Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 kronk wrote:


I don't doubt it!

Spoiler:

Hahahahaha!!! Indeed!

I think there may be a little kind of "forced perspective" thing going on when you look at your average group of gamers at the FLGS.

Allow me (or rather paraphrase the owner of my FLGS) to explain- You put together a group of people who come from all walks of life and this place here (maybe just the one game night) is the one place they can interact with and shoot the gak IRL with other gamers. They will be loud, obnoxious and incredibly geeky as they're just venting and talking and playing wargaming after a whole week of not being able to do so due to more than likely being surrounded by co-workers who just talk about football. Yes, we can do it on here, but there is a wonderful difference to talk about something you love IRL. My FLGS owner understands and tolerates it because he knows this is the outlet for their weekly geeking out session.

Now, to the outside observer this might look like a bunch of fething weirdos (okay, there are some that are weird even to gamers amongst our number) and they'll probably all get tarred with the same brush as it were. Sub in gaming for a more, socially acceptable thing where one can be loud and obnoxious (e.g. Football) and you can see where this idea may come from.

Ruin wrote:
I think there may be a little kind of "forced perspective" thing going on when you look at your average group of gamers at the FLGS.

Allow me (or rather paraphrase the owner of my FLGS) to explain- You put together a group of people who come from all walks of life and this place here (maybe just the one game night) is the one place they can interact with and shoot the gak IRL with other gamers. They will be loud, obnoxious and incredibly geeky as they're just venting and talking and playing wargaming after a whole week of not being able to do so due to more than likely being surrounded by co-workers who just talk about football. Yes, we can do it on here, but there is a wonderful difference to talk about something you love IRL. My FLGS owner understands and tolerates it because he knows this is the outlet for their weekly geeking out session.

Now, to the outside observer this might look like a bunch of fething weirdos (okay, there are some that are weird even to gamers amongst our number) and they'll probably all get tarred with the same brush as it were. Sub in gaming for a more, socially acceptable thing where one can be loud and obnoxious (e.g. Football) and you can see where this idea may come from.

Agreed. I think this may be people trying to justify awkward social experiences they've had. I think there's no bigger relation between tabletop gamers and "those on the spectrum" than there is between people with low IQs and people who like to watch football and drink beer.

Basically, if you're looking for stereotypes, you'll find them.

As someone said earlier, one of the advantages of wargaming is that it allows for structured, almost pre-planned, social interaction. You play a game with someone, and you know you have something you can talk about with that person (the game). This does help for many. For myself, it is ...exceedingly difficult to socialize, even with people I do know. Being able to game is a path that allows me to meet people (when I've built up the nerve to do so in the first place), and establishes a foundation from which to start talking.

I've never been diagnosed or had myself examined (when I was a kid, there wasn't really a spectrum back then, so if you weren't like Rainman, you weren't seen as autistic by most people). But, when I've looked at the list of signs of Asperger;s, I pretty much check all the boxes.

Relatively simple test to give an insight;

https://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient/

I'm not claiming it to be a foolproof diagnostic test, but if answered honestly it can give an idea about where on the spectrum you are.

 JamesY wrote:
Relatively simple test to give an insight;

https://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient/

I'm not claiming it to be a foolproof diagnostic test, but if answered honestly it can give an idea about where on the spectrum you are.

This test is quite shifted and "dumbed down", it interprets introverts as aspergers and aspergers as autists and extroverts are the most healthy people by this test...

nou wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Relatively simple test to give an insight;

https://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient/

I'm not claiming it to be a foolproof diagnostic test, but if answered honestly it can give an idea about where on the spectrum you are.

This test is quite shifted and "dumbed down", it interprets introverts as aspergers and aspergers as autists and extroverts are the most healthy people by this test...

I looked at that test, but didn't take it as it asks the same questions as one I did take. The one I did take simply gave a numerical score, with the higher the number the more likely you are to have autism/aspergers. From your post I assume the linked test attempts to interpret the answers?

