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KnuckleWolf wrote:
Well, you could ask for an Age of Sigmar style rule set and then none of your models are bad if you and your opponent agree to fair games of your own design. Just saying. I'm down for that.

2 hours of what is fair and what can and cant be used before the game starts is not something I am down for. Would quit immediatley. If they just did their damn job you would HAVE to argue about what is broken or allowed, you would pick based on points and have balance built in. We shouldnt have to do a game developers job.

Gw missed the train on that.

Updated berserker kit aside,we don't even have a Chaos lord on juggernaut model!!!!

How is the best Hq option in the kdk book not even exist in the model line??????

Gw should have made me CEO their profits would explode with the sheer amount of happy customers throwing their life savings at me in joy.

Dark Vengeance set aside, we don't even have a Chosen model.

Don't worry - I'm sure very soon they'll give CSM their decurion. It'll be something that emphasizes the unique character of the army. So maybe like a detachment that gives Champions of Chaos two(!!!) rolls on the Chaos Boon table when they kill an enemy character! And maybe the core formation (3 CSM, 1 havocs, 1 possessed) gives everyone Fear for free! And if you take 2 of them then every model that can take it gets Veterans of the Long War for free! To balance these bonuses out all enemy Space Marines will gain Hatred (Chaos Space Marines) for free.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Don't worry - I'm sure very soon they'll give CSM their decurion. It'll be something that emphasizes the unique character of the army. So maybe like a detachment that gives Champions of Chaos two(!!!) rolls on the Chaos Boon table when they kill an enemy character! And maybe the core formation (3 CSM, 1 havocs, 1 possessed) gives everyone Fear for free! And if you take 2 of them then every model that can take it gets Veterans of the Long War for free! To balance these bonuses out all enemy Space Marines will gain Hatred (Chaos Space Marines) for free.

That sounds about right... Though I'm sure we'll also get the incredibly OP ability to take free Flamers & Heavy bolters, but we'll lose access to Plasma guns because... 'Reasons'.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Don't worry - I'm sure very soon they'll give CSM their decurion. It'll be something that emphasizes the unique character of the army. So maybe like a detachment that gives Champions of Chaos two(!!!) rolls on the Chaos Boon table when they kill an enemy character! And maybe the core formation (3 CSM, 1 havocs, 1 possessed) gives everyone Fear for free! And if you take 2 of them then every model that can take it gets Veterans of the Long War for free! To balance these bonuses out all enemy Space Marines will gain Hatred (Chaos Space Marines) for free.

Come on, guys. if you keep suggesting OP stuff like this, you'll only be setting yourselves up for a letdown.

They should add a 3x cultist unit formation where they can deep strike for free and assault the same turn they arrive!

"The Tau treatment"? So you want a copy/paste Chaos codex, which fixes absolutely nothing that needed to be fixed, but which gives you a couple new units (likely with terrible models as that's just how GW do) and a stupid detachment that makes the list you were already running even better?

 Sidstyler wrote:
"The Tau treatment"? So you want a copy/paste Chaos codex, which fixes absolutely nothing that needed to be fixed, but which gives you a couple new units (likely with terrible models as that's just how GW do) and a stupid detachment that makes the list you were already running even better?

I don't think "even better" is an appropriate choice of words when discussing CSM since that implies what you were running before was good.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
"The Tau treatment"? So you want a copy/paste Chaos codex, which fixes absolutely nothing that needed to be fixed, but which gives you a couple new units (likely with terrible models as that's just how GW do) and a stupid detachment that makes the list you were already running even better?

I don't think "even better" is an appropriate choice of words when discussing CSM since that implies what you were running before was good.

Hey now, my 3 Noise Marines units w/ Blastmaster and three blasters each and 5 Spawn with an overcosted biker Lord are alright!

You know, at holding objectives. As long as there's a pile of Daemonettes, Seekers, Soul Grinders and Heralds doing the heavy lifting of course.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
"The Tau treatment"? So you want a copy/paste Chaos codex, which fixes absolutely nothing that needed to be fixed, but which gives you a couple new units (likely with terrible models as that's just how GW do) and a stupid detachment that makes the list you were already running even better?

I don't think "even better" is an appropriate choice of words when discussing CSM since that implies what you were running before was good.

