of Paypal fees, I brought up that the buyer benefits from Paypal just as much as the seller not to encourage "fairness" but rather to point out something that I think gets overlooked by a lot of people. I suppose I should have been clearer in my posts because I wasn't arguing that one party should have to pay the fees to be "nice" or "fair" to the other party. I mentioned what I did to remind people that it isn't just the seller benefiting from Paypal's service. The buyer benefits too. So arguing that the fees are part of the seller's costs, while technically true because Paypal's policies make that so, the argument doesn't acknowledge the "service" the buyer is gaining from using Paypal (convenience, safety, etc.)

My intention was to provide buyers troubled by the concept of paying a seller's transaction fees an alternative viewpoint to reconsider their stance. It is easier to accept paying the associated fees for a service you acknowledge is useful and necessary.

You say the buyer benefit from paypal as much as the seller, but only one thing do they both benefit...seller/buyer protection. Now paypal charges the buyer fee's for using paypal's features to help organize, ship, print labels, etc. The buyer is paying for the Convenience of the site that allows for smooth and fast transactions. The seller just gets "protection" which is a free of charge courtesy for all customers in order to get more business.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Where does the leap to emotional attachment remark come from? Or do you just assume all amateur sellers are going to be emotionally attached to their items and therefore difficult to work with? I just don't connect "pay my fees" to "This model was painted when I was 10 and is AMAZING. $10,000,000 dollars, please." They seem like issues so far removed that one has nothing to do with the other.

It's a leap, but I feel that an expereince seller will look at the market, realize his item generally sells for about $50 shipped on ebay. he doesn't want to use eBay, because of fees and hassle, but decides that getting about $30-40 net would be ideal He goes to Bartertown or the Swap shop, and posts an ad for his item for $40 shipped, knowing that even with fees and shipping, he's getting $30, which is probably a fair non-ebay price.

An amateur has a dollar figure in mind. He can't bear to sell his item for less than a certain price, so he asks that price, but has to add in the other stuff to make up for his expenses.

I'd agree that a seller that puts the fee surcharge in his initial ad is more on the ball, and one that brings it up later in negotiations is more bush league.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
In regards to the fairness of Paypal fees, I brought up that the buyer benefits from Paypal just as much as the seller not to encourage "fairness" but rather to point out something that I think gets overlooked by a lot of people. I suppose I should have been clearer in my posts because I wasn't arguing that one party should have to pay the fees to be "nice" or "fair" to the other party. I mentioned what I did to remind people that it isn't just the seller benefiting from Paypal's service. The buyer benefits too. So arguing that the fees are part of the seller's costs, while technically true because Paypal's policies make that so, the argument doesn't acknowledge the "service" the buyer is gaining from using Paypal (convenience, safety, etc.)

My intention was to provide buyers troubled by the concept of paying a seller's transaction fees an alternative viewpoint to reconsider their stance. It is easier to accept paying the associated fees for a service you acknowledge is useful and necessary.

You say the buyer benefit from paypal as much as the seller, but only one thing do they both benefit...seller/buyer protection. Now paypal charges the buyer fee's for using paypal's features to help organize, ship, print labels, etc. The buyer is paying for the Convenience of the site that allows for smooth and fast transactions. The seller just gets "protection" which is a free of charge courtesy for all customers in order to get more business.

You're leaving out a major factor that both buyer and seller benefit from, and one I'd argue is one of the primary benefits of Paypal: speed. Paypal is nearly instant, checks and money orders have built in delays due to the need to be physically mailed. Credit card transactions can't be considered for this discussion, because most private individuals do not have access to a credit card terminal.

So, for forum sales prior to Paypal one was usually left paying with check, money order, or cash if you were really daring. Of those three money orders were usually the preferred method of paying, and those cost the buyer fees both to obtain the money order and of course mail it.

That is why I brought up the old days of pre-Paypal money orders, because Paypal really made it a lot easier and safer to conduct private sales online. For everyone, buyer and seller included.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

That is why I brought up the old days of pre-Paypal money orders, because Paypal really made it a lot easier and safer to conduct private sales online. For everyone, buyer and seller included.

Oh my god, I remember those days. Or if you paid by check, they would wait for it to clear before shipping. It was a PITA.

Paypal offers more than just convenince. It offers speed, and for the buyer, it offers protection. There's nothing inherenlty wrong with shifting the cost of paypal fees unto the buyer, it just rubs me the wrong way, especially as it's not that hard for a seller to keep that 3% in mind when setting prices.

Speed is a common thing with most internet transactions now. Paying with Card is such a common thing in this era , so you can get that "speed" anywhere. Paypal has always been known for buyer and seller protection, that has just been their thing for a sales pitch. Checks and money orders are so rarely used for online pay, and most private sellers wont accept them through an online transaction.

So buyer Fees are strictly for the buyer and everything paypal has offered to the buyer to make his/her transactions go smoother.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
You say the buyer benefit from paypal as much as the seller, but only one thing do they both benefit...seller/buyer protection. Now paypal charges the buyer fee's for using paypal's features to help organize, ship, print labels, etc. The buyer is paying for the Convenience of the site that allows for smooth and fast transactions. The seller just gets "protection" which is a free of charge courtesy for all customers in order to get more business.

Right. But let's be honest: most people simply use PayPal because it's a relatively cheap way to send money from one party to another. What they charge is a perfectly reasonable fee, for that.

All the "protection" stuff is so painful and long to go through, that for small purchases, it's not even remotely close to being worth the effort. It takes MONTHS to resolve. Maybe some people are comfortable with it, but I'm not comfortable sending PayPal to a total stranger for a dollar amount that's so large that I'd be upset if I got ripped off (say, a few hundred dollars).

