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 Peregrine wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I hate it when people do this. Shows they have no passion for their dudes, just chasing a win. In a tournament I can understand, but a game with your mate? You should be ashamed at the lack of respect for your chapter.

Yeah, how dare people try to win a game where the goal is to build a winning list and then defeat your opponent with it.

Telling someone off for playing different tactics with their painted marines seems like a recipe for being that guy.

dosiere wrote:
My collection is painted as ultramarines, which I started in 5th edition.

You mean painted as the Bluebird Defenders (Raven Guard successor chapter) or Cobalt Gauntlets (Imperial Fists successor chapter).

I'd encourage anyone that has issues with people changing the chapter tactics to pay for full commission jobs for your friends. That might give a bit of perspective on why it's not feasible to paint a whole new army to use different chapter tactics.

No problem with it at all

So long as it looks like a marine

And has the right weapon load outs

 Rippy wrote:
I hate it when people do this. Shows they have no passion for their dudes, just chasing a win. In a tournament I can understand, but a game with your mate? You should be ashamed at the lack of respect for your chapter.

The Salamanders follow the Codex Astartes which was written by Roboute Guilliman. The Ultramarines fight almost exclusively in accordance with the same book. Why can't Salamanders then use the Ultramarines chapter tactics? Logically any Codex adherent chapter could.

 TheCustomLime wrote:


The Salamanders follow the Codex Astartes which was written by Roboute Guilliman. The Ultramarines fight almost exclusively in accordance with the same book. Why can't Salamanders then use the Ultramarines chapter tactics? Logically any Codex adherent chapter could.

This, exactly. As I said before, using alternate tactics should be something chapters can do when it's needed or useful, fluffwise. Now, Rippy might have a point when it comes to characters ("behold, the amazing multi-marine! Able to become anyone, anytime, for any role! He's Calgar, right? Look now he's He'stan, and soon he'll be someone else! It's the multi-marine, the man who can be anyone!"), but having your HQ running a different set of tactics isn't the worst thing in the world.

I am just happy to play against a fully painted army... who really cares.

In the last year in ITC tournaments I think I've played against every color white scars except white.


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And my TWC are red and white.

 Skylifter1000 wrote:
I wouldn't mind my opponent doing that, but I just wouldn't do it myself.

If I paint Ultramarines, I'll take their rules. Whatever they currently are. I value the storytelling aspect in beer&pretzel games and that is ruined when my Ultramarines 'feel very Fisty today'.

Fluff can be flexible. For example, my bike captain fought along side the White Scars during a long campaign, picked up a lot of their tricks, and made a lot of friends. Even going as far as to exchange helmets as a sign of brotherhood. When he returned to the Chapter, he brought many of these lessens home with him, and passed them on to his troops.

We ride for Macragge!


I normally still run UM tactics. That’s who I am. I have written lists using other tactics, but never actually got them on the table.

 mew28 wrote:
I mean I have my army painted like ultra marines but hate ultramarine chapter tactics so I normal use them as Iron Hands.

Same here - don't give a Gak what anyone says ether. The color of your army has no bearing on their rules.


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 deviantduck wrote:
In the last year in ITC tournaments I think I've played against every color white scars except white.


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And my TWC are red and white.

Good point - Gladius does not benift anything except iron hands and white scars by a large margin - yet they all use the same models. Even at the tournament level people don't have a say in what tactics you are gonna use for your marines.


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 troa wrote:
I'd encourage anyone that has issues with people changing the chapter tactics to pay for full commission jobs for your friends. That might give a bit of perspective on why it's not feasible to paint a whole new army to use different chapter tactics.

Exactly.

 Peregrine wrote:

dosiere wrote:
My collection is painted as ultramarines, which I started in 5th edition.

You mean painted as the Bluebird Defenders (Raven Guard successor chapter) or Cobalt Gauntlets (Imperial Fists successor chapter).

This and exalted.

 mrhappyface wrote:
It's allowed, but it isn't fluffy.

Fluffy is akin to cool and the rule of cool always trumps army performance in my book.

Pretty much this.