Sounds pretty similar to the one you have already taken, it just gives a score and an indication on where you might be on the spectrum. Again, it's not a diagnosis, just an interesting exercise for anyone who is curious about where they might be on it.

@nou I don't think it makes any qualification on spectrum and health, it's being increasingly viewed as cognitive differences, rather than illness, along with dyslexia. Not a fully accepted theory as yet though.

What do you mean by off? People who are in this kind of hobby are usually the introvert type, instead people who are more outgoing. Yes i had loud mouths and hyper active people in my gaming group but that was mostly because they feel at ease there to express themselves.

 JamesY wrote:
Relatively simple test to give an insight;

https://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient/

I'm not claiming it to be a foolproof diagnostic test, but if answered honestly it can give an idea about where on the spectrum you are.

I got a 23, so I have little to no autism!

Take that, Mom! I'm the normal one!

 JamesY wrote:
Sounds pretty similar to the one you have already taken, it just gives a score and an indication on where you might be on the spectrum. Again, it's not a diagnosis, just an interesting exercise for anyone who is curious about where they might be on it.

@nou I don't think it makes any qualification on spectrum and health, it's being increasingly viewed as cognitive differences, rather than illness, along with dyslexia. Not a fully accepted theory as yet though.

I don't have problems with this test assigning named labels to results or whether it names "cognitive differences" as illneses (I don't really care much about what exact language is used to describe an observable phenomenon as long as it does allow to describe such phenomenon in full), just that it creates a severly shifted landscape of those results. In other words - this test have a numerical output so biased, that it creates false landscape of measured parameter. It does so mostly because of some repeated questions, some non-specific answers and having "silent assumptions" about some answers and their value and a baseline shift (it has all non-asperger named results compressed to about half of the scale). This is just a poorly designed test.

nou wrote:
This is just a poorly designed test.

*Sticks fingers in ears*

Lalalalalala! Not listening! I'm the normal one!

*Runs away with fingers in ears*

Lalalalalala!

At 42/50, I think I am quite a way onto that scale.
You're too normal for us here.
Move along, with your normal ... 'you'.

nou wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Relatively simple test to give an insight;

https://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient/

I'm not claiming it to be a foolproof diagnostic test, but if answered honestly it can give an idea about where on the spectrum you are.

This test is quite shifted and "dumbed down", it interprets introverts as aspergers and aspergers as autists and extroverts are the most healthy people by this test...

Guessing by my score (six) despite giving plenty of semi-introverted answers, I don't think it's scaled as aggressively as you think. Certainly some traits could be personality driven (theater vs museum), but that's why it's so many questions. If you consistently prefer solo activities, that's a possible sign of autism, but I think the test understands that even extroverts sometimes like doing things alone.

 Polonius wrote:

nou wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Relatively simple test to give an insight;

https://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient/

I'm not claiming it to be a foolproof diagnostic test, but if answered honestly it can give an idea about where on the spectrum you are.

This test is quite shifted and "dumbed down", it interprets introverts as aspergers and aspergers as autists and extroverts are the most healthy people by this test...

Guessing by my score (six) despite giving plenty of semi-introverted answers, I don't think it's scaled as aggressively as you think. Certainly some traits could be personality driven (theater vs museum), but that's why it's so many questions. If you consistently prefer solo activities, that's a possible sign of autism, but I think the test understands that even extroverts sometimes like doing things alone.

This thing right here - consistently prefering solo activities isn't realy any indication of autism. Combined number of people with autism and Aspergers is estimated around 50 milion worldwide. Scaling this percentage down to typical maintained personal social circle size of 150 people you should know about a single person with either disfunction. Your local book reading club is not a circle of people with Aspergers, neither is FLGS... That said, you indeed have a better chance at finding a person with Aspergers at FLGS or in a reading club than in a crowded dance hall.

 kronk wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Relatively simple test to give an insight;

https://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient/

I'm not claiming it to be a foolproof diagnostic test, but if answered honestly it can give an idea about where on the spectrum you are.

