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 master of ordinance wrote:

To those complaining about the Sherman's track sag: All tanks get sag in their tracks. The only way to avoid this is to have a solid bar in the place of your return rollers, and even then there will be sag between the Idler/Sprocket and the bar.

That is an inaccurate statement. Typically the driver is responsible for hull/track maintenance and if the TC wants the track to keep running he ensures the driver adjusts track tension at every opportunity. Getting out the grease gun and spanner wrenches beats the gak out of throwing track in a bad place and time. Properly maintained 'live' track does not sag. These Shermans used 'live' track.

Yeah, you'll find photos of units that have not yet done maintenance, does not mean they allowed sag where there was not supposed to be any.

 master of ordinance wrote:


On a final note, be wary about playing SS. Bringing SS to the table can incite some nastiness from the more ignorant/extremists in a group, and if you have ever been on the Facebook group(s) you will most likely have seen the passive aggressive posts that some members have been making against SS and even vanilla German players. Guilt tripping is not uncommon.

Have fun, and keep us posted.

Wait, seriously? People do that? I mean, its a WW2 game. Without germans, thered be no point!
(yes, yes, there were other forces involved, but Germany started it. No Germany, no WW2. Or at least no WW2 as we know it. )

Plus, germans get the coolest tanks. And who doesnt like being the bad guy?

I guess some would prefer a bolt action game where the US has a pleasant pillow fight with the Italians.

Or goes up against a horde of angry German grannies armed with their handbags.

I have an alt-history German army with SS in it. The force didn't start that way, but I really like the models I've created for them (in general the SS had a lot of gear which had a major influence on post-war developments). Given the theatre if they existed they more than likely would have done bad things (and the fictional unit's title of "SS Butchhunde" does nothing to avert that). The same though could *easily* be said of any of the armies taking part in the war. Whilst the Germans were the ones "largely" (and that's debatable) committing atrocities, the Allies participated in their fair share (we'll leave my own thoughts about the Soviet Union out of this, but seriously...). The victors gain the moral high ground however, so we don't tend to view the Allies war crimes in quite the same light as the Axis.

The Bolt Action Facebook page has its weekly fit on that subject. People tend to ignore just how many of those big bad Axis soldiers went on to live normal lives after the war, even if they were part of units like the SS or say the Japanese occupation forces. I don't see the problem with representing these units from a military perspective, but I won't go so far as to start running scenarios of Allied or Axis soldiers ethnically cleansing villages or the like. Its a war game, so that's where I'll leave it.

Folks on the internet may disagree with that point of view, but meh, they're not the guys who I actually play games against...

I actually have (well, had, until recently) family members who suffered under the soviets, and my grandfathers both fought in the war. So yeah, tell me about it...

But yeah, enough about that, before we get too off topic.

There is a difference between playing germans and playing SS
At least here most clubs allow to use the rules but do not allow to play with models with SS insignia or symbols

the german army is the army while SS was the armoured part of a political organisation (and count as criminal organisation nowadays) and I can understand if people feel uncomfortable if their opponent use them because the SS was "cool"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyr13 wrote:

Wait, seriously? People do that? I mean, its a WW2 game. Without germans, thered be no point!

SS is not meaning all German forces and a WW2 game can have Germans as bad guys without bringing the SS.

I do realise that. Im not saying you should glorify what they did, and the whole insignia thing is another matter entirely, at least in Germany and Austria. That said, if youre playing a historical scenario, you should be able to use historical forces. And some forces were entirely comprised of SS.

(and so much for getting back on topic. <.< )

It is always best to ask in the local club or group you want to play how they handle those things in historical games before you start.


back to topic
I used the Perry DAK and Rubicon Tiger to start my German force and those are beautiful models (now waiting for the Rubicon Kradschützen)
A friend uses the Warlord US Plastics and 1/48 Shermans and they fit well together
main reason is that the tanks are without bases and therefore look a bit too small next to Infantry with higher bases (like those from GW)

Oi, my SS are cool looking.

The issue with WWII is that its a popular setting, but also in recent memory. You don't hear people deriding Roman players, whom undoubtedly were much worse than any power in WWII, nor say European colonials in the 19th century...

Perhaps I have a skewed perspective on the whole subject due to my upbringing, though again I don't see much of an issue. I find people who make Nazi Space Marines attention seeking, which is why I'll mock them, but more practical historical forces are game. Again, not get into it, but calling any particular body within the German military "bad" is an oversimplification. What about all the foreign nationals who enlisted into the SS as "anti-communists", and not as Fascists (undoubtedly many of them were indoctrinated of course)? Do people call the Finns or Hungarians "bad", hell the Hungarian SS after the war was recruited by the Allies? At the same time people don't bat an eyelid at a Soviet force, to which well, I'll play the Vienna card...

