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As a Thousand Sons player, let me throw in my two cents.

Running our Legion at 2k points and above we can be very solid. Guard of the crimson king is an amazing rite and our terminators are mean. The Intersession occult are useful as well, not a fan of the blade occult since they really need a transport to be useful.

Now Magnus.

Magnus is just busted. I ran him with pure Sanctic Demonology and he with a 5 man scarab occult body guard solo'ed multiple super heavies, tanks, and squads thanks to the D nova and being able to teleport.

Are we talking about the same 30k space wolves?

Besides Leman Russ' extremely impressive armor (probably the best primarch armor currently), the wolves are at the lower end of the power scale. Their legion rules are iffy (e.g. more HQ tax required), their unique wargear is subpar (frost weapons...), ok RoW's, grey slayers don't work well with IC's, and their special units are weak.

Just an all around weak legion with + broken primarch armor.

Now, if space wolf IC's got warriors mettle, then I would say that they are a solid legion. Two wounds on varagyr would be nice as well.

Thousand Sons are on the top end of strong, and can be game breaking very easily. There's no realistic way to stop their psychic powers, and if you have a librarian or two in your list, Thousand Sons will pretty reliably shut them down.

There are just so many bonuses to the Legion that taken alone or in small numbers are fine. All together, with Magnus they just get silly. The Cult bonuses are neat, but then you tailor them and you have heavy weapons re rolling ones, Terminators with 3++ and then add in the Guard of the Crimson King and things get really hard to handle. Put Magnus in there and it gets almost impossible.

What is there in 30k that can handle Magnus with Santic Demonology teleporting in, next to a psykers scout squad with 3+ cover or outflanking Vets with Nuncio Voxes so he doesn't scatter, bringing a body guard of 2+/3++ 2 wound Terminators who have a Praetor and a Primus Medicae who can get eternal warrior and feel no pain. Then he starts throwing out D novas. And then he can teleport out too.

What in 30k answers that? Our answer was three 2500 point armies. We lost. Magnus killed a Glaive, Spartan, two Land Raiders, Sicaran, five Rhinos and dozens of infantry. We never even wounded him, and never even killed all his body guard.

Russ and Sigismund charged Magnus and Cataphract Sekhmet. We brought Templar Bretheren, Wolf Terminators, three Wolf Characters and Ultramarine Suzerin.

We. Still. Lost. Completely.

Thousand Sons can be built to be not as crazy, but the player has to tailor their list to not be stupid powerful. The list can be easily built to be nearly unkillable. Add in Magnus and it pretty much is.

Oh and you can take Magnus as the HQ in GotCK. Because why not.

Magnus is really really good. Sehkmet are crazy solid. The rest is sound. So yeah TS are good, but so are other steramlined legions.

D novas aren't the correct reading of the rules. People need to stop doing it.

the42up wrote:
Are we talking about the same 30k space wolves?

Besides Leman Russ' extremely impressive armor (probably the best primarch armor currently), the wolves are at the lower end of the power scale. Their legion rules are iffy (e.g. more HQ tax required), their unique wargear is subpar (frost weapons...), ok RoW's, grey slayers don't work well with IC's, and their special units are weak.

Just an all around weak legion with + broken primarch armor.

Now, if space wolf IC's got warriors mettle, then I would say that they are a solid legion. Two wounds on varagyr would be nice as well.

Maaan, I'd love to trade Cadere weapons for some of those frost weapons. I like the idea, but the execution is so very not awesome.

 Bromsy wrote:

the42up wrote:
Are we talking about the same 30k space wolves?

Besides Leman Russ' extremely impressive armor (probably the best primarch armor currently), the wolves are at the lower end of the power scale. Their legion rules are iffy (e.g. more HQ tax required), their unique wargear is subpar (frost weapons...), ok RoW's, grey slayers don't work well with IC's, and their special units are weak.

Just an all around weak legion with + broken primarch armor.

Now, if space wolf IC's got warriors mettle, then I would say that they are a solid legion. Two wounds on varagyr would be nice as well.

Maaan, I'd love to trade Cadere weapons for some of those frost weapons. I like the idea, but the execution is so very not awesome.

The design approach in Book 1 was dramatically different than that in Book 7, that's for sure.

Well, considering the same book that brought TS brought a direct counter to them (SoS), I'm guessing that FW at least didn't -totally- dropped the ball?


However, once we put primarchs aside, TS step down from the pedastel of being broken and are regulated to merely being very good.


Woofs on the other hand? go from "meh" to "but why".

