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 feeder wrote:
I've been gaming since the early 90s and I can count the number of bad opponents on both hands.

Sounds like some people either have very bad luck, or perhaps:

This is a really mean statement that probably has some truth to it.

I've seen some of the behaviors described here, but initially my thought was to say I'd never seen anything as bad as alleged here. The reality is that I've probably seen as bad, or worse, as some of the stories here, but I just didn't let them affect me as much.

So, I don't think it's dysfunction that causes people to attract bad experiences, but I think people that are more conflict averse, or more prone to distrust others, would both interpret behaviors as worse, and feel more offended by the actions, than people that are more comfortable with conflict.

Unless there is serious money on the table (which has been once in my life), I'm pretty comfortable letting people that are hell bent on cheating win. I'll ask questions, I'll call over a TO, and I'll make it clear when I don't believe somebody, but in the end, if somebody wants to win a game of 40k bad enough to cheat, that's their problem, not mine. My only caveat is that I will speak to the TO about my experience, and if I see the same person at another event run by that TO, I'll remind them of the prior game, and say that if we're drawn to play each other, I'll simply forfeit the round and take a long lunch. that usually leads to some jiggering of tables so I don't waste 2.5 hours of my life.

 oni wrote:
I'll chime in here and say that all of my Warhammer 40,000 tournament experiences have been really poor.

I've played in several and even just spectated several and aside from the eye candy, I don't have many good things to say about them.

I've been cheated against, witnessed cheating against others. Overheard arguments about such trivial things that the game experience was completely ruined. I've seen teams and friends come to blows and livelihoods devastated because of the tournament scene.

I find it all very distasteful and attribute the dwindling of our great hobby to it.

I have never had a narrative game that I didn't enjoy.

I will say that I have had some alright tournament experiences, but generally I get a negative impression from them. For that reason I haven't played in a tournament for many years.

 Polonius wrote:

 feeder wrote:
I've been gaming since the early 90s and I can count the number of bad opponents on both hands.

Sounds like some people either have very bad luck, or perhaps:

This is a really mean statement that probably has some truth to it.

I've seen some of the behaviors described here, but initially my thought was to say I'd never seen anything as bad as alleged here. The reality is that I've probably seen as bad, or worse, as some of the stories here, but I just didn't let them affect me as much.

So, I don't think it's dysfunction that causes people to attract bad experiences, but I think people that are more conflict averse, or more prone to distrust others, would both interpret behaviors as worse, and feel more offended by the actions, than people that are more comfortable with conflict.

Having stood there and witnessed many incidents, as I have, then that's not really true when I've just watched other people having terrible games in tournaments and pickup games - even though I may not be a participant myself. See it often enough and you form an opinion.

I've been gaming since the late 80s and have never really had a bad opponent - but I approach a game as just a game. However, I've seen an awful lot of "incidents" over the years.

 Polonius wrote:

This is a really mean statement that probably has some truth to it.

I've seen some of the behaviors described here, but initially my thought was to say I'd never seen anything as bad as alleged here. The reality is that I've probably seen as bad, or worse, as some of the stories here, but I just didn't let them affect me as much.

So, I don't think it's dysfunction that causes people to attract bad experiences, but I think people that are more conflict averse, or more prone to distrust others, would both interpret behaviors as worse, and feel more offended by the actions, than people that are more comfortable with conflict.

This post made me want to comment, I can be very bad sometimes when it comes to some rules, forgetting both beneficial rules or interpreting rules wrong during the heat of the game, mostly because I get so into the Battle even in Tournaments game I always make a narrative backstory for the list I create competitive so when my Highborn Prince gets trapped or I lose my entire flank or I overrun the opponent I often need someone to keep track so I don't make mistakes. But I'm aware of this flaw and when People correct me I always listen and Grateful for corrections and if really disagree because it doesn't sound right then I check the rulebook or confer Third party spectator or TO and sure it sucks to lose a game but just as equally it is awesome in hindsight it is to see your strategy fail so you learn from it and had a great friendly game With someone you otherwise probably never would have met. So if you meet someone for the first time and they are not a douchebag when you correct them when they mistakes and apologize for it then don't take it as them cheating maybe they are just less memorable of the rules or got ADHD or something. Worst case scenario in a disagreement without a referee then we do dice throw to decide the outcome of a rule. Had 4 losses in a row against a Ogre Khans player before I finally understood how to use their strenght against them and build a list that would work With enough synergy. And that's what competitive play does for me, it makes me play better, thinking about scenarious and making strategies and tactics for situations and lists. It makes the hobby greater, creates a Whole deep metagame to discuss.

