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It is not uncommon when the raped get accused. And Sharia nothing to do with. Friends, parents and relatives of the rapist are starting to press, saying it is the victim seduced the rapist to "falsely" accuse it.

Urgh.. Middle east, sharia and that general gak hole region. This stuff happens far too often and we can seem to barely do anything about it.

Some cases like UK citizen caught with alcohol in Saudi, was well dumb. But this one. Different.

 Kojiro wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Moral of the story? Don't go to Islamic countries.

Now now, I'm sure it's purely a cultural thing, that in no way, shape or form draws any inspiration from the glorious religion of peace known as Islam.

The backwards ass view that sex should only be permitted between married couples? Nothing to do with Islam.

The backwards ass idea that a woman's testimony is worth less than a man's*? Nothing to do with Islam.

You do realise that there are at least several million Christians sitting over in the States who believe exactly the same thing in that department, right? Islam/.the Middle-East don't have some universal monopoly on sexism and misogny. Universal suffrage wasn't something that automatically fell into place in the US, the UK, France or any other Western State at the start of the twentieth century. There's a reason that if there's a girl working in a garage even today, you'll get a lot of men assuming she doesn't know what she's talking about.

We need to support these anti democratic virtual theocracies to serve as a bulwark against the fairly progressive and moderate elements that exist across the other side of the Persian Gulf.

Sounds like she got off lightly (by which I mean she hasn't been jailed or lashed as other rape victims have been). Its certainly an outrage, but could have been much worse.

She should pay the fine, and keep her mouth shut until she's back on Dutch soil and therefore untouchable. And then when shes safe, she can go public and condemn Qatar in Dutch media. Embarrass the feth out of them. Damage their reputation as a nation.

If that violates her suspended sentence and Qatar demands she be extradited to serve her sentence, then the Dutch Government/Courts should tell them to go feth themselves.

And any Dutch judge that does order her extradition should be shot. Extraditing a rape victim violates human rights and common decency.

Disgusting.

Stick to this topic please.

 Ketara wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

Moral of the story? Don't go to Islamic countries.

Now now, I'm sure it's purely a cultural thing, that in no way, shape or form draws any inspiration from the glorious religion of peace known as Islam.

The backwards ass view that sex should only be permitted between married couples? Nothing to do with Islam.

The backwards ass idea that a woman's testimony is worth less than a man's*? Nothing to do with Islam.

You do realise that there are at least several million Christians sitting over in the States who believe exactly the same thing in that department, right? Islam/.the Middle-East don't have some universal monopoly on sexism and misogny. Universal suffrage wasn't something that automatically fell into place in the US, the UK, France or any other Western State at the start of the twentieth century. There's a reason that if there's a girl working in a garage even today, you'll get a lot of men assuming she doesn't know what she's talking about.

No disrespect intended, Ketara. But there is world's difference between traditional Christians' views of women and that of Islam. I don't equate the belief of the man being head of household as God is head of the Church, with the Sharia law that women are guilty if they get raped. And I know of no Christians, or any modern mainstream Christian denomination, here in the States (and I live in what is called "The Bible Belt" ) that condones rape, or promotes the idea that the rape victim should be held accountable in a court of law. Sexism, misogny, and the "boys club" mentality that you still see in some areas of life is nowhere close to Sharia treatment of women in Islamic society.


I'm just glad that the Dutch national in question gets to go home, rather than getting imprisoned, flogged, or stoned to death.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

No disrespect intended, Ketara. But there is world's difference between traditional Christians' views of women and that of Islam. I don't equate the belief of the man being head of household as God is head of the Church, with the Sharia law that women are guilty if they get raped. And I know of no Christians, or any modern mainstream Christian denomination, here in the States (and I live in what is called "The Bible Belt" ) that condones rape, or promotes the idea that the rape victim should be held accountable in a court of law. Sexism, misogny, and the "boys club" mentality that you still see in some areas of life is nowhere close to Sharia treatment of women in Islamic society.