So, its not much of a power creep but that of all legions so far, TS drew the longest straw, and were in the last book. but the very same book brought a legion srawing a rather short straw.

Most of the legions have had amendments to their rules since arriving in their respective books. World Eaters close combat prowess was pretty negligible on the first run of Betrayal, but was improved for Isstvan Legion red book.

With Angelus being confirmed to have amendments/additions made to Night Lords as well as BA and DA, the possibility of other legions being uplifted in power level is very real. At the end of the day Forge World need to make money from publications as well as models and the amount of stuff that can be covered is staggering. Back in 2016 Inferno was suppoused to include Prospero Spireguard so no doubt they will bleed me for that in future.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

D novas aren't the correct reading of the rules. People need to stop doing it.

There's no other way to read it. The rule specifically calls out Witchfire powers. Novas are a sub-type of Witchfires.

I don't get to play a lot of HH. I prefer it over 40k but there's less 30k locally then there is 40k.

I play World Eaters as Angron is by far my favorite primarch, betrayer my favorite book and Kharn my favorite character, so all points pointed to World Eaters.

So far I have played Space Wolves, Emperors Children, Blood angels, Ion Warriors and Ravenguard. I don't feel on the back foot any game. Inductii are horrendous, Standard tacs having 4 attacks on the charge with PE (Under BA) is amazing. Red Butchers give me great pleasure and I mean I get to field Kharn, what more do I need from a game.

My Falchion never under performs I am about 4k of my legion and the next plan is to get up to 60 tacs (All with Chain axes / Pistols of course) and add 2 sicirans and a Levitahan in a pod.

Space Wolves scare me, 20 man blobs of Grey Slayers with 5-6 power weapons in and are really hard to remove unless you've teched for mass anti infantry.

 Thanatos73 wrote:
Thousand Sons are on the top end of strong, and can be game breaking very easily. There's no realistic way to stop their psychic powers, and if you have a librarian or two in your list, Thousand Sons will pretty reliably shut them down.

There are just so many bonuses to the Legion that taken alone or in small numbers are fine. All together, with Magnus they just get silly. The Cult bonuses are neat, but then you tailor them and you have heavy weapons re rolling ones, Terminators with 3++ and then add in the Guard of the Crimson King and things get really hard to handle. Put Magnus in there and it gets almost impossible.

What is there in 30k that can handle Magnus with Santic Demonology teleporting in, next to a psykers scout squad with 3+ cover or outflanking Vets with Nuncio Voxes so he doesn't scatter, bringing a body guard of 2+/3++ 2 wound Terminators who have a Praetor and a Primus Medicae who can get eternal warrior and feel no pain. Then he starts throwing out D novas. And then he can teleport out too.

What in 30k answers that? Our answer was three 2500 point armies. We lost. Magnus killed a Glaive, Spartan, two Land Raiders, Sicaran, five Rhinos and dozens of infantry. We never even wounded him, and never even killed all his body guard.

Russ and Sigismund charged Magnus and Cataphract Sekhmet. We brought Templar Bretheren, Wolf Terminators, three Wolf Characters and Ultramarine Suzerin.

We. Still. Lost. Completely.

Thousand Sons can be built to be not as crazy, but the player has to tailor their list to not be stupid powerful. The list can be easily built to be nearly unkillable. Add in Magnus and it pretty much is.

Oh and you can take Magnus as the HQ in GotCK. Because why not.

For the record I still feel bad about that.

There is no question that power creep exists in HH, anyone who says otherwise is on denial. It's been out there since like the third book.

Is it anywhere near as bad as it was in 40k? Not at all, but it's still present.

The power creep existed in the first book.
Sounds illogical? a bit. but even with just the first book, not all armies are equal.


As for TS, its more that magnus is outright broken than the TS creeping too high. sure they are in the higher ranking, but not outside the pre-inferno scales.
And AFAIK nothing else in inferno isn't all that bad.

OP

Yeah I made a lot of mistakes in picking two of the worst legions in the game in the Ultramarines and Emperors Children.

I did start my Fists and its silly how much better they are compared to the previous two.

I don't think the creep is as bad as it could be, but I do think Custodes, TS & SW are the top three legions right now.

I want someone who thinks that FW is good at rules writing to give me ONE (1) good reason for why Phoenix Power Spears are Str+1 AP2 on the charge and Str:U AP3 otherwise while Chogorian Power Spears are always either Str+1 AP2 or S:U AP2 depending on which the player prefers.