I have encountered cheaters, freaks and horrible players that are adult but acts like spoiled children, but to be honest I find them just as disgusting as those claiming competitive table top is just for People who have something to prove, which makes me think of the quote "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?". I have never met anyone who had something to prove by playing With table top, not even the horrible ones they are just horrible persons if they flip out for losing or get angry during a game. Just like you see on youtube People screaming during DOTA or LOL. It's just about having a good time in a gaming setting that incorporates entertainment we only would get through video games today. It's fun to do nerdy stuff outside the video game medium, its why we still do pen and paper roleplaying games instead of just playing WoW.

licclerich wrote:
I have gamed since 1986 and did my first (star realms) comp 2 years ago, the second time someone was cheating, so I didn't bother again.
In the same store I did my first STAW game, I knew it was going to be a waste of time and money but stupid me I done it anyway.
The organiser was playing me in the second game and I was about to win so he said lets get a third game in.
He immediately packed up and declared himself winner of the game and that was it...but later made himself look better by saying it was a draw.
Bummer

Whatever works for you. Some people like competitions extensively, some do them occasionally, some don't at all.
I often found competitions to be more competitive (sorry for the pun) but they would allow me the opportunity to play against different armies and players then I wouldn't normally play. Plus it was always a nice goal to finish working on an army for.

As for "cheating" O reserve that argument to actual cheating (dice, while I'm not looking etc). in my view, rules arguments etc. aren't cheating, they are just part of the imperfect system. As long as we have a judge if there's a problem then its generally ok.

Alternatively, maybe I'm the guy cheating...hehehehe

I want to back up Polonius' response to this. I've played a number of tournaments over the past 15 or so years, and found that once I stopped worrying so much about placing, I just had a good time. When I worried too much about how I would do, I had a worse time and generally performed worse. I'm there to play new people and new armies, and to challenge myself. I've seen egregious cheating and let it slide, because it wasn't worth the argument or the loss of time.

In one game (5th Ed) I watched a dude roll difficult terrain for an assault unit and get a 1 and a 2 (this was a team game). I focused on something else for a moment, and I when I looked back, I watched him finish changing the roll to a 5 and a six. The fact that he felt he needed to change both dice, not just one, cracked me up, and I just quietly mentioned it to my teammate, who also let it slide.

Tournaments aren't for everyone, but for some of us, the little things just don't sour the game. I've also found that bigger tournaments are more fun (Adepticon is a great tournament environment, and I've heard similar things for the LVO, the NOVA open, Bay Area Open, and other GTs) and the better players don't pull shenanigans like that. I think it all depends on why you're in the tournament in the first place.

I have to agree.. I've had a great time at Adpeticon with opponents you want to take home because your local scene is full of people that have to win at all cost or worse.
The sad thing is when it is a group of locals that have "house rules" or the cause of the toxic environment. That forces the stores to get involved in a very difficult situation.

But tournaments will always bring the worse in people if there is good prizes.. I don't mind losing, because I don't get very many games in any given year plus
my dice hate me.. so when I see questionable things.. I think.. is your life is that bad that winning a game is the only thing that will make it better??...

In the handful of tournaments I've been to so far, I've had more bad experiences than good. Everything from opponents who were unpleasant to play against to outright cheating.

Interestingly, it's most been Games Workshop tournaments that's been problematic. Other games don't seem to have those issues. At least not in my experience...

Often wondered why that is. Is the the vague rules? The excessive randomness? Or just coincidence...?