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 master of ordinance wrote:
Martel, I do have to say you have confused me

It's really simple, really. You take your shooting phase, and I put huge gobs of red marines back in my army cases. We don't have the alpha strike of SW or skyhammer and so we have to bet on getting across the board, and cutting down all your ablative expendable units before you shoot all the red marines to death. BA don't have anything like invisibility or MCs or GMCs or even T5 dudes like TWC at their disposal, so that makes BA quite fragile really compared to the good lists. I guess we have bikes with crappy jink saves that can't be made troops. Hooray.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Martel, I do have to say you have confused me

It's really simple, really. You take your shooting phase, and I put huge gobs of red marines back in my army cases. We don't have the alpha strike of SW or skyhammer and so we have to bet on getting across the board, and cutting down all your ablative expendable units before you shoot all the red marines to death. BA don't have anything like invisibility or MCs or GMCs or even T5 dudes like TWC at their disposal, so that makes BA quite fragile really compared to the good lists. I guess we have bikes with crappy jink saves that can't be made troops. Hooray.

They have drop pods and access to libby conclaves. So yeah they have access to invisibility. Not to mention those libbys can take auspexes making your melta spam more effective, especially since they stack.

Defeatist attitudes wont get you anywhere.

Funny. The libby conclave is not in my BA codex anywhere. I'm not buying a 60 dollar codex filled with units I don't even own.

Auspexes don't stack, either.

Also, melta spam is bad now in many ways because they made the vehicle damage table worse for melta. 3 X BS 4 melta have a 50/50 shot of popping a rhino. That's so awesome let me tell you.

Martel732 wrote:
Funny. The libby conclave is not in my BA codex anywhere. I'm not buying a 60 dollar codex filled with units I don't even own.

Auspexes don't stack, either.

Also, melta spam is bad now in many ways because they made the vehicle damage table worse for melta. 3 X BS 4 melta have a 50/50 shot of popping a rhino. That's so awesome let me tell you.

yes they do stack lol maybe if you bought that 60$ book you would no that

At least I know how "know" is actually spelled.

I've heard from multiple posters that they don't.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA hand out FNP to large sections of the list. FNP that battle cannons and other STR 8 ordinance happens to ignore. And the IG weapons look at lot better when they aren't insta-deleted by vanilla marine shenanigans. Getting to fire 2-3 times means a lot more BA get blown up before assault happens.

How many IG armies are packing battlecannons these days? Relatively few.

A 5+ cover save and a modicum of spread will generally thin out expected casualties such that a Russ tank usually isn't killing anything more than a couple of HWS's typically would. Yeah, if they land a juicy hit on a squad in the open, that's gonna suck, but I can count the number of times I've seen that happen in the last two editions on one hand.

Likewise, how are battlecannons more effective against BA's than say, Space Wolves?

They aren't negating the FNP that Space Wolves didn't pay for. Battle cannons don't double out TWC, and SW use drop pods with impunity. When BA use drop pods, it turns off our chapter tactic.

Battlecannons are not the end all-be-all of an IG army, and they're rarely used anymore because quite frankly they're a terrible TAC weapon (and make any other weapon on a Russ basically non-functional). When you see IG "power lists", you generally don't see Battlecannons. Unless you're playing someone tailoring against you, you probably aren't gong to see lots of them routinely. Even if you are, there's lots of ways to mitigate it and FNP still works great against multilasers, heavy bolters, autocannons, lasguns, plasma guns, etc.

Likewise, TWC's are not the end-all-be-all of Space Wolf armies either. If they're playing against IG, their Chapter Tactic equivalent might as well not exist, because I'm going to be shooting them and not charging them.

As for Drop Pods turning off BA's chapter tactic, what exactly are you referring to? Furious Charge is as unaffected as Counterattack is.

Can't assault from DS. Kind of makes furious charge worthless. Counterattack just requires that they stand there. It works perfectly fine with pods. In fact, they go together quite well.

IG also have Medusa guns and other weapons that are ST 8+ that are not battle cannons.

"Likewise, TWC's are not the end-all-be-all of Space Wolf armies either"

Pretty sure they can run over entire BA and IG lists, so for BA and IG, they are the end all be all.

text removed.

Reds8n

FWIW, the most common heavy support unit in competitive guard lists is the Wyvern, which you -do- get that FNP you paid for against it while other armies that don't have it die in the dirt.

Just sayin'.

Martel732 wrote:
Can't assault from DS. Kind of makes furious charge worthless. Counterattack just requires that they stand there. It works perfectly fine with pods. In fact, they go together quite well.

Against an IG army, Counterattack is worth a whole lot less than Furious Charge. Neither are going to be getting charged typically, and the S5 on subsequent turns is going to matter a whole lot more.