But none of that is remotely close to what you said, which was what I responded to. The goalposts there just moved so fast they made a 'whoosh' noise. You said, exactly:-

'The backwards ass view that sex should only be permitted between married couples? Nothing to do with Islam.

The backwards ass idea that a woman's testimony is worth less than a man's*? Nothing to do with Islam.'

Both of these things are found amongst heavily religious sects across the world, Christianity included. If you're going to tell me here and now that hardcore christians in the Bible Belt are out there buying condoms so their daughters can have safe unmarried sex, or pushing their girls to stand up for themselves against misogny, I'm not sure I'd believe you.....

 Ketara wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

No disrespect intended, Ketara. But there is world's difference between traditional Christians' views of women and that of Islam. I don't equate the belief of the man being head of household as God is head of the Church, with the Sharia law that women are guilty if they get raped. And I know of no Christians, or any modern mainstream Christian denomination, here in the States (and I live in what is called "The Bible Belt" ) that condones rape, or promotes the idea that the rape victim should be held accountable in a court of law. Sexism, misogny, and the "boys club" mentality that you still see in some areas of life is nowhere close to Sharia treatment of women in Islamic society.

But none of that is remotely close to what you said, which was what I responded to. The goalposts there just moved so fast they made a 'whoosh' noise. You said, exactly:-

'The backwards ass view that sex should only be permitted between married couples? Nothing to do with Islam.

The backwards ass idea that a woman's testimony is worth less than a man's*? Nothing to do with Islam.'

Both of these things are found amongst heavily religious sects across the world, Christianity included. If you're going to tell me here and now that hardcore christians in the Bible Belt are out there buying condoms so their daughters can have safe unmarried sex, or pushing their girls to stand up for themselves against misogny, I'm not sure I'd believe you.....

First off, the two example you attributed to me? I said nothing of the sort. Don't attribute things to me falsely. And don't accuse me of "moving goalposts" when I've done nothing of the sort. I don't appreciate it, especially considering that I have been polite toward you.


What I posted was:

Moral of the story? Don't go to Islamic countries.

The poster who responded to that post of mine was the one who said that.



And you can believe me or not, but I don't care. I live in the Bible Belt and come from a Christian background. So, I know what the general attitudes are. And for the record, daughters don't need their parents to buy condoms for them. Anybody can buy them here. And while parents (even Christians) would prefer that their kids not be sexually active before marriage, it's better that they understand the dangers and use protection, rather than get pregnant or catch a deadly disease that will kill them.


Christianity may have had a blood history. But the common comeback of "all religions are the same" in modern times is a dishonest assertion. Christianity, and the cultures behind it, have changed over the centuries. Christians don't burn people at the stake anymore. They don't engage in elaborate tortures to root out heresy anymore. They don't launch Crusades anymore. Sure you still have dogmas in the various denominations and individuals, that express beliefs that would offend the sensitivities of modern secularists and "progressives". But don't go the dishonest route, and make the claim that it's equal to the beheadings, floggings, stonings, suicidal attempts to murder the "infidels" through terrorism, totalitarianism inherent in Sharia law, and brutal oppression of religious minorities and women. That kind of crap was discarded by mainstream Christianity and Judaism long ago, while the bulk of Islamic society is still stuck in the eleventh century.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

First off, the two example you attributed to me? I said nothing of the sort. Don't attribute things to me falsely. And don't accuse me of "moving goalposts" when I've done nothing of the sort. I don't appreciate it, especially considering that I have been polite toward you.

You are correct. I assumed the original post I'd quoted was you. I apologise, that was a mistake on my part.

That being said, your response to me then becomes baffling, as you're not responding to anything he said, and you're not disagreeing with what I said, but rather some imagined comment I made where I compared Christianity to Sharia Law. Which I never made.