Good? Chaos are just too old and nerfed to ever be good im afraid. I have seen them achieve things.... When a certain friend of mine used two massively OP special characters he had homebrewed for 'fun' but in the end they still died to a three Leman Russ command troop of which two where BT's and one an Eradicator.
I all honesty one of the other people in this thread was right when he mentioned the 2003 Eye of Terror campaign than saw the Imperium wiped out. Now that could have been a good thing as the imperium being shattered and the last remaining fragments desperately trying to survive on their own as the Old Night drew back in would have been an amazing setting but noooo, GW where horrified that anyone could dare to stand against the wrath of the Space Smurfs and so the great nerfing of the CSM began. Coincidentally it was around that time that the regular Marines began to get buffed too.

IG. Holding out for that. Beyond that my interest in 40k is pretty much limited to whatever Gaunt's Ghosts boks come out and FFG's 40k RPGs come out at this point. I think the only thing thatever got my interest peaked was the Admech release, which was nice, even if the Skiitari don't look anything like what I imagined reading Titanicus. Beyond that, Orks and Tyrannids and CSM do need updates, and I hope they get them, it's a shame that the best flavorful factions IMO always get the nerfbat.

Seriously, I'd take any of them being completely OP over ELVES IN SPACE or TOMB KINGS IN SPACE or even MECHA IN...WHERE IT'S SUPPOSED TO BLOODY BE. And yes, Orks are technically ORCS IN SPACE, but they are to dang aweosome and not may sue like to be included.

I honestly hope CSM gets revamped or buffed or something, honestly, I just want all the armies to be equal in power.
*Gets thrown out of plane by GW CEO Tom Kirby*
*Gets shot in in mid air my GW CFO Kevin Rontree*

Who am I trying to fool hear that'll never happen.

I have a feeling that something big will happen soon-ish, but then again I could be wrong.

But we can ALL agree on one thing though.... Eldar have to many D-weapons

And like I said, "the Tau treatment" isn't going to do jack gak for CSM. The book needs to be completely rewritten and designed, and there needs to be a massive reboot of the miniature line to go with it, since not only are they one of the crappiest armies but they're also the worst-looking. Copy/pasting the current codex and giving you formations is still going to leave CSM on the bottom tier.

Tau treatment? They got some ok stuff, moved to upper mid tier, and can get lucky with the top three with a good general. You want that? They aren't that great.

 Sidstyler wrote:
And like I said, "the Tau treatment" isn't going to do jack gak for CSM. The book needs to be completely rewritten and designed, and there needs to be a massive reboot of the miniature line to go with it, since not only are they one of the crappiest armies but they're also the worst-looking. Copy/pasting the current codex and giving you formations is still going to leave CSM on the bottom tier.

Even if they don't rewrite the book, formations may help. Instead of Mark of Nurgle, Formation of Nurgle gives everyone +1 Toughness and Feel No Pain. Similar things for the others. Getting rid of the Marks, making our stuff Fearless, and getting something that can compete with a <Insert faction> Knight would all help tone down the costs involved. But really, it's the same issue Space Wolves and Blood Angels have. Close combat army in a meta that hates close combat.

When it comes to Chaos I think it would be better for them to go with a series of Demonkin books rather then a single Chaos Space Marine Codex. Khorne Demonkin is a pretty solid book and I think if all of the other "Gods" got the same treatment it would go a long way in solving a lot of Chaos' problems. They could even remake the "Black Legion" Codex for those that want to run a pure Chaos Space Marine book for those players not interested in demons.

 Gamgee wrote:
The Tau will get the Tau treatment and sooner than you think given our new found popularity.

Warzone: Monte'ka I'm betting we'll see unique models/suits/options for FSE in the book.

With Farssight stuff in it as well as the inevitable defeat of one of the largest crusades the Imperium of Man has ever launched at anything let alone the "weak" Tau Empire.

It will be defeated because it was foretold by a Grey Knight/Farsight/Prophecy.

Edit
It remains to be seen who will win the Tau/Admech FW book though.

*that an Alpha Legionnaire predicted, since he claimed to have no Chapter and was 'Legion'. Just because he wore Grey Armour, doesn't mean he was a Grey Knight. And it's not the biggest Crusade ever, you have the Sabbat Worlds, Macharius and the after math, the Great Crusade, the Scouring...