IG also have Medusa guns and other weapons that are ST 8+ that are not battle cannons.

Yes, but they're typically even rarer and are nasty against things like TWC's too. We're also talking about weapons that IG have had since...ever, and never made BA armies helpless in the past. IG armies have these weapons, but they aren't what makes them strong, When you look at strong IG armies out there, you don't see battle cannons and medusae everywhere.

"Likewise, TWC's are not the end-all-be-all of Space Wolf armies either"

Pretty sure they can run over entire BA and IG lists, so for BA and IG, they are the end all be all.

They can be made pretty absurd, no argument form me (though they typically work best with Allies). But they're also just one unit out of the entire codex, and the rest of the army is just as vulnerable to things like Battlecannons as any other SM army.

Its just a bitter pill when ba don't even have their one unit. TWC sure seem likeca cure all for a list that nominally wants to assault.

The only thing that kept the splat fest in check in 5th was razor spam. Now thats dead, so ba are dead meat to the kind of firepower ig bring to the table.

BA usually die to ig guns before furious charge goes off. Besides ig want to die on my turn so they can shoot me more.

The wyvern dishes out so many wounds that jump marines die even with fnp. Vanilla marines meanwhile are safe in their free transports or have already trashed the wyverns with skyhammer.

Martel732 wrote:

Auspexes don't stack, either.

I am confused as to how so many people don't know this. I think I have heard it said incorrectly about a dozen times on this forum alone. Literally every time someone brings auspexes up someone says it.

Gah!






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dman137 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Funny. The libby conclave is not in my BA codex anywhere. I'm not buying a 60 dollar codex filled with units I don't even own.

Auspexes don't stack, either.

Also, melta spam is bad now in many ways because they made the vehicle damage table worse for melta. 3 X BS 4 melta have a 50/50 shot of popping a rhino. That's so awesome let me tell you.

yes they do stack lol maybe if you bought that 60$ book you would no that

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!

Now I am going to go check it again just to make sure I'm not going crazy

They're just trolling us I suspect. I corrected them once and left it alone.

dman has no idea what he is talking about. One or more Auspexes reduce the cover save by 1. Not "For every auspex used against the target unit, the cover save is reduced by one." Reading comprehension fail.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Nothing will ever come close to comparing how automatically hard-countered 5th ed GK's vs. Daemons were...

Beyond having every single imaginable advantage plus the kitchen sink thrown in, Durp Knights could actively stop Daemons from even legally placing a single model on the table.

Well this might be the ultimate example...

However, while Ravenwing is hot sauce right now, I'm completely convinced that I could create a CSM/KDK list that would table a bike list hard, probably by turn 3... obviously we'd need to allow tailoring to our hard counters, but I kinda assume that's included.

For me, IG has murdered hordes for a long time, the amount of blast weapons i can put out on nids or orks is insane.

But nids don't realy have many units that can be hurt by blast weapons, and I don't think anyone plays orcs outside of those crazy combos with LoW full of mekks.

orks versus dark angels. magic is the dark angels strong suit and interromancy capitalizes on the orks biggest weakness his bad leadership values. in addition the ravenwing are ridiuclously fast compared to the slow ponderous ork armies that excel at out maneuvering slow armies. with the over abundance of large blast plates from the lsv, and dark talon mean that the orks literally are beaten before the match begins. it comes down to how many dark angels the orks can take with them before the end of the game

Makumba wrote:
But nids don't realy have many units that can be hurt by blast weapons, and I don't think anyone plays orcs outside of those crazy combos with LoW full of mekks.

Nid armies i'm up against rush me with gaunts and always have a swarmlord or synapse creature. The blasts take around around 90% of the fluff around the high point beasts which then i finish with S9 basilisk rounds and/or lascannons from vet teams and air support. The deathstrike missiles will kill most low point units in one blast and shave a wound off pretty much every major creature too. Any flyrants taken are countered with the quad gun, missiles and easiest of all the vendettas.

 ionusx wrote:
magic is the dark angels strong suit

While I'm not going to argue with the rest of your post (including Interromany versus Orks), magic isn't a big part of the Dark Angels and they aren't one of the magic-heavy armies (Grey Knights, Craftworld Eldar and Daemons, if I'm not mistaken).

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
magic is the dark angels strong suit

While I'm not going to argue with the rest of your post (including Interromany versus Orks), magic isn't a big part of the Dark Angels and they aren't one of the magic-heavy armies (Grey Knights, Craftworld Eldar and Daemons, if I'm not mistaken).

I assume he means Psychic lmao and yes and no. While we aren't as heavy as say GK, Eldar, and Daemons, we also have one of the strongest Primaris powers (Mind Worm) and the entire Interromancy isn't half bad (give Rage, force Snapshots, an AP2 Poison Blast).

