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The way I see it, the bikes as troops is a special note for the space marine characters.
If you take that character, he doesn't leave the special note behind when you take him castellans of the Imperium.
Bikes are still listed as FA in a CAD, just as they are in Castellans of the Imperium.
the difference between a CAD and a formation is the list for what units/models can be taken. under the fast attack section for castellans it list the bikes, it does not like them under troops. you can't take units that aren't listed in a formationt for that role unless its a DT(for a unit already listed for that slot). there is no such restriction for CAD
Correct, and to be clear to people reading the thread - Castellans of the Imperium is not a formation, it is a Detachment. It is not subject to the restrictions you describe and acts in exactly the same way as the CAD.
Just got my book in finally and flipped through it and indeed you are correct. It is not a formation but a special detachment. Are the bikes becoming troops ability something from the bikes themselves? If it is then I do change my mind and that yes they can be taken as troops.
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Oberron wrote: Just got my book in finally and flipped through it and indeed you are correct. It is not a formation but a special detachment. Are the bikes becoming troops ability something from the bikes themselves? If it is then I do change my mind and that yes they can be taken as troops.
It is on the Bike Squad Page:
Mounted Assault: If a unit with this special rule is chosen as part of a Detachment that
contains at least one independent character with the Space Marines Faction equipped
with a Space Marine bike, the unit’s Battlefield Role changes to Troops.
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The detachment lists all units that can be taken as troops. The bikes are not on that list. This should be crystal clear. Bikes cannot be taken as troops in this detachment, no matter what.
Now, what is less clear what does 'Mounted Assault' do in the context of this detachment. It could be argued that it actually makes you unable to include both the bikes and a bike mounted character. Why? Because this detachment only allows including bikes as FA which the no longer are. This, however, would be silly. More sensible answer is that 'Mounted Assault' does absolutely nothing. A bit weird, but still the most sensible and the simplest option. The last option is that the bikes are FA for force organisation purposes but still have troops as a battlefield role, allowing them to benefit from the special rule of the detachment. That is rather convoluted and messy solution, though.
Crimson wrote: The detachment lists all units that can be taken as troops. The bikes are not on that list. This should be crystal clear. Bikes cannot be taken as troops in this detachment, no matter what.
Now, what is less clear what does 'Mounted Assault' do in the context of this detachment. It could be argued that it actually makes you unable to include both the bikes and a bike mounted character. Why? Because this detachment only allows including bikes as FA which the no longer are. This, however, would be silly. More sensible answer is that 'Mounted Assault' does absolutely nothing. A bit weird, but still the most sensible and the simplest option. The last option is that the bikes are FA for force organisation purposes but still have troops as a battlefield role, allowing them to benefit from the special rule of the detachment. That is rather convoluted and messy solution, though.
bikes aren't on the list of troops for CAD either but they are still able to be taken as troops because of their special rule
Spoiler:
Mounted Assault: If a unit with this special rule is chosen as part of a Detachment that
contains at least one independent character with the Space Marines Faction equipped
with a Space Marine bike, the unit’s Battlefield Role changes to Troops.
The detatchment is just like a larger CAD and is not a formation, formations restrict on what units can be taken and how many for what role. The bikes are listed as FA which means they are able to be taken as part of the detachment. There hasn't been a rule posted to reject Mounted Assault special rule.
The SM codex also list what can be taken as troops and you won't find bikes part of that either (IIRC), does this mean that bikes can't be taken as troops in a CAD either?
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
bikes aren't on the list of troops for CAD either but they are still able to be taken as troops because of their special rule
There is no list of troops for CAD.
sure there are, it comes with each codex. For reference grabbing my necron codex on page 64 about datasheets "army List Entries: Each Army List Entry contains the following information:...." under point number 2 it states "Battlefield role: The unit's battlefield role is shown here by a symbol. Units in this book have one of the following battlefield roles: <list of roles here>. The symbols for these Battfield Roles are defined in <the BRB>." it is an army list, not a restriction like formations have
Also page 119 of the BRB
Spoiler:
Changing battlefield Roles:
Certain rules can alter a unit's Battlefield Role, changing it, for example, from a Fast Attack unit to a Troops unit. If a unit changes its Battlefield Role due to such a rule, it maintains its new role for the entirety of the game. ...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/20 22:35:36
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Crimson wrote: Sure. The bikes' battlefield role will be changed to troops. It is still not 'one of the following' on the troops section for this detachment.