And all the Farsight update will give (if there is one, which is an assumption that has no basis seeing that the Eldar Iyanden book was never updated) is troop choice Crisis suits and his body guard characters, just like last time. Your assuming they'll release new Tau models after this literal downpour of models? There's what, 9 new kits? (Crisis Suits, Crisis Commander, Stormsurge, Ghostkeel, Fire Warriors, Ethereal, each Fortification section...) I think you are dreaming, kid.

The Crusade has to lose because the Tau have to exist, but that doesn't mean the Tau are going to get off easy. Probably will lose everything they've gained under Shadowsun and Aun'va, to show the Tau the soul crushing futility of their efforts in the Galaxy.

And, because, you know, to make it despite the fact that Farsight won the day, it's Grim Dark Pyrrhic victory where nobody wins.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
The Tau will get the Tau treatment and sooner than you think given our new found popularity.

Warzone: Monte'ka I'm betting we'll see unique models/suits/options for FSE in the book.

With Farssight stuff in it as well as the inevitable defeat of one of the largest crusades the Imperium of Man has ever launched at anything let alone the "weak" Tau Empire.

It will be defeated because it was foretold by a Grey Knight/Farsight/Prophecy.

Edit
It remains to be seen who will win the Tau/Admech FW book though.

*that an Alpha Legionnaire predicted, since he claimed to have no Chapter and was 'Legion'. Just because he wore Grey Armour, doesn't mean he was a Grey Knight. And it's not the biggest Crusade ever, you have the Sabbat Worlds, Macharius and the after math, the Great Crusade, the Scouring...

And all the Farsight update will give (if there is one, which is an assumption that has no basis seeing that the Eldar Iyanden book was never updated) is troop choice Crisis suits and his body guard characters, just like last time. Your assuming they'll release new Tau models after this literal downpour of models? There's what, 9 new kits? (Crisis Suits, Crisis Commander, Stormsurge, Ghostkeel, Fire Warriors, Ethereal, each Fortification section...) I think you are dreaming, kid.

The Crusade has to lose because the Tau have to exist, but that doesn't mean the Tau are going to get off easy. Probably will lose everything they've gained under Shadowsun and Aun'va, to show the Tau the soul crushing futility of their efforts in the Galaxy.

And, because, you know, to make it despite the fact that Farsight won the day, it's Grim Dark Pyrrhic victory where nobody wins.

Nah they'll win and push back once again and again. Until the Imperium is nothing. Learning of the futility of trying to stop the Tau from our ascendancy.

 Gamgee wrote:
Nah they'll win and push back once again and again. Until the Imperium is nothing. Learning of the futility of trying to stop the Tau from our ascendancy.

God, the 42nd millenium would be tedious with the grey freaks in charge. I'd rather the Tyranids got everything...

 master of ordinance wrote:

I all honesty one of the other people in this thread was right when he mentioned the 2003 Eye of Terror campaign than saw the Imperium wiped out. Now that could have been a good thing as the imperium being shattered and the last remaining fragments desperately trying to survive on their own as the Old Night drew back in would have been an amazing setting but noooo, GW where horrified that anyone could dare to stand against the wrath of the Space Smurfs and so the great nerfing of the CSM began. Coincidentally it was around that time that the regular Marines began to get buffed too.

I think that sort of change would have vastly improved the game and the fluff.

For one thing, SMs might have come across as actually heroic - fighting against insurmountable odds. Instead, we're stuck with GW's idea of 'heroic' - wherein the heroes are stupidly overpowered, and can effortlessly vaporise any of the evil armies.

I will predict that we won't hear a single whiff of "real" info on Chaos getting updated until after 'Nids, Guard and likely both Wolves & BA's get updated...

Then there's at least a semi-decent chance that Daemons will get a new book, which will be followed immediately by a new Grey Knights book that turns out to once more be a 110% pure hard counter with the ability to effortlessly auto-win any & all games against Daemons. Again.

Chaos Marines won't get any attention until after Dark Eldar & Orks get their 7.5 books, at which point GW will do an about face and decide that everything needs to be toned way the feth down for the sake of "balance", at which point we'll get a new Chaos Marine codex that removed half our options and has us paying 30pts a pop for a basic Marine.

It's how GW rolls... Chaos players aren't allowed to compete, because heaven forbid we actually kill Little Timmy's precious Mehreeens.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I will predict that we won't hear a single whiff of "real" info on Chaos getting updated until after 'Nids, Guard and likely both Wolves & BA's get updated...

