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 Ustis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Or you could just look at the rules? Maybe write then down somewhere handy? Not as if they aren't everywhere...

I was referring to whether I would need to own the official published rules in the campaign book to use the formations in a game at my local games workshop/ tournament.

Ain't a download enough? You have the rules on hands, can show them to the opponent.

But the shop's policy is understandable. They want your money.

 koooaei wrote:

 Ustis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Or you could just look at the rules? Maybe write then down somewhere handy? Not as if they aren't everywhere...

I was referring to whether I would need to own the official published rules in the campaign book to use the formations in a game at my local games workshop/ tournament.

Ain't a download enough? You have the rules on hands, can show them to the opponent.

But the shop's policy is understandable. They want your money.

Yeah I'm just gunna get a pdf from a trusted site of mine, but I only asked as I wasn't sure if GW staff and players of the community are demanding of the physical rules set like with codexs.

Interesting fun note(s):

1) you do not need the battlegroup detatchment to be a cadian detachment(it just has some decent rules). This means the formations alone, or a Cad can benefit from the relics and warlord traits as long as you do not take Straken, Harker, Nork, or Yarrik.

2) you can take the battlegroup with just a Co Command Squad(and lord commissar if you want). This gives you 3 orders plus any extras from warlord traits. But no rang bonus.

3) using 2, you can also take some of the auxiliary formations(just as formations) withou worrying about points and the Core choices tax.

4) there is quite a bit of flexibility with this.

I think a good IG army base now is the Assault Company formation plus the Artillery Company formation. You get 4 orders, 4 Obsec units, and some decent bonus rules to buff your shooting with minimal unit taxes.

Sales of basilisks must be skyrocketing. There is definite counter to jink heavy armies like darkshroud ravenwing. Not much help having 2+ jink if you're suffering instant death to all models under a str9 ap3 pie-plate with twin linked and ignores cover.

I for one shall be purchasing artillery.

Well, that makes me sad, Kel, I missed the part about range only working within the same detachment.

I suppose I should drop that 10 / 10 now. :(

While high command range only works within the detatchment, that means that both voice of command warlord traits from the IG dex still stack with the co com from the battlegroup(sure #5 is only 18", but it is 18" to anyone).

I also noticed another interesting bit now that I have gotten a chance to bring up my guard dex on my computer(never attached it to my phone account and the girlfriend was watching shows on netflix all evening):
If you take an IG CAD, a battlegroup and/or formations, then all company and platoon command squads will allow you to take commissars(in the CAD; but added to any specified units in the army). This is mostly due to old codex syndrome; but the Commissar unlock(in the commissar entry, which is why it does not work with just the formations; you must have the CAD as an ala carte) simply states for each command squad in your army. 2 CADs or ADs of IG have always done the same thing, but the commissars fit into each just as much as 1.

Now with the Cadian detatchment rules, you could take 2 CADs of IG, 1 cadian and the other vanilla; and add a Commissar to the Cadian CAD for each platoon or company command squad in both.

Any info on relics and warlord traits? Could only find pics with german texts and i'm not great with german, unfortunately.

Traits aren't as bad as some think:
-Zealot
-Bonus BS for warlord, slightly less bonus BS for his unit(a lord commissar or withchfire-heavy primaris with this trait in a unit of veterans means they all miss only on 1s, and the warlord will have a high bs reroll. Also good for an IC warlord in a massive gunline blob).
-warlord becomes a master of ordnance
-units within laspistol range of warlord ignore 25% casualties
-bonus order/turn
-all characters in any cadian detachment have to issue/accept challenges, reroll failed hits and wounds(makes the first relic even better)

Relics:
-Master crafted chainsword, in a challenge it acts as an iron halo and for every invul save passed you get to make an auto-hit rending attack(even if your model died to some of the attacks).
-Tank commander vox that lets tank commander orders also apply to any other russ squadrons within laspistol range.
-a S+2 ap 3 bionic arm and power sword(the bit in the cadian command squad box).
-a regimental standard that lets you make the unit immobile for the rest of the game but also makes any Cadian units within fusion pike range fearless.
- a swagger-stick that lets units within walking distance pass orders on anything but boxcars(ap 4 concussive).
-mostly regular laspistol but adds 50% wound chance and armour saves always fail on a 3 or less(if it would have passed otherwise).

Relics note: technically the standard can never be taken. The vox is granted permission in the same paragraph as the permission to take any of these relics, a company command veteran has no permission to access the relics(obv the relic can be purchaced RAI, and you have my permission to crotch-shot anyone who tries to pull that).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Relics note: technically the standard can never be taken. The vox is granted permission in the same paragraph as the permission to take any of these relics, a company command veteran has no permission to access the relics(obv the relic can be purchaced RAI, and you have my permission to crotch-shot anyone who tries to pull that).