Which doesn't matter that it isn't listed under troops. It has a special rule that lets it be taken as troops. The detatchment uses a Force organization chart(pg 119 and 120 in the physical brb). The 'one of the following' you keep quoting is how many take up a slot. It is not a formation army list entry. Do you have any rules to back up your claims?
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Oberron wrote: It has a special rule that lets it be taken as troops.
Yes. But not for this detachment. There is a list of units that can be taken as troops for this detachment. The bikes aren't on it.
Mounted Assault: If a unit with this special rule is chosen as part of a Detachment that
contains at least one independent character with the Space Marines Faction equipped
with a Space Marine bike, the unit’s Battlefield Role changes to Troops.
Show me where it says it can not be used in detachments that are not a CAD?
The bikes aren't listed as troops in the space marine codex either but they can still be taken as troops because of the above rule. Show me a rule that denies the use of Mounted Assault in the detachment. The Castellans of the imperium detachment even says we must use the special rules for each unit as described on their datasheets.
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Show me where the bikes are on the troops list for the Castellans of the Imperium.
The difference with SMCAD and the Castellans is that on SMCAD you can fill the troop slots with any SM units with the troops battlefied role. It is not so for the Castellans; here you can fill those slots only with the units specifically named for that purpose.
See the difference? One is 'any SM troop' the other is 'one of these'. It's not the same situation.
Crimson wrote: Show me where the bikes are on the troops list for the Castellans of the Imperium.
The difference with SMCAD and the Castellans is that on SMCAD you can fill the troop slots with any SM units with the troops battlefied role. It is not so for the Castellans; here you can fill those slots only with the units specifically named for that purpose.
See the difference? One is 'any SM troop' the other is 'one of these'. It's not the same situation.
I can't show you a list that isn't there but that list is for army list entries and are not restrictions like formations have when listing units. Which is just like CAD and codex of choice.
First off they are the same situation. The bikes are listed in fast attack, not troops, just like with a normal CAD. Castellans makes a list of battlefield roles. Bikes have a rule to change their battlefield role to troops.
Second can you give me a rule quote for what i underlined in your quote?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/20 23:26:12
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
So does this mean that Armoured Battlegroup Leman Russ Tank Squadrons can be taken as Troops choices for a Castellan Detachment even though they're not on the list? They're troops and they're Faction: AM.
Conversely, can the Command Tank be taken in addition to the Tank Commander as an HQ option?
Unit1126PLL wrote: So does this mean that Armoured Battlegroup Leman Russ Tank Squadrons can be taken as Troops choices for a Castellan Detachment even though they're not on the list? They're troops and they're Faction: AM.
Conversely, can the Command Tank be taken in addition to the Tank Commander as an HQ option?
Does the armoured battlegroup leman russ tank squad have a special rule that lets it become troops in an army list? Or is it a special type of troop army list entry? There is a Leman Russ Squadron under heavy but nothing with the exact name of "Armoured Battlegroup Leman Russ tank Squadron" that I can see.
As for the Command tank and tank commander I do not know their rules in relations to one another. Elaborate?
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Crimson wrote: Show me where the bikes are on the troops list for the Castellans of the Imperium.
The difference with SMCAD and the Castellans is that on SMCAD you can fill the troop slots with any SM units with the troops battlefied role. It is not so for the Castellans; here you can fill those slots only with the units specifically named for that purpose.
See the difference? One is 'any SM troop' the other is 'one of these'. It's not the same situation.
On to a loser here, Crimson,.
Bikes could not possibly be listed as Troops. If they were listed in the troops section then you could take them as troops whatever your HQ was.
As it stands - exactly like the CAD - you can take them as fast attack and then they become troops only if you take a bike HQ.
Also...
There is no list of troops for CAD.
Of course there is! Every Codex has an army list, split by FOC. I create a CAD, choose its faction (for example marines) and then look in the codex to find my troop options are Scouts and Tac Squads.
The difference here which is obviously causing confusion is that the forces are not from a single faction, so the Fall of Cadia book needs to state exactly where the rule (edit: Datasheet) comes from. In some cases (Inqusition, Adepta Sororitas) they need to specify one or both possible sources.
If you read the detachment info, it specifcally says "all special rules are ported in from the codex".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/20 23:43:32
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I can't show you a list that isn't there but that list is for army list entries and are not restrictions like formations have when listing units.
Why? Why you think that the list of allowed units is not a list of allowed units?
Second can you give me a rule quote for what i underlined in your quote?