Christianity may have had a blood history. But the common comeback of "all religions are the same" in modern times is a dishonest assertion. Christianity, and the cultures behind it, have changed over the centuries. Christians don't burn people at the stake anymore. They don't engage in elaborate tortures to root out heresy anymore. They don't launch Crusades anymore. Sure you still have dogmas in the various denominations and individuals, that express beliefs that would offend the sensitivities of modern secularists and "progressives". But don't go the dishonest route, and make the claim that it's equal to the beheadings, floggings, stonings, suicidal attempts to murder the "infidels" through terrorism, totalitarianism inherent in Sharia law, and brutal oppression of religious minorities and women. That kind of crap was discarded by mainstream Christianity and Judaism long ago, while the bulk of Islamic society is still stuck in the eleventh century.

You appear to be conflating religious and cultural factors/motivations here, I'm afraid.

 Ketara wrote:
You do realise that there are at least several million Christians sitting over in the States who believe exactly the same thing in that department, right? Islam/.the Middle-East don't have some universal monopoly on sexism and misogny.

Did I claim they had a monopoly? No, I did not. Yes, sexism is a global phenomena. But some regions, dominated by particular ideologies, are undoubtedly more sexist than others.

Both of these things are found amongst heavily religious sects across the world, Christianity included. If you're going to tell me here and now that hardcore christians in the Bible Belt are out there buying condoms so their daughters can have safe unmarried sex, or pushing their girls to stand up for themselves against misogny, I'm not sure I'd believe you.....

I'm not going to tell you any such thing. And as neither a Christian nor an American I have no problems condemning their attitudes- albeit less harshly- towards women and sex as well. But they're not the subject of the OP.

 Kojiro wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
You do realise that there are at least several million Christians sitting over in the States who believe exactly the same thing in that department, right? Islam/.the Middle-East don't have some universal monopoly on sexism and misogny.

Did I claim they had a monopoly? No, I did not. Yes, sexism is a global phenomena. But some regions, dominated by particular ideologies, are undoubtedly more sexist than others.

...
...

The west was hugely sexist a generation ago. It still is pretty sexist. Things change gradually. Islam is behind the west in this area of social change.

 Kojiro wrote:
Did I claim they had a monopoly? No, I did not.

What you did do, was ascribe it to Islam (by implication).

What sexism generally is though, is a cultural thing. If I raise a muslim in a relatively sexism-free atmosphere/environment, it's reasonably certain that muslim will not be sexist. They'll discount those parts of the holy book in the same way many religious yet unsexist people of many denominations discount many crazier sections of various holy books.

Yes, most Islamic countries are quite sexist. But correlation is not causation, as any student of history or statistics can tell you.

 Ketara wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

First off, the two example you attributed to me? I said nothing of the sort. Don't attribute things to me falsely. And don't accuse me of "moving goalposts" when I've done nothing of the sort. I don't appreciate it, especially considering that I have been polite toward you.

You are correct. I assumed the original post I'd quoted was you. I apologise, that was a mistake on my part.

That being said, your response to me then becomes baffling, as you're not responding to anything he said, and you're not disagreeing with what I said, but rather some imagined comment I made where I compared Christianity to Sharia Law. Which I never made.

Christianity may have had a blood history. But the common comeback of "all religions are the same" in modern times is a dishonest assertion. Christianity, and the cultures behind it, have changed over the centuries. Christians don't burn people at the stake anymore. They don't engage in elaborate tortures to root out heresy anymore. They don't launch Crusades anymore. Sure you still have dogmas in the various denominations and individuals, that express beliefs that would offend the sensitivities of modern secularists and "progressives". But don't go the dishonest route, and make the claim that it's equal to the beheadings, floggings, stonings, suicidal attempts to murder the "infidels" through terrorism, totalitarianism inherent in Sharia law, and brutal oppression of religious minorities and women. That kind of crap was discarded by mainstream Christianity and Judaism long ago, while the bulk of Islamic society is still stuck in the eleventh century.

You appear to be conflating religious and cultural factors/motivations here, I'm afraid.

Apology accepted. And apologies if I came across as too harsh.


What I took from your post, from where I'm sitting, was that modern American Christianity's attitude toward women (among other things) was no different from the worst aspects of Islam. Which I disagreed with. If I am wrong in that interpretation, by all means correct me.