Then there's at least a semi-decent chance that Daemons will get a new book, which will be followed immediately by a new Grey Knights book that turns out to once more be a 110% pure hard counter with the ability to effortlessly auto-win any & all games against Daemons. Again.

Chaos Marines won't get any attention until after Dark Eldar & Orks get their 7.5 books, at which point GW will do an about face and decide that everything needs to be toned way the feth down for the sake of "balance", at which point we'll get a new Chaos Marine codex that removed half our options and has us paying 30pts a pop for a basic Marine.

It's how GW rolls... Chaos players aren't allowed to compete, because heaven forbid we actually kill Little Timmy's precious Mehreeens.

If GW's sales don't go well this next few months - say, until xmas - I guarantee you that a CSM release will be coming within the year.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Chaos Marines won't get any attention until after Dark Eldar & Orks get their 7.5 books

What on earth makes you think DE and Orks are getting new books before 8th or 9th edition?

Experiment 626 wrote:
I will predict that we won't hear a single whiff of "real" info on Chaos getting updated until after 'Nids, Guard and likely both Wolves & BA's get updated...

Then there's at least a semi-decent chance that Daemons will get a new book, which will be followed immediately by a new Grey Knights book that turns out to once more be a 110% pure hard counter with the ability to effortlessly auto-win any & all games against Daemons. Again.

It's how GW rolls... Chaos players aren't allowed to compete, because heaven forbid we actually kill Little Timmy's precious Mehreeens.

As I said, GW thinks that in order to be heroic, models must be outright better than any possible opposition.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

If GW's sales don't go well this next few months - say, until xmas - I guarantee you that a CSM release will be coming within the year.

With a huge slew of new kits for Tau AND Horus Heresy in plastic!!! on tap, I think GW will be swimming through oceans of money by Xmas this year!

 vipoid wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Chaos Marines won't get any attention until after Dark Eldar & Orks get their 7.5 books

What on earth makes you think DE and Orks are getting new books before 8th or 9th edition?

My well founded pessimism as a long suffering Chaos player of course.

I'd be willing to bet having to wear a Maple Leafs jersey for an entire month that *IF* we get updated, it won't be until just before/after 8th edition drops, AND, we won't see any new/redone kits we actually need.
My bet is for a half baked codex that fixes nothing, removes options, and 2-3 "new" kits which will be Khorne and/or Nurgle themed, while keeping the rest of our gak-fest model line firmly stuck in early 4th edition. (because god forbid we ever get something more effective than an Autocannon!)

Yes, I'm bitter... Just like all of my brethren.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
And like I said, "the Tau treatment" isn't going to do jack gak for CSM. The book needs to be completely rewritten and designed, and there needs to be a massive reboot of the miniature line to go with it, since not only are they one of the crappiest armies but they're also the worst-looking. Copy/pasting the current codex and giving you formations is still going to leave CSM on the bottom tier.

Even if they don't rewrite the book, formations may help. Instead of Mark of Nurgle, Formation of Nurgle gives everyone +1 Toughness and Feel No Pain. Similar things for the others. Getting rid of the Marks, making our stuff Fearless, and getting something that can compete with a <Insert faction> Knight would all help tone down the costs involved. But really, it's the same issue Space Wolves and Blood Angels have. Close combat army in a meta that hates close combat.

They should do both. With the Nurgle you just get the +1 toughness, but with a formation of Nurgle it should be the +1 toughness and some extras. Maybe since they are all together there is some kind of cloud of rot around them for maybe a cover bonus.

That would be cool, all 4 chaos gods having a book.

Sorry not on topic but when is the new CSM codex released?

why do all threads related to balance devolve into csm players whining (not saying they dont have any reason, just why dont you guys make a thread that is titled "whine about your csm!")

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Now that Tau are on the same level as other rated B and A factions, when will C and D rated factions get the same level of power as factions like Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Marines, etc. I'm curious, I want to start my 2nd army towards the start of next year. So far I'm leaning towards Tau,
anyone want to persuade me to field a different faction? I'm open to all opinions.

Astra Militarum have been good ever since I've known about them. they have an answer for all unit types nd toughness's. They compete in every phase. They are bulky, and opponents enjoy playing them because when the opponents shoot, things die a lot which on some human level makes them more "fun to play against", kinda like orks. So if Tau Empire (which has been my favorite faction) isnt your thing, Astra Militarum are pretty fun and painting them is pretty fun to if you like painting (I dont, yet i enjoyed painting my IG).

That's food for thought.