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grumpy_newenglander wrote:
Just started Chaos myself... what's this about the model line needing an overhaul? The basic Marine set seems fine to me... better than GK but obv not as nice as the new SM line.

Picked up a box of marines and a rhino... trying to decide between Black Legion scheme or one of the red ones. Life is hard.

The basic Chaos Marine box does not include all weapon options for the squad, even in terms of basic weapons. Most of the model line is either really old, a Finecast abomination, ugly as sin, or a combination of the three. Aside from the Daemon Prince, Terminator Chaos Lord/Sorceror, and Raptors/Warp Talons the basic model line neeeeeeeeeeeeds a major revamp.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

grumpy_newenglander wrote:
Just started Chaos myself... what's this about the model line needing an overhaul? The basic Marine set seems fine to me... better than GK but obv not as nice as the new SM line.

Picked up a box of marines and a rhino... trying to decide between Black Legion scheme or one of the red ones. Life is hard.

The basic Chaos Marine box does not include all weapon options for the squad, even in terms of basic weapons. Most of the model line is either really old, a Finecast abomination, ugly as sin, or a combination of the three. Aside from the Daemon Prince, Terminator Chaos Lord/Sorceror, and Raptors/Warp Talons the basic model line neeeeeeeeeeeeds a major revamp.

Pretty much this. The only other models that are up to scratch are 30k, but they are a premium currently.

Half the reason why I'm tempted to just go Alpha Legion is for the ease of using Loyalists models as a base, then removing any purity seals/aquilas etc and adding hydras (the other half is the totes badass lore).

slickviscous wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:

Looking at your list from your previous post, it doesn't seem much like a Night Lords army to me personally. Night Lords for me are all about Raptors, Warp Talons and units that move quickly, hit hard and are stealthy if they can be (a bit like an evil version of Ravenguard - you never know Night Lords might get infiltrating Raptors). If you can afford them, the Night Lords Raptors on Forgeworld are just beautiful, as is the Night Lords Contemptor and their standard dreadnought.

I am intending to develop the force with more units related to the Night Lords (Raptors etc.), however I am somewhat financially constrained so am starting quite basic. The list I have comprised so far relies on Noise Marines for their pinning ability weapons that I feel fits with the "fear" idea of the NL. I do also say at the top of that list that I intend to acquire Raptors later along the line.

Ah, fair enough. In that case, I would just do what you're doing with basic troops and then wait for the new codex. I would expect it to be out before Christmas or early in the new year at the latest so you shouldn't have too long to wait.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

As much as I love my Chaos Space Marines, they're trash outside of FW. And no one should ever have to invest in $100+ on an IA book just to be competitive within the 40k Scene. LIterally, aside from Troops and HQs our entire competitive list of units comes from FW for an extremely large cost in comparison to other armies. Not to mention Import Charges.

Cannot disagree here, but if you buy in bulk with friends it makes shipping free and GW's plastic prices are getting so ludicrous that FW prices are not that much higher these days sadly enough.

I started investing in forge world solely because I wanted to add some cool models to my collection. Now I have way too many forge world chaos related models and want more since IA 13 came out. :\

 TheNewBlood wrote:

grumpy_newenglander wrote:
Just started Chaos myself... what's this about the model line needing an overhaul? The basic Marine set seems fine to me... better than GK but obv not as nice as the new SM line.

Picked up a box of marines and a rhino... trying to decide between Black Legion scheme or one of the red ones. Life is hard.

The basic Chaos Marine box does not include all weapon options for the squad, even in terms of basic weapons. Most of the model line is either really old, a Finecast abomination, ugly as sin, or a combination of the three. Aside from the Daemon Prince, Terminator Chaos Lord/Sorceror, and Raptors/Warp Talons the basic model line neeeeeeeeeeeeds a major revamp.

A re-doing of our basic model line would also hopefully welcome some brand new upgrade options, such as a chaotic 'warpified' version of a Grav gun styled weapon, the return of solid assault options such as Heavy flamers, etc...

I've said for a good while now, that our biggest issue in 'modern 40k' is purely due to our stagnant model line... Everyone else has been regularly gifted with new toys & options, while on the back end, our armoury has remained stuck in neutral for over 15 years now!
Releasing a new Havoc kit for example could easily mean we'll finally get a couple NEW heavy weapon options!

Better designed model kits that give us the same level of options & upgrades that everyone else gets would easily bring us up to par with the majority of the armies out there...
Unfortunately right now though, we're stuck with plastic Heavy bolters as our only heavy weapon option for example, while everyone else has most/all of their options readily available. In a shooting heavy game were weight of fire is king, we simply have no ability to viably build a capable army, unless you want to soak up the massive premiums of FW or bitz sites, etc...