I've noticed that events in the US are really not bothered by it but far more competitive in general.
Events in the UK are half and half.
Events in Australia are really big on comp scores, theme and fluffy lists so showing up with a Salamanders army and saying 'Oh, they're using Iron Hands tactics' is a no-no.


Personally? As a one off I'm not that fussed.

But if you plan on using White Scars tactics on your Ultramarines long term (for example) I better see your Ultramarines being painted and modelled up as 6th Company with perhaps some effort to make them a bit more distinct.

To some degree though that's the lottery of taking a 'named' Chapter. Sometimes you win with rules, sometimes you lose. If you wanted an army that can be flexibly taken as anything your best bet would have been a homebrew Chapter or relatively unknown one.

If somebody tries to dictate what colors you paint your army, you don't want to be playing against them. They've lost sight of the fact that it's a game, and are trying to dictate how you have to play. And they're wrong. You paint your SMs any color you want and pick whatever tactic you want. Have fun. If they're a fluff fan, make up a backstory of being a successor chapter that excels at the tactics you're using. Anyone who argues doesn't deserve your time.

So, question for those that hate it when people play a marine list that doesn't match the color of their army-- what about a marine army that isn't painted like any particular marine army, and is the player's custom army? Are they thus unplayable as they don't match any canon army colors so no codex fits them?

It's kinda ridiculous to me. One of the biggest draws for 40k is being able to paint your minis however you want to begin with.

 Melissia wrote:
So, question for those that hate it when people play a marine list that doesn't match the color of their army-- what about a marine army that isn't painted like any particular marine army, and is the player's custom army? Are they thus unplayable as they don't match any canon army colors so no codex fits them?

It's kinda ridiculous to me. One of the biggest draws for 40k is being able to paint your minis however you want to begin with.

As I already stated.

Homebrew is fairly flexible.

But hey, if you want theme points for composition that's more than acheivable even with homebrew. Some slight Templar/Knightly nods can indicate a BT or Fists chapter tactic. Bionics can indicate Iron Hands. Flames/scale hides for Salamanders, pelts can indicate SW or Scars (if on bikes).

My old army used Fist chapter Tactics - relative unknowns (Imperial Paladins), templar crosses in their visuals but more than suited as Fist successors. If I had wanted to use Iron Hands tactics I would've put a lot of emphasis on bionics and Techmarines.

You can theme an army easily enough.

Plus if you've got an Ultramarine army that large or that old, why the hell are you not painting companies up? Got 6th company? Use the 6th company for your Scars!

I love my SW, love the playstyles, love the fluff, love the models but Wolf Grey and Canary Gold is UGLY so I paint them 30k Gunmetal with Gold trim and Candy Red markings.
Had people ask why I put Iron Hands, Blood Angels and even Black Legion on Thunderwolves? I'm sure plenty were just trolling but occassionally I get one that has a serious issue.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I love my SW, love the playstyles, love the fluff, love the models but Wolf Grey and Canary Gold is UGLY so I paint them 30k Gunmetal with Gold trim and Candy Red markings.
Had people ask why I put Iron Hands, Blood Angels and even Black Legion on Thunderwolves? I'm sure plenty were just trolling but occassionally I get one that has a serious issue.

A lot of those is fishing lol.

Friend has a DA successor chapter. Red and green trims were the colours he decided on. Chapter symbol is an odd combination - Wolf head with a sword through it. Even went on to work background out that their heraldry was a nod toward the Wolf-DA rivalry and a testament to their appointed Chapter Master's skill in those honour duels.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
[snip]

What if you painted an army white armor with gold trim and dark red cloth, and made them use Ultramarine tactics? What if you liked blood red on your space marines, but didn't want to play blood angels? What if you want to play a Grey Knights style army but wanted to paint them a green camo pattern instead of silver? What if you want to play Space Wolves with a color scheme that isn't an abomination against the eyes?

IMO none of these are wrong. The painting aspect of the hobby should give people freedom, not force people to paint a certain way. And as long as the person makes it clear what they are playing when the game starts, it should be perfectly acceptable regardless of what variant marine army they choose.