So aye, I have the period on the same standing as Ancients. Its apparently fine to have pre-teens play with Warhammer 40,000 stuff, we'll just ignore the tons of imaginary with clear Nazi influences...

Heh, still I agree, don't turn up to a club one night with models which could cause offence. If they're just regular Heer, without flags, then that's no problem, but you're just asking for trouble if you bring along a (unrealistic) force covered in Swastikas. There's a difference between making a force which is fitting a historical theme and being attention seeking. "Hey it'd be so cool if I made a Slaaneshi army filled with demons which're having sex with each other", yeah, sure ...as an art piece ...maybe, but you try and show that in public where you have no idea who the audience will be.

but calling any particular body within the German military "bad" is an oversimplification.

that is one point, the SS was never part of the German military body, it had always been the armed part of the political party (this was also the only thing that made the SS an "elite" force, it was the personal guard of Hitler and loyal only to him while the army was loyal to the country).
So no calling the SS "bad" is not calling one part of the military body bad, but calling the political party bad

What about all the foreign nationals who enlisted into the SS as "anti-communists", and not as Fascists (undoubtedly many of them were indoctrinated of course)? Do people call the Finns or Hungarians "bad", hell the Hungarian SS after the war was recruited by the Allies?

A lot of SS Officers were recruited by the Allies (mostly by the US) and they used them as spy or what ever.
And while some people were forced to serve, most joined freely and there was a reason why they joined the SS instead of the army.

I can accept the reason why someone uses SS troops in a game to play a specific scenario, I see no reason to use them to build a general force (and they were similar equipped like the army, so no aesthetic reason).
Also I see no reason to build an army based on regiments or troops of other nations known for massacre or killing civilians (because they look cool is hardly to believed for choosing this one specific theme)

The SS units seem to have been equipped and organized as part of a 'military body' and sure as gak fought in many battles on both fronts as if they were a 'military body'. Interestingly enough, those battles were generally fought WAY too far away for those forces to be effective body guards for Hitler.

 CptJake wrote:
The SS units seem to have been equipped and organized as part of a 'military body'

they were equipped as armed force similar to the army (more like the national guard in the US) and organised to be independent from the military body and only responsible to the political party.

Interestingly enough, those battles were generally fought WAY too far away for those forces to be effective body guards for Hitler.

effective or not, the SS was also police and KZ guard, and the troops were regularly changed to serve in all parts of the organisation (a guard being send to the front etc)
and the main reason that they were so far away was to do the things the army could not and secure and "clean" the conquered land (and full fill the agenda of the party)

and being Hitlers body guard also meant to make sure the army follow the orders
(terrible in the last days of the war, because Hitlers last order was fight until death, and for the SS this was the last order that counted. the order to surrender from the new leader after his suicide was not accepted and SS troops killed army soldiers who stopped fighting days after the war was official over)

 CptJake wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

To those complaining about the Sherman's track sag: All tanks get sag in their tracks. The only way to avoid this is to have a solid bar in the place of your return rollers, and even then there will be sag between the Idler/Sprocket and the bar.

That is an inaccurate statement. Typically the driver is responsible for hull/track maintenance and if the TC wants the track to keep running he ensures the driver adjusts track tension at every opportunity. Getting out the grease gun and spanner wrenches beats the gak out of throwing track in a bad place and time. Properly maintained 'live' track does not sag. These Shermans used 'live' track.

Yeah, you'll find photos of units that have not yet done maintenance, does not mean they allowed sag where there was not supposed to be any.

I have yet to see a tank in action that did not have track sag.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

To those complaining about the Sherman's track sag: All tanks get sag in their tracks. The only way to avoid this is to have a solid bar in the place of your return rollers, and even then there will be sag between the Idler/Sprocket and the bar.

That is an inaccurate statement. Typically the driver is responsible for hull/track maintenance and if the TC wants the track to keep running he ensures the driver adjusts track tension at every opportunity. Getting out the grease gun and spanner wrenches beats the gak out of throwing track in a bad place and time. Properly maintained 'live' track does not sag. These Shermans used 'live' track.

Yeah, you'll find photos of units that have not yet done maintenance, does not mean they allowed sag where there was not supposed to be any.

I have yet to see a tank in action that did not have track sag.

I've seen tons. I've not seen a live track using tank with sag except when it needed maintenance. Again, crews HATE throwing track under 'good' conditions. Doing so while engaged is a Bad Thing if you're a tanker. Maybe you saw a tank turning and were looking at the side inside of the turn...