And as RAW.

One Veteran in the army that can carry a regimental standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th

A model that could normally carry a Regimental Standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th.

That seems pretty clear cut, much like how the Raven Guard's Relic Sniper Rifle reads as

Veteran Scout Sergeant only. Replaces the model's boltgun.

These items are in the Relic list but rather than being available strictly to models that have access to the Relics list, they specifically allow them for models that normally do not have access to Relics.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Interesting fun note(s):

1) you do not need the battlegroup detatchment to be a cadian detachment(it just has some decent rules). This means the formations alone, or a Cad can benefit from the relics and warlord traits as long as you do not take Straken, Harker, Nork, or Yarrik.

I understand this from a fluff perspective, but is there anything in the rules that actually restricts you from using those characters? Whats to stop you from just calling them cadian?

 Dramagod2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Interesting fun note(s):

1) you do not need the battlegroup detatchment to be a cadian detachment(it just has some decent rules). This means the formations alone, or a Cad can benefit from the relics and warlord traits as long as you do not take Straken, Harker, Nork, or Yarrik.

I understand this from a fluff perspective, but is there anything in the rules that actually restricts you from using those characters? Whats to stop you from just calling them cadian?

Yes.

Mont'Ka" page 50 wrote:CADIAN DETACHMENT SPECIAL RULES
Detachments in your army that are chosen from Codex: Astra Militarum, and that do not contain any unique characters other than Lord Castellan Creed, Colour Sergeant Kell and/or Knight Commander Pask, can be Cadian Detachments. Any Cadian Detachments in your army use the following special rule in addition to those present in their codex.

HEIRLOOMS OF CADIA
Units in a Cadian Detachment that can normally take items from the Heirlooms of Conquest list in Codex: Astra Militarum can choose to take items from the Heirlooms of Cadia list (pg 51) at the points cost shown instead. You can take items from both lists in the Detachment. A single Tank Commander in a Cadian Detachment may be equipped with Kabe's Herald.

Really don't know why they bothered with that line since Kabe's Herald is a Relic and only one per army, but there you go.

So...really, they decided that the regiment without enough representation in Astra Militarum was...cadia.

Cadia, ie pretty much every freakin model.

This is like if the next codex release was codex: ultramarines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eh, who am I kidding. It's like with Codex: Ghazghkull or Codex: Khorne. GW gives the sub factions that already have rules and models more rules and models because they're lazy.

the_scotsman wrote:
So...really, they decided that the regiment without enough representation in Astra Militarum was...cadia.

Cadia, ie pretty much every freakin model.

This is like if the next codex release was codex: ultramarines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eh, who am I kidding. It's like with Codex: Ghazghkull or Codex: Khorne. GW gives the sub factions that already have rules and models more rules and models because they're lazy.

Mainly for the Cadians because Cadians are the ones they actually have models for.
Why write rules for Vostroyans/Tallarn/Steel Legion when they mainly produce Cadian models? Especially if they won't put out specialist rules for these guys unless they did models as well. And they aren't yet.

Doing a release for Cadians makes the most sense as Cadians are the ones with full model ranges.

the_scotsman wrote:
So...really, they decided that the regiment without enough representation in Astra Militarum was...cadia.

Cadia, ie pretty much every freakin model.

This is like if the next codex release was codex: ultramarines.

Eh, who am I kidding. It's like with Codex: Ghazghkull or Codex: Khorne.

GW gives the sub factions that already have rules and models more rules and models because they're lazy.

Yeah. Big Cadia.

Except for Ratlings and Rough Riders...

2E *was* Codex: Ultramarines; "Codex: Space Marines" didn't exist until 3E.

Codex: Khorne Daemonkin is a thing, right?

GW has done sub-factions rules since 2E with Codex: Spayz Woofs, Blud Angles and Dark Angles.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Relics note: technically the standard can never be taken. The vox is granted permission in the same paragraph as the permission to take any of these relics, a company command veteran has no permission to access the relics(obv the relic can be purchaced RAI, and you have my permission to crotch-shot anyone who tries to pull that).

And as RAW.

One Veteran in the army that can carry a regimental standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th

A model that could normally carry a Regimental Standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th.

That seems pretty clear cut, much like how the Raven Guard's Relic Sniper Rifle reads as

Veteran Scout Sergeant only. Replaces the model's boltgun.

These items are in the Relic list but rather than being available strictly to models that have access to the Relics list, they specifically allow them for models that normally do not have access to Relics.