 Melissia wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
[snip]

What if you painted an army white armor with gold trim and dark red cloth, and made them use Ultramarine tactics? What if you liked blood red on your space marines, but didn't want to play blood angels? What if you want to play a Grey Knights style army but wanted to paint them a green camo pattern instead of silver? What if you want to play Space Wolves with a color scheme that isn't an abomination against the eyes?

IMO none of these are wrong. The painting aspect of the hobby should give people freedom, not force people to paint a certain way. And as long as the person makes it clear what they are playing when the game starts, it should be perfectly acceptable regardless of what variant marine army they choose.

And have I ever said it was? No.

There's more than enough successor chapters out there to cover that. Red Dark Angels? Not a problem. White and red Ultras? Not a problem. You seem hellbent to infer that I'm saying otherwise.

The issue if anything is a clarity issue of Ultramarines being fielded as Raven Guard or White Scars or whatever other Chapter Tactic is ruled at the strongest at the time.

And to be frank, this is something I've only ever seen with SM players.

You don't see Black Legion players going 'actually, these are Death Guard.' You don't see Death Guard players going 'actually, these are Emperor's Children.' I suppose that's always been a difference. CSM players? We picked our Legions and stuck with them. Even our Renegade warbands still have clear indication of what they are aligned to.And we've done that through gak rules and otherwise.

And even then I'm not saying 'NEVER!' What I'm saying is put some effort in.

You want to field Bike-heavy Ultramarines with White Scars tactics? 6th Company. Appropriate trims, some appropriate modelling and you're fine.
Want Assault Heavy Raven Guard tactics? 8th Company.

There's a huge difference between someone who's just playing for what's strongest or someone who went 'Hey, that's a neat idea' and is going for the theme. Hell, I've seen Ultramarines fielded as Deathwing - you know what? I was cool with that. Because the guy converted and modelled things appropriately. You had a command squad with a banner (converted from the FW Venerable Dread and that dead 'nid Carcass) and he'd converted up his Belial equivalent with Ultra insignia and kept the theme of the Ultras.

And would I mind the Black Legion player fielding 'Death Guard'? Not if he'd decided to paint them up as Bringers of Decay. Or went with the 3.5 approach of the original Legion colours being kept on the shoulder for those that defected (or vice versa).

I've been considering using some of my Dark Angels stuff as "Green Marines" in order to try out some of the cool detachments and chapters from the vanilla Marines book. I don't know if I'd take it to a tournament like that, but maybe if I could use it for Skyhammer or something...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The issue if anything is a clarity issue of Ultramarines being fielded as Raven Guard or White Scars or whatever other Chapter Tactic is ruled at the strongest at the time.

You mean the White Omegas (blue base with white chapter symbol), a Raven Guard successor chapter, being fielded with Raven Guard tactics? It's not my fault you assumed my models were Ultramarines instead of a chapter of my own invention.

Also, why is it bad to use the rules that are strongest? Can we stop with the "casual at all costs" attitude that trying to improve one's list is some kind of shameful activity?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I love my SW, love the playstyles, love the fluff, love the models but Wolf Grey and Canary Gold is UGLY so I paint them 30k Gunmetal with Gold trim and Candy Red markings.
Had people ask why I put Iron Hands, Blood Angels and even Black Legion on Thunderwolves? I'm sure plenty were just trolling but occassionally I get one that has a serious issue.

A lot of those is fishing lol.

Friend has a DA successor chapter. Red and green trims were the colours he decided on. Chapter symbol is an odd combination - Wolf head with a sword through it. Even went on to work background out that their heraldry was a nod toward the Wolf-DA rivalry and a testament to their appointed Chapter Master's skill in those honour duels.

Is there a difference between fishing and trolling?

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The issue if anything is a clarity issue of Ultramarines being fielded as Raven Guard or White Scars or whatever other Chapter Tactic is ruled at the strongest at the time.

You mean the White Omegas (blue base with white chapter symbol), a Raven Guard successor chapter, being fielded with Raven Guard tactics? It's not my fault you assumed my models were Ultramarines instead of a chapter of my own invention.

Also, why is it bad to use the rules that are strongest? Can we stop with the "casual at all costs" attitude that trying to improve one's list is some kind of shameful activity?

Now if you actually went the effort and even painted things to show nods to their Raven Guard heritage and made them somewhat different from Ultramarines? I'd be more than fine with that. No, really, I would.