Dman137 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Funny. The libby conclave is not in my BA codex anywhere. I'm not buying a 60 dollar codex filled with units I don't even own.

Auspexes don't stack, either.

Also, melta spam is bad now in many ways because they made the vehicle damage table worse for melta. 3 X BS 4 melta have a 50/50 shot of popping a rhino. That's so awesome let me tell you.

yes they do stack lol maybe if you bought that 60$ book you would no that

You're kidding right? Dboy is kissing right? Please tell me he is kidding and doesn't honestly believe this.

If auspexes stacked, they would be standard equipment for Marines players. Instead, I can't say I have seen a list that used one. Ever.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If auspexes stacked, they would be standard equipment for Marines players. Instead, I can't say I have seen a list that used one. Ever.

I take 'em on cc hq characters so that they can contribute a little while waiting to get up close.

Its only 5 pts so its not that big of a deal. I really WISH they did stack, and that tactical sgts could take them.

That would change tacticals from sub-par to awesome synergy units in an instant.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If auspexes stacked, they would be standard equipment for Marines players. Instead, I can't say I have seen a list that used one. Ever.

I take 'em on cc hq characters so that they can contribute a little while waiting to get up close.

Its only 5 pts so its not that big of a deal. I really WISH they did stack, and that tactical sgts could take them.

That would change tacticals from sub-par to awesome synergy units in an instant.

my mistake they do not stack. Tho every HQ or what not that can take it should, take it on a Libby in a 3 man cent squad, -1 cover or anything that can ignore or take away cover is a huge thing in the current meta

Orks vs Battle Sisters.

Seriously. The Orks are screwed.

Dman137 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If auspexes stacked, they would be standard equipment for Marines players. Instead, I can't say I have seen a list that used one. Ever.

I take 'em on cc hq characters so that they can contribute a little while waiting to get up close.

Its only 5 pts so its not that big of a deal. I really WISH they did stack, and that tactical sgts could take them.

That would change tacticals from sub-par to awesome synergy units in an instant.

my mistake they do not stack. Tho every HQ or what not that can take it should, take it on a Libby in a 3 man cent squad, -1 cover or anything that can ignore or take away cover is a huge thing in the current meta

Maybe YOU should look at the $60 book before you shoot your mouth off.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA hand out FNP to large sections of the list. FNP that battle cannons and other STR 8 ordinance happens to ignore. And the IG weapons look at lot better when they aren't insta-deleted by vanilla marine shenanigans. Getting to fire 2-3 times means a lot more BA get blown up before assault happens.

How many IG armies are packing battlecannons these days? Relatively few.

A 5+ cover save and a modicum of spread will generally thin out expected casualties such that a Russ tank usually isn't killing anything more than a couple of HWS's typically would. Yeah, if they land a juicy hit on a squad in the open, that's gonna suck, but I can count the number of times I've seen that happen in the last two editions on one hand.

Likewise, how are battlecannons more effective against BA's than say, Space Wolves?

They aren't negating the FNP that Space Wolves didn't pay for. Battle cannons don't double out TWC, and SW use drop pods with impunity. When BA use drop pods, it turns off our chapter tactic.

Turns off your chapter tactic because your pod guys are instantly assaulted to death by guard infantry? Mkay.

I get that BA are in a bad place but your ability to divert any conversation to that is a bit grating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ionusx wrote:
orks versus dark angels. magic is the dark angels strong suit and interromancy capitalizes on the orks biggest weakness his bad leadership values. in addition the ravenwing are ridiuclously fast compared to the slow ponderous ork armies that excel at out maneuvering slow armies. with the over abundance of large blast plates from the lsv, and dark talon mean that the orks literally are beaten before the match begins. it comes down to how many dark angels the orks can take with them before the end of the game

This is true. I've eaten a green tide in 2 turns with a optimized ravenwing + conclave list. Poor ork dude just moved stuff up and put it back in the case.

Worst matchups I've seen:

DE vs Tau or IG. IG tend to use a lot of mech, which DE struggles with at the best of times, and basically just ignores most of DE's strengths (T3 troops don't care about poison, Ignores Cover weapons don't care about Jink, etc.). Tau are even more adept at removing cover, and even their basic troops make short work of DE vehicles.

DE vs Eldar. "Anything you can do, we can do better..."

Coven DE vs GKs. An army that relies on multiple wounds and FNP for protection vs. an army of Force Weapons. Riiight.

Orks vs GKs. Might depend on the ork list (there's only one GK list, after all ), but I've seen GKs roll orks many times.

GKs vs Grav-spam SM/DA. Do I even need to explain this one?

Any one if the Space Marine formations can be taken as its own Detachment to any Battle Brothers army.