How is the veteran that could carry a regimental standard accessing the relics list to gain that permission?

The permission exists in a list of items the veteran does not have access to. It would be the exact same as having a notation in the melee weapons list that a veteran with a med-pack could take a power fist. The medic has no access to the melee weapons list so the notation is meaningless by RAW.

It is the same as Commissars, Priests, and Primaris psykers in formations; thier rules state they can be added to armies without taking slots and under certain restrictions, but slots only exist in FOCs and unless a formation specifies those unit entries they are not allowed in the formation(effectively you have no access or permission to look at thier entries).

Luckily the servitors entry is accessed through the engineseer's entry so are allowed in formations where he exists(like dts)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Traits aren't as bad as some think:
-Zealot
-Bonus BS for warlord, slightly less bonus BS for his unit(a lord commissar or withchfire-heavy primaris with this trait in a unit of veterans means they all miss only on 1s, and the warlord will have a high bs reroll. Also good for an IC warlord in a massive gunline blob).
-warlord becomes a master of ordnance
-units within laspistol range of warlord ignore 25% casualties
-bonus order/turn
-all characters in any cadian detachment have to issue/accept challenges, reroll failed hits and wounds(makes the first relic even better)

Relics:
-Master crafted chainsword, in a challenge it acts as an iron halo and for every invul save passed you get to make an auto-hit rending attack(even if your model died to some of the attacks).
-Tank commander vox that lets tank commander orders also apply to any other russ squadrons within laspistol range.
-a S+2 ap 3 bionic arm and power sword(the bit in the cadian command squad box).
-a regimental standard that lets you make the unit immobile for the rest of the game but also makes any Cadian units within fusion pike range fearless.
- a swagger-stick that lets units within walking distance pass orders on anything but boxcars(ap 4 concussive).
-mostly regular laspistol but adds 50% wound chance and armour saves always fail on a 3 or less(if it would have passed otherwise).

Relics note: technically the standard can never be taken. The vox is granted permission in the same paragraph as the permission to take any of these relics, a company command veteran has no permission to access the relics(obv the relic can be purchaced RAI, and you have my permission to crotch-shot anyone who tries to pull that).

thx a lot! The bosspole is the best thing ever. Especially for artillery formation. Pistol is great in combination with plazma pistol. As i see it, you take as many decurion comsquads with specials as you need. Than load on droppods. At least 1 squad is good to have plazma. And commander is gona rock 2 decent pistols.

All in all, something tells me it's the most competitive way of running guard decurion in enviroments without detachment limits.

Ps; the relics of the ravenspire does give specific permission for the sniper rifle, in exactly the same way that the tank commander is granted access to the vox.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Ps; the relics of the ravenspire does give specific permission for the sniper rifle, in exactly the same way that the tank commander is granted access to the vox.

And the EXACT same way that the Standard of the Lost 113th does.

Read the entry.

One Veteran in the army that can carry a regimental standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th..

What are the qualifiers for a Veteran in the army to carry a regimental standard?
A) Be part of a Company Command Squad
B)Not be carrying a Vox-Caster, Heavy Flamer, Medi-Pack, be part of a Veteran Weapons Team, or have been upgraded with a choice from the Special Weapons list.

I mean if you want to play "RAW", then you really better understand that RAW?

It SPECIFICALLY GRANTS PERMISSION for a Veteran who could otherwise carry a Regimental Standard to instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why write rules for Vostroyans/Tallarn/Steel Legion when they mainly produce Cadian models? Especially if they won't put out specialist rules for these guys unless they did models as well. And they aren't yet.

GW still sells models for Tallarn, Mordian, Catachan, Vostroyan and others. The metals are currently available on the website at a very minimal increase over the ugly plastic, and a number of options are still available as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Ps; the relics of the ravenspire does give specific permission for the sniper rifle, in exactly the same way that the tank commander is granted access to the vox.

And the EXACT same way that the Standard of the Lost 113th does.

Read the entry.

One Veteran in the army that can carry a regimental standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th..

What are the qualifiers for a Veteran in the army to carry a regimental standard?
A) Be part of a Company Command Squad
B)Not be carrying a Vox-Caster, Heavy Flamer, Medi-Pack, be part of a Veteran Weapons Team, or have been upgraded with a choice from the Special Weapons list.

I mean if you want to play "RAW", then you really better understand that RAW?

It SPECIFICALLY GRANTS PERMISSION for a Veteran who could otherwise carry a Regimental Standard to instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th.