And it's not bad per say using the rules that are strongest. It's when you basically start min maxing and upping the cheese while doing so.

Oh, so people should be fine with you swapping out chapter tactics on a whim to follow whatever competitive meta may exist, even for your local area?

Guess you really can't raise a word against Scatbike/Hornet/WK spam then, eh?

I don't mind people improving their lists. I don't mind people trying new things out. I do mind people bringing the wrong sort of attitude into the wrong sort of environment though. Win At All Costs has no place in casual pick up games in local areas. If your local is that hyper competitive that you pretty much can't use anything non-meta or 'weak' for the sake of it or testing an idea out because you will get facerolled from the word go?

Well, sorry for you man. But I've grown pretty sick and tired of that approach as a whole. When a game is less about fun and more about nothing but winning then people are lost.


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 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I love my SW, love the playstyles, love the fluff, love the models but Wolf Grey and Canary Gold is UGLY so I paint them 30k Gunmetal with Gold trim and Candy Red markings.
Had people ask why I put Iron Hands, Blood Angels and even Black Legion on Thunderwolves? I'm sure plenty were just trolling but occassionally I get one that has a serious issue.

A lot of those is fishing lol.

Friend has a DA successor chapter. Red and green trims were the colours he decided on. Chapter symbol is an odd combination - Wolf head with a sword through it. Even went on to work background out that their heraldry was a nod toward the Wolf-DA rivalry and a testament to their appointed Chapter Master's skill in those honour duels.

Is there a difference between fishing and trolling?

Not much. To be frank, ignore those people asking that. Show us a photo by all means. I'm failing to see how people mistake gunmetal and gold for Iron Hands, Blood Angels or Black Legion. Hell, at a stretch I might have wondered if they were Iron Warriors (and perhaps you had done a Chaos Wolves army - though I'd still have assumed you were using the SW codex for that matter) but that's only going on gunmetal and gold trims. And the moment you said, nope, wolf successors. Fair enough.

And yeah, the SW scheme looks so much better if you simply switch to the dark pre-heresy grey instead.

If someone used a certain colour, I'd have no issue with what Chapter you played. Homebrew Chapters or existing fluff chapters fit that bill.

It's iconography that would mess me up. The white omega inverted on blue is the UM symbol. The black winged Blood Drop on the red is the Blood Angels. If you changed anything about that, it would be fine (ie, making the omega the right ways up, or changing it's colour, or the colour of the Space Marine generally.) But keeping it exactly the same would probably be what I'd have an issue with. Especially with the UM example, it's not hard to paint it a different colour, or flip it the right way up. It's not a full repaint.

If it's a case of "I've already painted this" - fine. But I would request that, if you had a spare moment, you might consider it, in the same vein I'd ask someone to consider painting an unpainted model. Just the logo, nothing else.

If it's a case of "I like the Chapter/Chapter logo, but don't like their rules", I'd go with it, but the fluffy side of me wouldn't like it. If it's the Chapter logo, how bad would changing the colour be? Even changing the Ultramarine logo to black technically makes them a new Chapter, so that's fine. But if the only reason is game mechanics, I'd be less happy, but have to go with it.

What Smudge said.

And even then, I will digress.

I am not fussed...if you put a bit of effort in. Like I've said - want to run White Scars Ultras? Ok, um, 6th or 8th Company - those are the companies that could be wholly mounted on Bikes. So do their trims appropriate. Perhaps model your characters to look a bit more scrappy (bare heads, shaved heads, perhaps a mustache) so that it seems a better fit. That's not straying outside your chosen Chapter's general appearance that much at all. If anything it's a Codex Astartes appropriate representation of what you want to do.

If you want Assault heavy Raven Guard chapter tactics? Well, 8th Company then. That's the Assault Company.

It's not much. It's literally a change of trims and some iconography or markings. But it's more acceptable than the same Ultramarines 2nd company army being Ultras one week (to exploit Sicarius), White Scars the next (because that's the meta) and the Imperial Fists the following.

And I suppose that just comes down to the nature of the player and the nature of the game. When you have tournaments where people have faced White Scars painted in every colour scheme but actual White Scars or successors, that says a lot.