In my view, Islam and Christianity, other than both being so-called "Abrahamic" religions, are as different as night and day. Islam isn't just a religion. The religion part is just window dressing in my opinion. Islam encompasses social, cultural, political, legal, spiritual, and military aspects. It's a way of life. Sharia law (the legal aspect) is very much part and parcel of Islam (it comes with the package). Islam is unique among most modern religious beliefs in that it still runs with all that rolled into one package. Something other religions have moved away from, for the most part, in modern times. The influence is still there. But in non-Islamic societies, it's not the fuel and gears that makes society run. Secular governments tend to be the order of the day in Christian societies (among others), with the church's influence being just a drop in the bucket compared to countries where Islam is dominant.

I will admit that there are exceptions to the rule, like Turkey and Pakistan. But even in those countries, Islamic fundamentalism tends to have a lot of influence, causing headaches with authorities. Another exception would be "westernized" Muslims. But you still have the issue of second and third generation Muslims in the West becoming radicalized by Islamic clerics that want to impose Islam on the host nations.


As for what Kojiro posted, I'm assuming that he/she was being sarcastic. I don't really know if Kojiro was agreeing or disagreeing. That's why I didn't respond to his/her post.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

What I took from your post, from where I'm sitting, was that modern American Christianity's attitude toward women (among other things) was no different from the worst aspects of Islam. Which I disagreed with. If I am wrong in that interpretation, by all means correct me.

My intent was more to demonstrate that quite frankly, sexism originates from a different place to religion. It's a cultural factor, something that grows or withers along with the society itself. Christian sexism and Islamic sexism both are generated from the same place, namely sexism that currently resides within a given society. The reason that sexism has to come to wane more in the Western world is because other cultural factors opposed to those which generated/maintained sexism have acquired greater prominence. The holding of religion is peripheral to all these factors (both for and against) at best, and the same is true in the Islamic world.

In my view, Islam and Christianity, other than both being so-called "Abrahamic" religions, are as different as night and day. Islam isn't just a religion. The religion part is just window dressing in my opinion. Islam encompasses social, cultural, political, legal, spiritual, and military aspects. It's a way of life. Sharia law (the legal aspect) is very much part and parcel of Islam (it comes with the package). Islam is unique among most modern religious beliefs in that it still runs with all that rolled into one package.

I would contend that Judaism, Hinduism, and indeed many other religions can incorporate many of those elements and more within themselves. But frankly, I'll be honest with you old bean, I'm not really following with where you're going with this line of reasoning. Are you trying to say that Islamic countries are more susceptible to Islamic cultural influence than non-Islamic ones?

Because I can't really disagree with that! But at the same time, it has to be borne in mind that religion is only ever the smallest part of the vast nature of the many social interactions that humans generate, and are in turn inundated by.

 Ketara wrote:

What you did do, was ascribe it to Islam (by implication).
<snip>
Yes, most Islamic countries are quite sexist. But correlation is not causation, as any student of history or statistics can tell you.

Is it your assertion that the correlation is entirely unconnected?

 Kojiro wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

What you did do, was ascribe it to Islam (by implication).
<snip>
Yes, most Islamic countries are quite sexist. But correlation is not causation, as any student of history or statistics can tell you.

Is it your assertion that the correlation is entirely unconnected?

Entirely? No. That would be foolish, as religion is a cultural factor in and of itself. But I would assert that it is peripheral to far more relevant social/cultural factors when it comes to the cause of sexism within a society, and that Islam no more responsible for sexism in Middle-Eastern countries than Christianity is responsible for it within Western ones. Sexism grows from far far more vastly complicated roots than that.

Their country, their rules. Do not go there, do not support them with tourism, these people are just fine living the way they always have in their own little desert hellhole. Leave them to it.

 Ketara wrote:
Entirely? No. That would be foolish, as religion is a cultural factor in and of itself. But I would assert that it is peripheral to far more relevant social/cultural factors when it comes to the cause of sexism within a society, and that Islam no more responsible for sexism in Middle-Eastern countries than Christianity is responsible for it within Western ones. Sexism grows from far far more vastly complicated roots than that.