I told you already: you can change the battlefield role, but that does not put the bikes on the list of allowed troop units.
So no rules quote, just your opinion then?
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Why don't we refer to what the Castellans of the Imperium Detachment datasheet says?
"The Castellans of the Imperium Detachment Army List divides the units available into several categories, according to their Battlefield Role."
This tells us the list is of allowed units, simply divided into their Battlefield Roles. That is not a requirement the units available actually fill those Battlefield Roles.
Further, the next sentence says:
"You must use the profiles, points costs, equipment, options, special rules and any Dedicated Transports available to each unit as described on their datasheet."
You must use the special rules on their datasheet, which includes Mounted Assault.
Therefore we now know two things:
1) They are an available unit, ordinarily with the Fast Attack Battlefield Role.
2) We must use their Mounted Assault special rule if applicable, which changes their Battlefield Role to Troops and doesn't stop them being an available unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/21 00:04:51
Crimson wrote:Nor you have any rules support for taking units not on the list.
This whole thing boils down to whether one considers the lists given with the detachment to be definite and closed or not.
But I have, you still have yet to be able to prove that it is definite and closed, I have shown that it works just like with CAD army list entry as well as couple other people but you ignore those post. The bikes are listed in fast attack, not troops, just like with a normal CAD, just like in the space marine codex. Castellans makes a list of battlefield roles, you can tell they are different than a formations exclusive list because the rules say it is a list of army list entries and shown with the symbols of each role. Bikes have a rule to change their battlefield role to troops from fast attack.
Spoiler:
Mr. Shine wrote:Why don't we refer to what the Castellans of the Imperium Detachment datasheet says?
"The Castellans of the Imperium Detachment Army List divides the units available into several categories, according to their Battlefield Role."
This tells us the list is of allowed units, simply divided into their Battlefield Roles. That is not a requirement the units available actually fill those Battlefield Roles.
Further, the next sentence says:
"You must use the profiles, points costs, equipment, options, special rules and any Dedicated Transports available to each unit as described on their datasheet."
You must use the special rules on their datasheet, which includes Mounted Assault.
Therefore we now know two things:
1) They are an available unit, ordinarily with the Fast Attack Battlefield Role.
2) We must use their Mounted Assault special rule if applicable, which changes their Battlefield Role to Troops and doesn't stop them being an available unit.
I rarely agree with mr.shine but yes this is another way of stating it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/21 00:21:18
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
But I have, you still have yet to be able to prove that it is definite and closed, I have shown that it works just like with CAD army list entry as well as couple other people but you ignore those post. The bikes are listed in fast attack, not troops, just like with a normal CAD, just like in the space marine codex.
Right. You think that the list is like unit entries in a codex. I think it is like a list of allowed units in a formation. Of course it is not a formation nor it is a army list in a codex, but I still think it is more like former than the latter. The problem is that this (and the Grand Convocation) is an unique type of an detachment and there's no clear precedent.
Oberron wrote:I rarely agree with mr.shine but yes this is another way of stating it.
*high five*
Crimson wrote:Right. You think that the list is like unit entries in a codex. I think it is like a list of allowed units in a formation. Of course it is not a formation nor it is a army list in a codex, but I still think it is more like former than the latter. The problem is that this (and the Grand Convocation) is an unique type of an detachment and there's no clear precedent.
The rules I quoted tell you they are allowed units, grouped by Battlefield Role. There is nothing which says they must only be taken in that Battlefield Role.
Hmm, you know what? I know one is not supposed to do this on internet, but: I may have been wrong. Mr. Shine's breakdown of the text in particular helped me to see the argument better. It is hella unclear case though. FAQ is definitely needed and I would not be willing to bet huge sums on either of these interpretations.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/21 01:32:17
Unit1126PLL wrote: So does this mean that Armoured Battlegroup Leman Russ Tank Squadrons can be taken as Troops choices for a Castellan Detachment even though they're not on the list? They're troops and they're Faction: AM.
Conversely, can the Command Tank be taken in addition to the Tank Commander as an HQ option?
Does the armoured battlegroup leman russ tank squad have a special rule that lets it become troops in an army list? Or is it a special type of troop army list entry? There is a Leman Russ Squadron under heavy but nothing with the exact name of "Armoured Battlegroup Leman Russ tank Squadron" that I can see.
As for the Command tank and tank commander I do not know their rules in relations to one another. Elaborate?