What are people's thought about this idea. I like the look and background of Chaos Space Marines especially the Black Legion, and I decided to pick up the Dark Vengeance to dip my toe into 40K.

If I do decide to build a full army, I will likely use the Dark Angels as renegades and pretty much only add Chaos Space Marine Units (like tactical, rhinos, and maybe jump pack troops) that have an analogous Space Marine equivalent. I don't really care for any of the demon stuff including the marks, artifacts, or specific units (except for Noise Marines but without guitars what's the point).

So am half a mind to just go vanilla Space Marine for rules but model army as Black Legion with fallen Dark Angels mixed . I plan on the army being fluffy with it being mostly new traitors some of which has had their armor and weapons altered to not suddenly get shot up by other Chaos or perhaps even changed just by being in the warp.

I think it still fits in with the Black Legion as they are still totally behind Abbadon who they view as the true Emperor so long as Horus is truly dead, they just don't care to give over their souls to Chaos (the war band does not wish to be puppets for the Empire, Demons or Chaos). Which completely fits the fluff of the Black Legion while not forcing me to have a completely worthless army since I don't want to take any demon, mark of Chaos, or Chaos specific unit. Which my understanding would be even weaker than a regular Chaos Space Marine army as I am cutting out a lot of options.

I think most of us answer this question once every two weeks:

We don't care as long as the rules are consistent. If you paint up a bunch of Storm Wardens and want to use Salamanders rules this week, that's totally fine. But if one half of your Storm Wardens are Salamanders and the other half is Ultramarines, with absolutely no way to tell them apart at first glance (so not just tiny trinkets or kneepads being a different color), then we're gonna have an issue, since your models are liable to change chapters during the course of the game (whether intentional or not).

As long as your models are clear, you can paint them a floral salmon and periwinkle and no one would care. Hell I've painted up Marines in the color of Word Bearers (although they were still using the loyalist marine models) and used ultramarine rules for them and no one cared.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I love my SW, love the playstyles, love the fluff, love the models but Wolf Grey and Canary Gold is UGLY so I paint them 30k Gunmetal with Gold trim and Candy Red markings.
Had people ask why I put Iron Hands, Blood Angels and even Black Legion on Thunderwolves? I'm sure plenty were just trolling but occassionally I get one that has a serious issue.

A lot of those is fishing lol.

Friend has a DA successor chapter. Red and green trims were the colours he decided on. Chapter symbol is an odd combination - Wolf head with a sword through it. Even went on to work background out that their heraldry was a nod toward the Wolf-DA rivalry and a testament to their appointed Chapter Master's skill in those honour duels.

Is there a difference between fishing and trolling?

Not much. To be frank, ignore those people asking that. Show us a photo by all means. I'm failing to see how people mistake gunmetal and gold for Iron Hands, Blood Angels or Black Legion. Hell, at a stretch I might have wondered if they were Iron Warriors (and perhaps you had done a Chaos Wolves army - though I'd still have assumed you were using the SW codex for that matter) but that's only going on gunmetal and gold trims. And the moment you said, nope, wolf successors. Fair enough.

And yeah, the SW scheme looks so much better if you simply switch to the dark pre-heresy grey instead.

Not my best paint job but the only photo I have on hand.

See, I have no problem with that. And I'll show mine or those I worked on the schemes for.

From left to right....(taken a fair few years ago).

My Imperial Paladins, a friend's Wardens of Ultramar (Ultra successors that used the DA robes and had a St Georges Cross approach in terms of heraldry) and one of the Crimson Wolves (DA successor mentioned earlier.)

timetowaste85 wrote:If somebody tries to dictate what colors you paint your army, you don't want to be playing against them. They've lost sight of the fact that it's a game, and are trying to dictate how you have to play. And they're wrong. You paint your SMs any color you want and pick whatever tactic you want. Have fun. If they're a fluff fan, make up a backstory of being a successor chapter that excels at the tactics you're using. Anyone who argues doesn't deserve your time.

Very well said. It just speaks of the character of a person who says to anyone how something should be done with their time, their money, and what they like. Just because someone likes something different nobody should tell anyone on what you can and can not do.