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I haven't fought them, yet. On paper, they look tough as nails. I know, understatement of the week. I would like a chance to play against them, though.

Wulfen would be a lot more fair if they couldn't take storm shields. That was unnecessary. It's just another super unit that's best counter is the scatterbike or any other Xeno wound spam with poor AP.

How many Storm Shields can they take? And are they 15 points per storm shield?

 kronk wrote:
How many Storm Shields can they take? And are they 15 points per storm shield?

I'm not sure, actually. Given how SW roll, it's probably too many for too few points.

Martel732 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
To be honest, I'm still wondering what the hell the actual "Curse" is that the Wulfen carry. Clearly every Imperial unit should be Cursed because then the Imperium would be unstoppable!

The "curse" is that they are demonically corrupted. And the Imperium doesn't like that

Yeah, they don't like that to the point where they don't wipe them out of existence and do not declare SW extremis perdita, and they get away with it, with a slap on the wrist...

SW and GK are the two mary sue chapters. That's why I hates them.

That's not nice Martel, your blood-mad Vampire Angels are no different in that way, they just have a worse codex.

Twi harder.

Having a spammy theme is very different from being the bestest at everything and having no downsides for anything. The fluff for SW and GK is absurd. Way worse than BA. BA is mostly being in over their head in different fights.

And the word "wolf" shows up way more than "blood" in the respective codices.

SW and Grey Knights can't possibly be the bestest at everything since they don't have Grav.

Besides, I hear even *they* want to be Ultramarines.

 Insectum7 wrote:
SW and Grey Knights can't possibly be the bestest at everything since they don't have Grav.

Besides, I hear even *they* want to be Ultramarines.

They don't need it lol. Grav is a crutch for the have-not meqs.

Martel732 wrote:

They don't need it lol. Grav is a crutch for the have-not meqs.

Oh, I thought BA were the have-not MEQs. Or are you contradicting yourself?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

They don't need it lol. Grav is a crutch for the have-not meqs.

Oh, I thought BA were the have-not MEQs.

They're the even more have-not meqs. As was pointed out in another thread, the vanilla marines are kept afloat by a handful of units and gimmicks. Very powerful gimmicks, however. BA lack literally all of these successful gimmicks.

I know GK are not that good on the table right now, but the DK is still way better almost any marine unit and their fluff is absolutely nuts. SW get units of MCs with stormshields and powerfists. Enough said. The only thing better than MCs are entire units of them. With wargear. Wulfen and TWC are both criminally undercosted but I guess that's what it takes to make assault work in 7th. Although it's worth pointing out that Wulfen and TWC can run over units and models that even grav struggles with.

For more perspective my last two games against Gladius went to turn six and seven with me losing by single digit VPs. My last two vs SW was me conceding on turn 3.

Martel732 wrote:

For more perspective my last two games against Gladius went to turn six and seven with me losing by single digit VPs. My last two vs SW was me conceding on turn 3.

That's just because balls-out assault armies tend to work in the extreme like that, while the Gladius is a resilience list. I don't think that has anything to do with power levels.


What are the "units of MCs" that SW get? (and how are Thunderwolves/Wulfen not a gimmick?)

TWCs basically have the statline of a weak MC and can take wargear to boot. They are more points efficient than nearly any MC to boot. The only MCs in the league of TWC are DK and Riptide.

TWC and Wulfen function excellently as they are without invis shenanigans, crazy formations, etc. That's where I draw the line between gimmicks and excellent units. I don't consider Eldar a gimmick army, just undercosted.

The vanilla marines, on the other hand, are largely an overcosted army propped up by power combos like superfriends and outright free units. TWC, on the other hand, can get their stormshields and just charge right over whatever the feth they want.

Wulfen are just infantry, so are TWC. Wulfen are way too good, so are TWC, but as you've said Martel, that's what it takes to make assault work in 7th ed.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Wulfen are just infantry, so are TWC. Wulfen are way too good, so are TWC, but as you've said Martel, that's what it takes to make assault work in 7th ed.

Wulfen are really MCs erroneously catergorized as "infantry", imo. But yeah... it all goes back to everything good in marines lists now are non-marines.

Martel732 wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Wulfen are just infantry, so are TWC. Wulfen are way too good, so are TWC, but as you've said Martel, that's what it takes to make assault work in 7th ed.