So a woman has unmarried (adultery) sex, and is summarily punished for it. What 'cultural factor' made them consider this a crime?

Then a woman claims rape, while a man claims consent. The man is believed. What 'cultural factor' made them weigh the male testimony more heavily than the woman's?

What are the 'far more relevant socia/lcultural factors' in this that overshadows the 'peripheral' Islamic Sharia law in Qatar?

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:
She says she was drugged. Did they test her?

Doesn't matter, even if his dick accidentally fell in her Vagina she would had been guilty by the way she dressed/acted/is a westerner etcetera.
Even if she had worn a burka and the guy got aroused by it's color, it would have been the women's fault.

 Kojiro wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Entirely? No. That would be foolish, as religion is a cultural factor in and of itself. But I would assert that it is peripheral to far more relevant social/cultural factors when it comes to the cause of sexism within a society, and that Islam no more responsible for sexism in Middle-Eastern countries than Christianity is responsible for it within Western ones. Sexism grows from far far more vastly complicated roots than that.

So a woman has unmarried (adultery) sex, and is summarily punished for it. What 'cultural factor' made them consider this a crime?

Then a woman claims rape, while a man claims consent. The man is believed. What 'cultural factor' made them weigh the male testimony more heavily than the woman's?

What are the 'far more relevant socia/lcultural factors' in this that overshadows the 'peripheral' Islamic Sharia law in Qatar?

The same cultural factor that made these sorts of things common in Europe in past times -- sexism and misogyny.

The Sharia law derives from sexism and misogyny.

If that happened in the UK, or US or anywhere else "western", that bloke would have walked away scot free. On the charge of rape there was no evidence. Innocent until proven guilty... If it couldn't be proven that he raped her then it looks like sex outside of marriage which in Qatar is a crime and point of fact the bloke took the hardest punishment. She got fined some pocket money and he got lashes. I don't like Islam but that is the way they roll there.

 SolarCross wrote:
If that happened in the UK, or US or anywhere else "western", that bloke would have walked away scot free. On the charge of rape there was no evidence. Innocent until proven guilty... If it couldn't be proven that he raped her then it looks like sex outside of marriage which in Qatar is a crime and point of fact the bloke took the hardest punishment. She got fined some pocket money and he got lashes. I don't like Islam but that is the way they roll there.

Yep, which is why we should throw every person ever accused of rape in the clink. Right to due process? It just lets the bad guys get away with it!

 Kojiro wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Entirely? No. That would be foolish, as religion is a cultural factor in and of itself. But I would assert that it is peripheral to far more relevant social/cultural factors when it comes to the cause of sexism within a society, and that Islam no more responsible for sexism in Middle-Eastern countries than Christianity is responsible for it within Western ones. Sexism grows from far far more vastly complicated roots than that.

So a woman has unmarried (adultery) sex, and is summarily punished for it. What 'cultural factor' made them consider this a crime?

Then a woman claims rape, while a man claims consent. The man is believed. What 'cultural factor' made them weigh the male testimony more heavily than the woman's?

What are the 'far more relevant socia/lcultural factors' in this that overshadows the 'peripheral' Islamic Sharia law in Qatar?

The fact that sexism and misogny are culturally inculcated? Those are social/cultural factors in and of themselves that can be broken down, not simply results of.

There are many others though, from the way mankind has biologically evolved, to the cultural inertia of tradition, to the use of the punishment as a social deterrent against similar behaviour, to the fact that children are raised to see women as being inferior, to various other mixed in driving factors (protecting the family unit, the desire for control, and so on).

You're trying to see this as some sort of chemical equation where you put elements x+y into a culture, and get behaviour Z out. Sadly, it is far from that simple, and if it were, Iraq would currently be dining on Uncle Sam's Freedom Apple Pie in between shopping at their local mall and flicking through Fox News: Iraq edition.