You are so sorely mistaken.
RAW; the Ravenguard Veteran Sgt, Tank Commander, and Company command standrad bearer have no permission to access any relics list on their own. They have no access to look at the items who's rules specify they may have them.

Both the raven guard vet sgt and the tank commander DO have specific rules that grant them allowance to purchase the 1 specific relic.

If you would bother to read the rules for how the raven guard or cadian detatchments get access to their specific relic lists you could note the last line:

Warzone Kayaun, Raven guard Special Rules, Relics of the Ravenspire: "A single scout veteran sergeant in your army may replace his boltgun with nihilus."

Warzone Montka, Forces of Cadia, heirlooms of cadia: " A single Tank Commander in a Cadian detachment may be equipped with Kabe's herald."

That is specific permission for those 2 models to access the relics, no such specific permission actually exists for the standard bearing company command veteran. Theregore, technically, by pure RAW, the veteran cannot ever purchase the relic standard.

RAI is incredibly clear that the veteran can take the lost 113th standard, but that permission is never actually given in any rules as it is for the other 2.

Or do you think that I could give the iron left to a random PIS sgt since there is no restriction nor specification on whom it may be given to?

What part of "One Veteran in the army that can carry a regimental standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th. " is unclear to you?

They don't need to preclear every single item.

Additionally, that comparison about "The Iron Left" compared to the Standard is disingenuous and you very well ought to know better. There is nothing stating that "A model with access to the Melee Weapons list can instead choose to take The Iron Left" like they so clearly spell out with the access for Standard of the Lost 113th.

Let's go back to the first sentence then, shall we?

Who has access to the heirlooms of Cadia?

"Units in a Cadian detatchment that can normally take items from the Heirlooms of conquest list in codex: astra Militarum can choose to take items from the heirlooms of cadia list for the points cost shown instead."

Now can the standard bearing Veteran take items from the heirlooms of conquest?

So he has no access to that list. That list may have an item that says a specific model can take it, but the rest of the rules do not allow him to any more than the pis sgt can take the iron left.

Permissive ruleset; you need permission to take items from the codex relics before you have access to the items from the warzone relics. The same rule that grants that permission ends with granting permission for the other 2 models to take their specified items.

The only thing that line you keep shouting actually does is prevent you from taking the standard on a company commander or a lord commissar(because neither of those are veterans who could normally take a regimental standard)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly it could say "A termagaunt with a fleshborer..." for all the validity of who has access to it.

It literally says
"One Veteran in the army that can carry a regimental standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th."

You are arguing
"One Veteran in the army that can carry a regimental standard can't instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th."

This isn't a raw issue, this isn't a rai issue.
It couldnt be any clearer.

It literally tells you one Veteran in the army that can carry a regimental standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th, therefore one Veteran in the army that can carry a regimental standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th.

You cannot argue against it. It is as clearcut as raw gets.

This is about as ridiculous an argument as it gets.

The Relic says that certain Veterans may purchase it. 40k being permissive, RAW is pretty clear cut here.

Now, if there were a "No Veteran may purchase Relics", or "no model in this detachment / unit / formation may purchase Relics", then there might be an issue, because there would be an actual rules conflict. And even then, the Relic would win, because it says it can.

The fact that the rest of the rulebook is silent isn't an issue. Because you know what? There aren't any specific rules that say "Veterans may Run". But the Rulebook says that Infantry may Run, and we're OK with that.

Yes or no: can the regimental standard carrying veteran but the iron left?

Please give a justification to your answer as well.

That is a pretty stupid question, when Kan already answered it for you.

 Kanluwen wrote:
"One Veteran in the army that can carry a regimental standard can instead carry the Standard of the Lost 113th. "

RAW.
___

Oops, Not enough emphasis in the initial quote...

How does the regimental standard bearing veteran access that rule?

The rules give permission to any model that could take an Heirloom of Conquest, to also take items from the Heirlooms of Cadia... but they don't limit the selection of Heirlooms of Cadia to only models that can access Heirlooms of Conquest.

This is the "loophole" that is required.

In this case, the Veteran does not have permission to take the Iron Left, but a Company Commander could.

Similarly, since a Veteran could take a regimental standard, he could take the Banner of you aren't going anywhere, you might as well sit down.

Permissive ruleset.

No permission is given, cannot do it.

Can I randomly smash your models or just punch you in the face midgame? The rules don't tell me I can, but then they don't say I can't either right? The capability is there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or more in line with your statement: relentless.

Relentless states that models with the special rule can move and fire heavy, salvo and ordnance weapons as if stationary(paraphrased); but it doesn't say ONLY models with the relentless special rule, so any model I want can claim the use of the rule, right?