Wulfen are really MCs erroneously catergorized as "infantry", imo. But yeah... it all goes back to everything good in marines lists now are non-marines.

I'll agree with the second point, but they really aren't MCs...

The only thing they have in common with an MC is multiple wounds and AP2... But they only have two, and T4.

They really aren't MCs man.

TWC are S5/T5. The magical cutoff in 7th ed for being a survivable unit.

TWs still have to pay to get AP 2, so definitely not an MC equivalent. And I'd call a power-armored-semi-wolf-man riding a giant wolf just about as gimmicky as it gets.

Anyways, this is off-topic, so I'm done.

I've never fought Wulfen in 7th Ed. I doubt I'd enjoy it, but once I see what they're about I'll adjust for it. Seems like the ol' Land Speeder squadron with six Heavy Bolters would be semi-reasonable, honestly. Especially if you Deep Struck so the Shields wouldn't be tanking shots.

 Insectum7 wrote:
TWs still have to pay to get AP 2, so definitely not an MC equivalent. And I'd call a power-armored-semi-wolf-man riding a giant wolf just about as gimmicky as it gets.

Anyways, this is off-topic, so I'm done.

I've never fought Wulfen in 7th Ed. I doubt I'd enjoy it, but once I see what they're about I'll adjust for it. Seems like the ol' Land Speeder squadron with six Heavy Bolters would be semi-reasonable, honestly. Especially if you Deep Struck so the Shields wouldn't be tanking shots.

Do you run those standard, or are you counting on list tailoring? I have found that running into SW blind is where they are really unstoppable.

Martel732 wrote:

Do you run those standard, or are you counting on list tailoring? I have found that running into SW blind is where they are really unstoppable.

Occasionally. They can be my go-to if I'm not bringing Assault Squads. Although Drop Podding Assault Squads with double Flamer seem ok against Wulfen anyways. Podding behind the shields with Grav and Bolters will take it's toll, too.

A 4+ and FNP is basically a 3+. A 3+ (shield) with a FNP is not quite a 2+. At only T4 they're still fairly Bolter-able if you can get enough shots on. The 2W and FNP are reasons it's handy to have some Lascannons around once the Shields are down. They're obviously a tough squad, but I don't think they need to be tailored for, you just need be ready to engage them in a favorable way. I think the OP (and not through any real fault of his own) probably got caught off-guard and then the rolls went poorly. I wouldn't have known their stats personally, or even having asked, I may not have grokked their resilience/lethality right off the bat.

Actually, thanks to this thread I probably am more prepared if I do see them on the table.

I'm rather anal and get the low down on every unit my opponent puts on the board. I just can't usually do anything about it.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm rather anal and get the low down on every unit my opponent puts on the board. I just can't usually do anything about it.

Oh I do to, I just don't always really grasp the implications. Sometimes it's clear enough to form a plan around, sometimes some detail catches me off guard and I only understand a unit after I've lost some of my own.

And sometimes it's the other way around, like I didn't really appreciate the various buffs of my Hounds of Abbadon until my Raptors (of all things) started killing more than I expected in CC.

Martel732 wrote:
Having a spammy theme is very different from being the bestest at everything and having no downsides for anything. The fluff for SW and GK is absurd. Way worse than BA. BA is mostly being in over their head in different fights.

And the word "wolf" shows up way more than "blood" in the respective codices.

I was talking about the Red Thirst and Black Rage being prominent mutations same as the Wulfen, no way in any Hell-like dimension am I going to claim the word 'wolf' and all the associated words don't get used WAAAAY too often in the SW codex. In the fluff it actually gets used a lot less, they've got more vikings in space to them. The only difference with the Blood Angels is they get the annoying word association spread over three words rather than one.

The Space Wolves actually have been in trouble with the Imperium for the Wulfen on multiple occassions, mostly with the Inquisition. They recently had a few planets suffer Exterminatus by the Dark Angels and an Inquisition Purging on Fenris itself by the Grey Knights.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Pardon the pun but their curse is purely fluffy.
Fluffwise they're speeding up the degeneration of the Space Wolves' gene seed, effectively putting a countdown clock on the chapter, my bet is turning the Wolves into Khorne Daemons.