Hopefully a new codex release will bring with it some updated miniatures with improved rules. My regular opponent plays Chaos and I used to have a high win rate against him, but as soon as he started playing unbound and including things like a Forgeworld Greater Brass Scorpion it evened the playing field and I struggle to deal with it. Our games now are a lot more equal and thus a lot more fun since one sided games soon lose their appeal if your opponent has no chance before you've even started.

 Slaphead wrote:
Hopefully a new codex release will bring with it some updated miniatures with improved rules. My regular opponent plays Chaos and I used to have a high win rate against him, but as soon as he started playing unbound and including things like a Forgeworld Greater Brass Scorpion it evened the playing field and I struggle to deal with it. Our games now are a lot more equal and thus a lot more fun since one sided games soon lose their appeal if your opponent has no chance before you've even started.

Did he go unbound to include the brass scorpion or for other reasons? The scorpion is a lord of war, so can be tacked on to a standard CAD and still be a proper force not needing unbound.

IA13 will need a FAQ once CSMs get an update that includes all the detachments and formations so that the units can properly fit into the org without always needing a CAD to include the IA13 units.

Buy troops and bikes. Those things are basic necessities and won't get mauled further by a new codex.

 Skriker wrote:
Did he go unbound to include the brass scorpion or for other reasons? The scorpion is a lord of war, so can be tacked on to a standard CAD and still be a proper force not needing unbound.

IA13 will need a FAQ once CSMs get an update that includes all the detachments and formations so that the units can properly fit into the org without always needing a CAD to include the IA13 units.

He has done a bit of both, but mostly goes unbound so he doesn't have to take the standard troop choices such as chaos Space Marines, Cultists etc to fill the force org. By going unbound he could fill his army with the greater brass scorpion, daemon prince, obliterators and more of the harder hitting stuff without having to rely on his standard troops (which just got wiped out most of the time without being able to do much). As soon as he threw the standard CAD out the window and just starting bringing the big nasty stuff, he started doing a lot better. He plays as a Khorne force and isn't fussed about objectives, just the killing - in true Khorne style

Our wins against each other are a lot more even now.

Well, I'd start with the project.
A new codex will not make anything better for CSM as recent releases have shown.

Tbf csm really ain't that bad right now. People make them out yo be alot worse than they are. Yes we really struggle vs eldar but we can still win we do still have tricks up our sleeves. It's just us csm players imho have to know our own rules and our opponents rules real well then we can go for the match ups we want

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Tbf csm really ain't that bad right now. People make them out yo be alot worse than they are. Yes we really struggle vs eldar but we can still win we do still have tricks up our sleeves. It's just us csm players imho have to know our own rules and our opponents rules real well then we can go for the match ups we want

They're one of the worst performing armies at tournaments. Nobody here is exaggerating that waiting is basically the best answer.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Tbf csm really ain't that bad right now. People make them out yo be alot worse than they are. Yes we really struggle vs eldar but we can still win we do still have tricks up our sleeves. It's just us csm players imho have to know our own rules and our opponents rules real well then we can go for the match ups we want

Being "decent" if you limit yourself to only playing with min/maxed Plaguemarines/Noise Marines, Oblits & Helldrakes, alongside a healthy does of Daemon allies doesn't count. Nor does the existance of IA13 hand wave away our massive problems, since only a very small minority of Chaos players will ever have access to those rules.

No amount of, "knowing our own rules and our opponent's rules real well" can help a Tzeentch or Khornate list for example... And while I enjoy the fluffiness of the Black Legion codex, Chosen are an atrociously overcosted unit, and succeed at nothing, while our useless model line costs us a frankly ludicrous $60 per Termie w/Combi-Melta!

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
Tbf csm really ain't that bad right now. People make them out yo be alot worse than they are. Yes we really struggle vs eldar but we can still win we do still have tricks up our sleeves. It's just us csm players imho have to know our own rules and our opponents rules real well then we can go for the match ups we want

Hard to know everyone else's rules as easily with Codex prices at $50. I don't buy all of them anymore for that price. So it is just compounded. Add in that CSM are consistently one of the lowest ranking tournement armies and you really are kind of off the mark. I do well with my CSMs most of the time, but my regular meta is relatively low powered so it isn't an issue for me. In any higher powered metas like tournements a CSM win, without support from outside sources like IA13 is very tough because they are lagging so far behind. They either are outnumbered by armies with a ton of free minis, or outpowered by armies with lots of OP undercosted stuff. Don't get me wrong, I will keep playing CSM and enjoying myself, but I have no illusions that the codex is really very useful these days on its own.