I got a 23, so I have little to no autism!

Take that, Mom! I'm the normal one!

Ha I got 18 I am even more normal er lol.

But on a side note their is ovbiously a large group of people who enjoy aspects of wargaming that cater to a certain crowd. People who enjoy numbers, setting things up, controlling a certain aspect of life and so on. Hell you see how emotional people got about some recon? Most people would not care but people who show more autism and other traits have a hard time letting go of the old and it is more upsetting for them.

The moving forward of 40k is showing the signs again or the changing of 30k. People can become very emotionally attached to things they thought they had control over. Lossing that control can be very upsetting.

I know why I am attracted to warhammer and ditched aos aswell, I know my mental issues.

I am obsessed with making things just right, numbers are a easy go to for me nothing shows perfection like math. I always hated English class because my creative writing was judged by her standards not a set standard I could double check.

I like things to not be in order but have a place, such as bases and so on which is why I tend to collect hundreds of kodels not just 1 so it has a setting to be in.

It is also why I enjoy sculpting and cabinet making wood making ect. Everything is down to measurements a form of perfection that can be 100% verified. Which is why I tend to sculpt life figures such as animals, I actually threw e ork I was working on out because I disliked his width after finishing him.

Wargaming gives me numbers, scale refference measurments and so forth that I can bind all them to. Guess that's why I play a lot less then I build.

It is why I liked and still do like yugioh, 1000s of cards countless options and trying to make the perfect deck that can't lose. An aspect that may be impossible due to card variety random chance and such but trying to minimize random chance to a formula and best known guess is part of the fun. List building is the best part of wargaming making the unbeatable and once it is unbeatable ditching it to make another. The endless goal. I also like trying to take the worst things and make them perfect... Next goal flash gits..... You will work my lovelys

I have scored a 13 on that test out of curiosity, but I can easily see my stepbrother getting a 35+

Speaking as a parent with a 13 year old diagnosed with ADHD and ASD, I can tell you that there is a pull to wargaming for this type of person. My son does have social issues and the draw of having people that you can interact with in the realm of a common interest in a structured way is very comforting to this type of person. No, every gamer is not on the spectrum, and I don't think it's the majority, but for those of us like me who have some level of social anxiety, or like my son with ASD, it's comforting to not need to initiate the interactions or find an icebreaker. I've also found that time with a closed group like this begins to ease the way you feel about interacting with the public in general. I will echo, however, the sentiments that have been made here to not try to label anyone yourself

nou wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Sounds pretty similar to the one you have already taken, it just gives a score and an indication on where you might be on the spectrum. Again, it's not a diagnosis, just an interesting exercise for anyone who is curious about where they might be on it.

@nou I don't think it makes any qualification on spectrum and health, it's being increasingly viewed as cognitive differences, rather than illness, along with dyslexia. Not a fully accepted theory as yet though.

I don't have problems with this test assigning named labels to results or whether it names "cognitive differences" as illneses (I don't really care much about what exact language is used to describe an observable phenomenon as long as it does allow to describe such phenomenon in full), just that it creates a severly shifted landscape of those results. In other words - this test have a numerical output so biased, that it creates false landscape of measured parameter. It does so mostly because of some repeated questions, some non-specific answers and having "silent assumptions" about some answers and their value and a baseline shift (it has all non-asperger named results compressed to about half of the scale). This is just a poorly designed test.

Well the landscape of how we define and acknowledge spectrum disorders has changed, so it is no surprise that up to date tests have had to change the measurables by which they are recognized. The overlapping questions, as others have said exist to separate behaviour from personality traits, rather than act as a means to reinforce or guarantee a specific result for more introverted personalities.