In a way, I look at it like walking into a small business. Some of them will charge you an extra fee if you use your credit card, and some of them will give you a discount if you pay cash or debit. It's really the same thing, right?

I don't get offended if I walk into a small computer store, and their debit card price is lower than their credit card price by 3%, any more than if I go into a small restaurant that is cash only, or credit card only over $100. I don't think they're trying to hide fees from me; they're just trying to make a living like everyone else.

Now, AIRLINE TICKETS -- that's hiding fees. In some jurisdictions, it's possible for someone to advertise an airplane ticket for $400, but by the time you PAY for it, it's $678 (that's not an exaggeration). The advertised ticket price doesn't have all the taxes, levies, airport fees, and all that stuff, which is HUGE. And the latest, that I love: when you get to the airport, another $25 per bag, and $10 or whatever for a meal voucher LOL

Here is one. I am running a Flames of War tournament in a little over a month. I can get 22 people in the tourney and have all ready figured up prize support for that number of players. I am accepting prepays via PP. The entry is $10.00 if they gift or add fees if they pay as a good or service. If I didn't do that I come up short for the prize pool and would end up spending even more money out of my pocket to host the tournament than I all ready am.

The danger for entries is if they gift and I cancel they won't be able to dispute the transaction for a refund. So I will leave it up to them to trust me or not.

I sometimes choose to pay paypal fees (where somebody suggests a friends/family payment),

simply because I'm much more comfortable being able to prove it was a purchase and thus covered by the paypal guarantees7

It's a lot easier to cover the extra fees myself than to argue with a seller about why he should

 Talys wrote:
Now, AIRLINE TICKETS -- that's hiding fees. In some jurisdictions, it's possible for someone to advertise an airplane ticket for $400, but by the time you PAY for it, it's $678 (that's not an exaggeration). The advertised ticket price doesn't have all the taxes, levies, airport fees, and all that stuff, which is HUGE. And the latest, that I love: when you get to the airport, another $25 per bag, and $10 or whatever for a meal voucher LOL

Completely agree!

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Speed is a common thing with most internet transactions now. Paying with Card is such a common thing in this era , so you can get that "speed" anywhere.

For retailers sure, but for private transactions no, paying with credit card is not a common thing. Most private individuals cannot accept credit card payments without services like Paypal to act as an intermediary. Again, I thought we were talking about private sales?

 Peregrine wrote:


Because I'm entitled to everything as the buyer. I'm entitled to have your product at 5% of retail price with free shipping, and you will say "thank you Peregrine for being a valued customer". I don't care about you as a person, and I certainly don't care about whatever sad story is the reason why you're selling your models. All I care about is your price relative to other sellers. If your final price (including shipping and fees) is the best deal then I'll buy from you. Otherwise I'll just buy from someone else.

Buyers rights are great and everything, but good god. Attitudes like this are a serious problem

Even as a buyer, you should still keep in mind that you're dealing with a person. Shopping around is fine, looking for the best value is absolutely your right. You are not, however, entitled to disregard their fundamental human rights. Gakking all over someone because "I'm the buyer, so suck it and deal" is totally wrong and wholly unjustifiable.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Speed is a common thing with most internet transactions now. Paying with Card is such a common thing in this era , so you can get that "speed" anywhere.

For retailers sure, but for private transactions no, paying with credit card is not a common thing. Most private individuals cannot accept credit card payments without services like Paypal to act as an intermediary. Again, I thought we were talking about private sales?

We are talking about private sellers. And A lot of private sellers ive run into or via internet accept cards. Technology has grown quickly over the years, everyone has smart phones and apps that allow the use of these transactions. If I were to purchase through the dakka swap shop, seller will send invoice , I click accept & pay. Done. Credit and debit have become more numerous and a lot of sellers have adapted to it.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Speed is a common thing with most internet transactions now. Paying with Card is such a common thing in this era , so you can get that "speed" anywhere.

For retailers sure, but for private transactions no, paying with credit card is not a common thing. Most private individuals cannot accept credit card payments without services like Paypal to act as an intermediary. Again, I thought we were talking about private sales?

We are talking about private sellers. And A lot of private sellers ive run into or via internet accept cards. Technology has grown quickly over the years, everyone has smart phones and apps that allow the use of these transactions. If I were to purchase through the dakka swap shop, seller will send invoice , I click accept & pay. Done. Credit and debit have become more numerous and a lot of sellers have adapted to it.

Cool, you are giving strangers your CC info. Wanna do a trade?

You seem to be behind on technology. You do realize paypal has a mobile card swipe that a lot of people use? And in person, Always use cash.... a little tip for ya. paypal online. All of it is secure and simple.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
You seem to be behind on technology. You do realize paypal has a mobile card swipe that a lot of people use? And in person, Always use cash.... a little tip for ya. paypal online. All of it is secure and simple.

Perhaps I am behind on my technology. The Paypal card reader allows you to swipe someone's credit card through e-mail? I was under the impression that those were only useful for in-person transactions. Magical!

So your example is not relevant to the discussion. I can't pay you on Dakka using your Paypal card reader unless I am standing in front of you. And if your Paypal card reader can key in my credit card number I'd still have to send you that information remotely, yes? Again, if you're sending your CC info to strangers please trade with me. I hear there is a new Warlord titan for sale and I'd love to get three.

Square has a credit card reader, as well as an online service. To use the online service, you send the buyer an invoice through Square. That way your CC info is never shared. Paypal works the same way.