Cultural and social change is not easy to enact, and stems from such a ridiculously huge variety of factors that just pointing at Islam and going, 'That one's to blame' is simplistic to the point of obduracy.

We don't know if the police took samples (blood, urine, etc) to analyse for possible drugs.

If a drug like Rohypnol was found, I think that would tend to support the woman's claim. But without such investigation there is no evidence.

Denying the power religion has to perpetuate these attitudes is also obdurate, Religious institutions have been the main force to legitimize, perpetuate and enforce these societal/cultural norms.

I agree though that many people have a far too simple understanding of the middle-east and and Islams place in it, but I'm also wary of downplaying the effect religion has.

 ulgurstasta wrote:


Denying the power religion has to perpetuate these attitudes is also obdurate, Religious institutions have been the main force to legitimize, perpetuate and enforce these societal/cultural norms.

I agree though that many people have a far too simple understanding of the middle-east and and Islams place in it, but I'm also wary of downplaying the effect religion has.

You mention religion as 'perpetuating these attitudes', but I believe you have it the wrong way around. Islam does not generally perpetuate sexist attitudes. Indeed, Islam itself is perpetuated by many of the same motivators which do perpetuate those sexist attitudes.

Let me put it like this. In every Islamic country, why when people grow to be adults, do they continue to follow Islam? It isn't because they're all rabid fanatics. Sure, you get a handful of people like that (you do in every culture). For the most part though? People just want tomorrow to go on like today. So they say their prayers, because it's what they've always done. They say their prayers, because they fear their neighbours will ostracise them if they do not. They say their prayers because they know their chances in the fields of employment, love, and friendship will be less successful if they do not. They say their prayers because whilst saying them, they get to see the other members of their community at the same time. They say their prayers because psychologically, people enjoy being part of a crowd. They say their prayers because they have no idea what's behind the Universe, life, and everything else, and this gives them a reason (meaning they don't have to think too hard about it). They say their prayers because it is routine, and routine is comforting. They say their prayers because their parents raised them to always say their prayers. And so on and so on.

Many of those reasons above are the same reasons why sexism is culturally perpetuated. Just replace 'say their prayers' with 'maintain sexist attitudes' . I accept that it doesn't fit into every reason above, but then sexism has its own cultural/social reasons for perpetuation that 'say their prayers' would not fit into.

Religion is rarely anything more than a reflection of the culture and society which espouses it, and the values and interests it holds. As conceded, yes, there are always a handful of those who 'get drunk on God'. But no society is made up of entirely, or even largely of religious fanatics, people simply aren't wired that way. If it were that simple, the West would still be launching Crusades. For the vast, vast majority of people, the attitudes you are raised with, and the social/cultural factors which surround you as an adult are far far more likely to influence your behaviour than the words in a book from two thousand years ago.

It's why in any country, any religious person is far more likely to prioritise a religious command/tenet when it aligns with their personal beliefs and social/cultural circumstances, than they are one that does not. The infamous Leviticus is a perfectly good example there (persecuting gays whilst wearing mixed fabrics), but there are many many others.

I think Ketara is spot on. Exalt from me.

I'm not a fan of religion, but I think it often gets the flack for what is really just human nature. Human nature loves to pose as religious belief, because saying "I personally think" just doesn't carry as much weight as "god commands!". It is in our nature to be xenophobic, jealous, possessive, cruel, vindictive, violent etc... People who aren't willing to overcome that behaviour will instead try to justify it, and they will justify it, if not with religion then with something else.

A good example of that is anti-Islamic nationalists, who have their own brand of dogma which they use to justify their xenophobia. Ultimately it amounts to the same thing. Anything that conflicts with their belief, even when it is from the same source, will just get ignored because it isn't about observance, it's about justification.

Islam and Christianity BOTH have sexist tenates in their dogma.

I can name ANY number of examples, but am at work so don't have the time....just use your google-fu skills to find them.

The fact that some followers of these faiths *choose* to not follow them does NOT mean that those sexist tenates do not exist...nor does it mean that in some "denominations" that they aren't contunued/practuced