Armoured Battlegroup is an Army List from Forge World (in Imperial Armour Volume 1: 2nd Edition) that is Faction: Imperial Guard but can also ally with Codex: Imperial Guard.
Leman Russ Tank Squadrons are troops choices along with Armoured Fist squads and Veteran squads. A Command Tank (as opposed to a Tank Commander) is an HQ.
Since the lists of units available in each battlefield role are not binding, and Imperial Guard is one of the Factions allowed in the detachment, then can Armoured Battlegroup Leman Russ tank squadrons be taken as Troops choices?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Armoured Battlegroup is an Army List from Forge World (in Imperial Armour Volume 1: 2nd Edition) that is Faction: Imperial Guard but can also ally with Codex: Imperial Guard.
Leman Russ Tank Squadrons are troops choices along with Armoured Fist squads and Veteran squads. A Command Tank (as opposed to a Tank Commander) is an HQ.
Since the lists of units available in each battlefield role are not binding, and Imperial Guard is one of the Factions allowed in the detachment, then can Armoured Battlegroup Leman Russ tank squadrons be taken as Troops choices?
Castellans of the Imperium tells you where to find the datasheet to which the available unit reference refers. In this case it tells you to look at Codex: Astra Militarum, not the Armoured Battle Group Army List.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So does this mean that Armoured Battlegroup Leman Russ Tank Squadrons can be taken as Troops choices for a Castellan Detachment even though they're not on the list? They're troops and they're Faction: AM.
Conversely, can the Command Tank be taken in addition to the Tank Commander as an HQ option?
Does the armoured battlegroup leman russ tank squad have a special rule that lets it become troops in an army list? Or is it a special type of troop army list entry? There is a Leman Russ Squadron under heavy but nothing with the exact name of "Armoured Battlegroup Leman Russ tank Squadron" that I can see.
As for the Command tank and tank commander I do not know their rules in relations to one another. Elaborate?
Armoured Battlegroup is an Army List from Forge World (in Imperial Armour Volume 1: 2nd Edition) that is Faction: Imperial Guard but can also ally with Codex: Imperial Guard.
Leman Russ Tank Squadrons are troops choices along with Armoured Fist squads and Veteran squads. A Command Tank (as opposed to a Tank Commander) is an HQ.
Since the lists of units available in each battlefield role are not binding, and Imperial Guard is one of the Factions allowed in the detachment, then can Armoured Battlegroup Leman Russ tank squadrons be taken as Troops choices?
Does the Armoured Battlegroup have a special rule that allows it to take the role of troops and replace another unit that is on the list?
Does the leman russ squadron have a special rule that lets it change battlefield roles? As it is listed in castellans of the imperium detachment its battlefield role is heavy support.
Does the command tank have a special rule that it can replace the Tank Commander?
Legitimate questions btw, I seriously do not know what those units can do. The only imperial army I play is SoB and use to play a little bit of BA.
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
Oberron wrote: Does the Armoured Battlegroup have a special rule that allows it to take the role of troops and replace another unit that is on the list?
Does the leman russ squadron have a special rule that lets it change battlefield roles? As it is listed in castellans of the imperium detachment its battlefield role is heavy support.
Does the command tank have a special rule that it can replace the Tank Commander?
Legitimate questions btw, I seriously do not know what those units can do. The only imperial army I play is SoB and use to play a little bit of BA.
The Armoured Battle Group has its own army list and army list entries, including one for a Battle Tank Squadron. Because Castellans of the Imperium Detachment tells us it specifies where the datasheet to which the available units list refers, we know we cannot use an Armoured Battle Group Battle Tank Squadron in a Castellans of the Imperium Detachment.
I guess I'm starting to see the battlefield roles in the list as being changeable by the rules they, but that raises questions about all the other choices that are restricted/slotless in their rules, and probably means my first attempts at a list are illegal (Ministorum Priests are slotless in the AS codex and probably don't count for the mandatory 2+ HQs).
Ministorum Priests in IA are not slotless. You just take one of those.
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The real question is when does a units rules come into effect?
Ie: I think the argument should be made that you must take a unit before you can benefit from their rules; thus the bikes cannot be taken initially to meet the 4+ Troops component of the detachment.
HOWEVER
You could take 4 troops, a Captain on a bike and take 6 bike squads as fast attack choices - and those bikes would THEN become Troops choices and thus benefit from the Flock to the Front Line rule
But the question must be asked when a units special rules come into effect (ie during list building, deployment, etc.)