Geeky things like 40K, LARPing and others attract lots of non-standard people, many of which are on the shy side of things, some of which are total donkey-caves who would have nobody to talk to if they turned to a hobby with more than a few participants in a 20 mile radius.

 Battlesong wrote:
Speaking as a parent with a 13 year old diagnosed with ADHD and ASD, I can tell you that there is a pull to wargaming for this type of person. My son does have social issues and the draw of having people that you can interact with in the realm of a common interest in a structured way is very comforting to this type of person. No, every gamer is not on the spectrum, and I don't think it's the majority, but for those of us like me who have some level of social anxiety, or like my son with ASD, it's comforting to not need to initiate the interactions or find an icebreaker. I've also found that time with a closed group like this begins to ease the way you feel about interacting with the public in general. I will echo, however, the sentiments that have been made here to not try to label anyone yourself

Great! He's lucky to have a parent to encourage him, then!

Lots of good posts here.

It's been a noticeable thing for decades, or to put it another way - patterns I noticed decades ago in gamers from RPGers to Miniatures gamers in various locales (stores, cons, clubs, social groups, etc) fit perfectly into what I today know about ASD. Even today I know several people via social circles who are clearly on the spectrum who are also avid tabletop gamers. I should clarify that I'm not saying that all gamers - or even most - have ASD, etc. Simply that there is a noticeably higher proportion than in many other hobbies. But you know, I have known people with ASD who can play football and basketball better than I ever could, so again - stereotypes aren't universal.

With younger people (teenagers, etc) pretty much every teen in the world is into videogames, and so there are no surprises at all there that young people with a diagnosis of anything at all are also into video games - and I doubt any especially noticeable proportion as there is in the tabletop hobby or other common things like trains, timetables, sport statistics, etc.

icn1982 wrote:
They (sorry, I don't like the term they for those on the spectrum, but cant think of the right phrase)

Use "people with ASD". It's like "people with epilepsy" rather than "epileptics". Because "they" are people first. (No offence meant on my part - simply a reiteration of how it's been explained to me professionally in the past). No need to go so far as "people with a diagnosis of Autism Spectrum Disorder" unless you're writing a paper.

Without reading any of this, I think there is also a relation between the hobby and people struggling with mental health issues, and I mean no disrespect as I do too. Or at least the people in this community talk about it more publicly, which I think is a good thing personally.

But I think it has something to do with the inviting community. It's one of the reasons I love this community, its inviting to everybody.

Ill turn it the other way round - back when I was teaching (an otherwise sorry tale), I used miniature painting and gaming to calm down a couple of the ADHD kids in the school, and get some of the really shy ones building stuff for themselves and learning rules and gaming to bring them out of their shell.

The sight of a kid sitting quietly, painting and chatting, is a wondrous thing - especially when you know he was bouncing off the walls in the classroom just an hour before.

 JamesY wrote:
Relatively simple test to give an insight;

https://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient/

I'm not claiming it to be a foolproof diagnostic test, but if answered honestly it can give an idea about where on the spectrum you are.

I scored a 33 out of 50, which seems pretty high, almost like I'm on the spectrum, however, I have talked with multiple psychiatrists about my ADD/Dyslexia and almost everyone said I don't have autism

Reaver83 wrote:In Aspergers/Autism, one of the great difficulties is social interaction. Wargames gives you fantastic structure for interactions

This, exactly. I tried joining an Aspergers support group/social thing once. I bailed after about 5 minutes, because the event planning was basically "shove 30 aspies in a room" and that was it. I can usually manage a social situation if it's a social situation with something else (gaming, watching a movie, a book club, ect) as a main focus for that and some kind of structure.

As for why I got into wargaming.....I like collecting stuff, and at least this way I get to use that collection for something aside from desk clutter.

To the OP: Have you seen other groups comprised of normal people out there? Wargamers/40k groups are about as normal bunch of folk as you can get. You are quite free to push your agenda, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius].