Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

1) slots are relevant because they are part of that rule that lets you take 0-3 detachments. To ignore half-2 thirds of the rule is cherry-picking a desired outcome from the rules while completely ignoring context.

2) read my ppost(and the rule) again. They do not count as mandatory HQ selection, not mandatory slot. Selection is not defined within the rules so we default to a common definition. Formations, and indeed all detachments still maintain the unit entry's battlefield roles. So put those together and the units in your army are all going to be selections of their various battlefield roles; or in otherwords. The Primaris and engineseer in the formations that list them are mandatory, selections, and HQs; so they are mandatory HQ selections - something they never count as by the rules you are applying.

3) Formations tell you exactly what you can have. The only time they tell you what you cannot have is when they are listing specific optiins within a listed unit entry(such as denial of a DT option, which is telling you that you cannot have an entry that is not on the list but is accessed via an entry that is on the list).

4) again; the rules for those HQs per detachment are from an older edition, we have to try to apply them through the current edition's lense. Do you not think that I wou ok d prefer to have at least 1 commissar per Blob in an Emperor's shield company? Commissars are a huge part of my gunline tactics(especially when I go all-infantry) and the battlegroup gives me ample command squads to access enough commissars for every blob; but I can't because commissars are not in any formation other than the psyker one(which has its own set of broken garbage).

It does not matter what the rules for the Primaris Psyker entry states, in a Formation that does not list him, you cannot even look at his entry(you have no permission to)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
It does not matter what the rules for the Primaris Psyker entry states, in a Formation that does not list him, you cannot even look at his entry(you have no permission to)

Hypothetical question: if the rules for the Primaris Psyker instead stated the following:
"Each Astra Militarum detachment (or Formation, even those that do not list Primaris Psykers) may include 0-3 Primaris Psykers. They do not take up a Force Organisation slot, and do not qualify as a mandatory HQ selection."
Then could a Primaris Pskyer be added to a formation (one that doesn't already list Primaris Pskyers), RAW, or would we still be unable to look at those rules?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
It does not matter what the rules for the Primaris Psyker entry states, in a Formation that does not list him, you cannot even look at his entry(you have no permission to)

Awesome. We can quit debating. Kommie doesn't even care what the rules say. Everyone else here thinks they do apply. General consensus has been reached. The explicit Codex permission to add 0-3 Primaris Psykers to ANY Astra Militarum Detachment (Formations are Detachments) outweighs the general BRB permission to only add the units on a Formation's unit entries list.

Done. This thread can be locked. Currently it's just a platform for Kommie to ignore the rules.

It does not matter what the rules for the Primaris Psyker entry states, in a Formation that does not list him, you cannot even look at his entry(you have no permission to)

I could answer the rest of your post but you've destroyed your credibility with this comment. Sorry where do ANY of the rules give us permission to read the rules? Like how do we ever even start reading the rules if you need permission to read rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

It does not matter what the rules for the Primaris Psyker entry states, in a Formation that does not list him, you cannot even look at his entry(you have no permission to)

I could answer the rest of your post but you've destroyed your credibility with this comment. Sorry where do ANY of the rules give us permission to read the rules? Like how do we ever even start reading the rules if you need permission to read rules.

Yeah, total garbage logic right there. You ALWAYS get to read the rules. I agree on the credibility comment. His stance shows a basic lack of understanding of how the rules fundamentally work (i.e., you read them and do what they say).

I didn't say we ignore the entriesc rules, I said they have no bearing in a formation.

For building a formation we have exact unit entries we are permitted to look at for our formation.

So let me put it a different way: If I take just an Emperor's shield company, and I have the following list, is it a legal formation when following the formation rules:

Company command squad with 2 meltas, an astropath casting daemonology, Officer of the fleet and master of ordnance, all in a chimera

3 Platoon command squads with 3 flamers and a medic each, power fist on the commander.

9 units of platoon infantry with plasma and lascannons(3 blobs of 3 squads each with a commissar)

6 units of platoon infantry with heavy bolter and grenade launcher(3 paired blobs with 1 having a commissar)

6 armoured sentinels with plasma cannons(3 paired units)

So, is that list legal or not? Commissars are not in the formation lists, I only have access to them buy following the codex rules over the brb rules on formations, or more specifically the mont'ka listed formations.

If the Codex trumps the rulebook in all cases; then my Astropath cannot have daemonology, which the rulebook says he can. But if the rulebooks rules trump the codex's list here as a newer book: why doesn't Mont'ka's formation lists?

Because Mont'ka says nothing about the Commissars or Primaris Psykers etc. There is no conflict. Codex trumps rulebook is not the same a newer trumps older, codex trumps rulebook is a written rule. Also thanks to FAQs that Astropath does indeed have daemonology otherwise RaW he wouldn't for exactly the reason you stated.

Here's how it works. It is plain and simple.

CAD:
You fill out the Main Requirements for a CAD, therefore you have a Legal DETACHMENT. Primaris Psyker rules for inclusion are activated, you may add 0-3.

Formation:
You look at a formation, you add the units required by the formation. Once minimum unit requirement for that Formation is met, it becomes a legal Formation.

Formations Are Detachments per the rules governing them. Thus it had become a Legal DETACHMENT per the rules, the Primaris Psyker rules are Activated, allowing you to Add 0-3 Extra models in the form of Primaris Psykers to that list.

They are added to the Selected Detachment, in this case a Formation, and as such gain Said formations USRs as they are additions to that specific detachment.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
1) "They do not take up a Force Organization Slot, and do not Qualify as a mandatory HQ selection."
-Part of the 0-3 rule. Pretty sure slots are relevant to the rule since they are part of it.

2) See above: not HQ Slot, HQ selection. Selection is undefined, if you want to take a 6th edition detachment rule and apply it to 7tg edituin changed detachments; then I am going to enforce the difference between Slot and Selection. As Formations are made of Mandatory unit entries, and you it entries are selections from your armylist, then selecting the primaris or enginseer in the formations that require them do not count because of the same rule that lets you take the primaris in the Emperor's wrath formation.

3) Right, right. General permission to select an army, specific permission for what goes into each detachment, even more specific permission for what goes into a specific formation. The formation rules in general are already more specific than FOC army selection method rules. Each Formation itself is more specific than the general rules for formations. As far as Codex trumps rulebook: you have a newer supplement that is bringing you these formations, that alone should trump codex but since we do not have a priority list for warzone and supplement lists, I guess that none of these formations, warlord traits, wargear lists, etc are valid at all for anyone, huh? I mean Codex trumps all, so raven guard, white scars, ad mech, and anyone who didn't buy the new tau dex can all go suck an egg(also those IG formations are useless since they are not in the codex). I me aa n the codex is clearly the most specific thing, right?

4) no. Because I read the rulebook.

Each Astra Militarum detachment may include 0-3 Ministrorum Priests (Primaris Psykers; Enginseers and you may include one unit of Servitors for every Enginseer in your army).

Any Astra Militarum Formation is also an Astra Militarum Detachment, so Combined Arms Detachments and Emperors Shield Formations are both AM detachments.

Not taking up a FO slot and not qualifying as an mandatory HQ is only relevant to Detachments that care about it. Most formations do not, so you can simply ignore that sentence (it doesn't change anything for them).

It is kinda like how most Forgeworld stuff works - but less qualified.

CAD doesn't tell you that you can take a Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer. The Deimos Vindicator itself tells you that you can take him as a Heavy Support choice in any Space Marines Codex (and others). So any Detachment that can choose a Heavy Support and is a Space Marines detachment is able to bring a Vindicator LasDes. If for example the Demi-Company said "pick a heavy support choice" instead of the "Choose between Devas or Cent Devas", you would be able to include it even there.

The Enginseers, Primaris and Priests simply state that you can take them, they do not say that you have to take them as an HQ slot or anything. That is how the rules as written state it.

Is that the intention behind the rules? I'd bet it's not , but instead the result of legacy 6th Ed rules being used in a 7th Ed environment. I'm sure they will change the 3 entries to e.g. Elite slots and remove the whole "0-3 in any detachment" thing altogether or at least limit it to the CAD - and maybe AD. But until then you're free to houserule it to not work with Formations.