I'd imagine track sag would be more common on interleaved roadwheel German stuff, but by and large an excessive amount either indicates one of two things: the crew has intentionally let them sag with the misunderstanding (there were plenty of inexperienced tankers out there) that the more ground pressure the better (without considering the more sag the higher chance of throwing a track) or that the vehicle is in need of maintenance. I'd err towards the later considering the distance some of the tanks were driving, and general lack of repair (bearing in mind some of those tanks had been in service for years by the end of the war on fairly crappy terrain).

Certain tanks of the time had track sag by default, so that combined with the above may be why we see tanks with various amounts of it. Special mention though goes to German tanks which obviously would have had production issues late in the war, so the retention of the idlers/ plus general abysmal quality of the torsion bars would likely had led to the tracks sagging pretty quickly (or in the case of the torsion bars, sagging off completely and taking half the drive with them ).

 kodos wrote:

they were equipped as armed force similar to the army (more like the national guard in the US) and organised to be independent from the military body and only responsible to the political party.

Except the Waffen-SS at the start of the war came under command of OKW.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

but calling any particular body within the German military "bad" is an oversimplification.

that is one point, the SS was never part of the German military body, it had always been the armed part of the political party (this was also the only thing that made the SS an "elite" force, it was the personal guard of Hitler and loyal only to him while the army was loyal to the country).

You may want to read the Wehrmacht Oath then...

The Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty to Adolf Hitler, 2 August 1934

"I swear to God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German Empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath."

 kodos wrote:
It is always best to ask in the local club or group you want to play how they handle those things in historical games before you start.


back to topic
I used the Perry DAK and Rubicon Tiger to start my German force and those are beautiful models (now waiting for the Rubicon Kradschützen)
A friend uses the Warlord US Plastics and 1/48 Shermans and they fit well together
main reason is that the tanks are without bases and therefore look a bit too small next to Infantry with higher bases (like those from GW)

That's hypocrisy. Don't play ww2 if you are such disgusted.
It's a game and as long as the game rules allow you can bring what you want, only ask if it's not in the rules.
I'm from Hungary, we got by germany and the soviet too. Still play anything.

True enough Lathor, when people play any wargame from history every spectrum should be expected to be played against. Like a lot of people I am interested in the German war machine for many reasons. Be that vehicles, campaigns or even just colour schemes.

Doesn't mean we are nazis. People should take things in a bit more context. It's only a game after all. Enjoy your hobby, models and games for what they are.

 CptJake wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

To those complaining about the Sherman's track sag: All tanks get sag in their tracks. The only way to avoid this is to have a solid bar in the place of your return rollers, and even then there will be sag between the Idler/Sprocket and the bar.

That is an inaccurate statement. Typically the driver is responsible for hull/track maintenance and if the TC wants the track to keep running he ensures the driver adjusts track tension at every opportunity. Getting out the grease gun and spanner wrenches beats the gak out of throwing track in a bad place and time. Properly maintained 'live' track does not sag. These Shermans used 'live' track.

Yeah, you'll find photos of units that have not yet done maintenance, does not mean they allowed sag where there was not supposed to be any.

Good points, CptJake. I think master of ordinance also missed the original point, which is that the Warlord Sherman's track sag is exaggerated to the point of being distracting. Some WW2 tanks tended to have more pronounced track sag (you see it on many, but not all, Panzer IIIs and IVs - I've never seen any evidence that it was quality issue, as Wyrmalla suggsted). The fact is that it was rare on Shermans.

As for the SS point, this argument never ends well. There is no point trying to separate 'good' from 'bad' when it comes to the German armed forces in WW2. Terrible things were done by SS and non-SS units, as a result of the spread of Nazi ideals throughout German society, and the inevitable brutalisation inflicted by being in a war of annihilation. By the latter part of the war, the SS was increasingly relied upon an increasingly paranoid leadership, and formed a substantial part of Germany's armed forces. They were no longer genuinely 'elite', but they tended to be seen as more reliable. Anyway, noone who opts to field SS models should be surprised if some people are offended or upset.

Really I've never had people react negatively to my army. I have a large Berlin 1945 army collection and I've never seen people get upset over the SS or Hitler youth in my army. Historical gamers should be more mature than that. Every army in the war did terrible things, not just the SS.

Should we not bring US or Brits because their planes killed thousands of civilians? Should we not bring Soviets because they raped and pillaged their way through Germany. Should we not run Japanese because they butchered millions of Chinese civilians? What armies would be left?

If someone gets upset over you running SS, just ignore them. Play what you think is cool. For all their cruelty, SS had some spiffy uniforms and got priority access to all the fancy gear.