One can only hope.

Hey, Space Wolves are pretty interesting and have reasonable depth!








...In the Dornian Heresy AU.

I've fought a squad of 10 wulfen twice ... two separate games using my Genestealer Cult. I was frightened of them at first in game number one, but my First Curse squad (Patriarch and 'stealers) got the charge on the wulfen and destroyed them.

Game two my First Curse formation got charged by 5 thunderwolf cavalry, 10 wulfen, and 1 HQ-type guy on a thunder wolf. The combat went over two rounds. Patriarch ends up killing the SW HQ in the second round of the challenge. Some of the 'stealers drop 2 of the 5 thunderwolf, and chew through 7 of the 10 Wulfen before he finally takes the squad out ... by then the rest of my cult was ready to shoot the *bleep* out of them and finished them off.

So my situation may just be conditional since The First Curse is a pretty damn potent formation...

They're also only LD8 when taken without a Sgt.

Pinning tests on -2LD would be very effective.

 kronk wrote:
How many Storm Shields can they take? And are they 15 points per storm shield?

20 points to upgrade from a CC weapon to a TH/SS combo, and I think the entire squad can take them

The scary axes are only 8 points.

Well lucky us Stormshield is a forgotten piece of technology that Admech don't know how to make anymore and there is only a few of them per chapter so only the most Elites of elites can have the small numbers they have of it..., right?...

oh wait no..., when i look at SM lists its like the darn thing is growing on freakin trees...

thats the problem, the fact that Wulfen is killy, is well expected, you would expect of a 3 meters high Genetically modified Super Werewolf to be a hard hitter, but was it really necessary to give them acces to stormshields???

No it was not, but hey Sm special snowflakes.

And our Termies are still stuck with their stinking 5++( if you don't play Tzeentch)

fresus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
People get pissy about wulfen because it's 7th edition and everyone's conditioned to see non-deathstar melee units as laughably gakky and points inefficient. "b-but they function out of the box? You mean they don't have to have their durability buffed to the point of it being impossible to harm them with a rerollable 2++ or invisibility? So OP!!" .

Harlequins have a ton of good attacks at high initiative, function pretty well out of the box. But people don't complain because they die like flies to any type of shooting.
DW knights for instance are durable, and hit hard in melee, but with fewer attacks and at lower initiative, so that's also fine.
Wulfen have the best of both world, plus their plethora of special rules. They even have a build-in insurance: if they die first in melee, then they get free attacks, just to be sure that they make their points back. Their only weakness is S8+ shooting, but not every army has that in their arsenal.

Exactly. The Death frenzy rule was just unnecessary and is, honestly one of the dumbest rules in 40k. They get a full round of attacks (at initiative) that can drop a damn stompa. That's bad enough. Too much for the points IMO (less than termies and Sang Guard) The fact that they can give everything with 12" movement a second movement phase is ridiculous.


Shoot them you say? Easier said than done when you're locked in CC because Skyclaws and bikes moved twice and got off a T1 charge. Or you're trying desperately to chew down some TWC before they run you over like a lawn mower next turn. You shouldn't have to deploy your Demonkin like Tau to avoid becoming speed bumps because the Furries got the perfect CC unit that hands out super buffs like candy and can kill anything short of a Titan themselves in CC.

I'll happily play against riptide wing all day long rather than fast Furries with 2 units of Wulfen in the list.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Exactly. The Death frenzy rule was just unnecessary and is, honestly one of the dumbest rules in 40k. They get a full round of attacks (at initiative) that can drop a damn stompa. That's bad enough. Too much for the points IMO (less than termies and Sang Guard) The fact that they can give everything with 12" movement a second movement phase is ridiculous.

This is why I think is really childishly designed. They gave the unit an axe that hits hard and costs significantly less than the TH/SS combination, and that strikes last unless you charge. So a melee unit can try to play well, maneuver correctly and pull a charge to counter these high strength weapons before they become too lethal.

But no. If you kill the model it will strike back anyway. Because reasons. Is a huge insult to other melee units, especially ones that pay for higher initiative, more than anything else.
It does not push a good gameplay or strategy either for the Wulfen Player (I pay less the unit, but for I strenght I have to play smarter) or the opponent (for the reason listed).

Well, at least LRBTs look good in that context