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BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine the public knows they are the Emperor's sons, where his great generals during the crusade, and sired the Adeptus Astartes. the only real SECRET about the Primarchs is that some went bad. ther's no reason to bury gulliman, dorn, sanguinis, etc. and EVERY reason to celebrate them. that said the traitor primarchs are basicly wiped from history, IIRC it's implied that the war records of the traitor primarchs was carefully transfered to the loyalists. so a planet brought into the fold by Horus, would be listed as having been brought in by Gulliman or dorn etc.

Except for the fact that if you advertise them, people will ask where they are which then will inevitably lead to people discovering Chaos.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine the public knows they are the Emperor's sons, where his great generals during the crusade, and sired the Adeptus Astartes. the only real SECRET about the Primarchs is that some went bad. ther's no reason to bury gulliman, dorn, sanguinis, etc. and EVERY reason to celebrate them. that said the traitor primarchs are basicly wiped from history, IIRC it's implied that the war records of the traitor primarchs was carefully transfered to the loyalists. so a planet brought into the fold by Horus, would be listed as having been brought in by Gulliman or dorn etc.

Except for the fact that if you advertise them, people will ask where they are which then will inevitably lead to people discovering Chaos.

Well, people are aware that Chaos exists. In a very vague and non-descript way. Its just shown as an evil, that some wicked enemies follow.

The fate of the Loyalist Primarchs isn't a secret, but its veiled in half-truths. People know that they existed, and that some of them were killed or disappeared fighting the enemies of humanity.

Gulliman's stasis field was a place of pilgrimage. People would travel for their entire lives across the whole galaxy to see him. They knew that he was mortally wounded fighting some foe and put in the stasis field to preserve his life.

The Traitor Primarchs were indeed wiped from public knowledge. Chaos Space Marines are known about in some fashion, depending on where you are and on a need to know basis. Vilified as traitors.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine the public knows they are the Emperor's sons, where his great generals during the crusade, and sired the Adeptus Astartes. the only real SECRET about the Primarchs is that some went bad. ther's no reason to bury gulliman, dorn, sanguinis, etc. and EVERY reason to celebrate them. that said the traitor primarchs are basicly wiped from history, IIRC it's implied that the war records of the traitor primarchs was carefully transfered to the loyalists. so a planet brought into the fold by Horus, would be listed as having been brought in by Gulliman or dorn etc.

Except for the fact that if you advertise them, people will ask where they are which then will inevitably lead to people discovering Chaos.

as grey templar said, Gulliman's "tomb" is a SHRINE, Sanguinis has a festival deciated to him. the important bits likely not revealed to John Q Public are that Horus was a primarch, and that chaos is a thing.

the average person is proably, taught something along the lines of "before the emperor ascended there was the great crusade. when it came to an end, the emperor's warmaster, a sister man named Horus betrayed him and attempted to seize the imperium for himself. he was stopped by the emperor, alongside his sons and greatest generals, the primarchs. however in the end sanguinis died. and the emperor ascended"

the facts that are supressed are going to be the existance of Chaos, and that Horus was a primarch.

 Exergy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 primalexile wrote:
To try and stop the resurrection of Roboute.

this, Terra could wait, a Primarch returning would be quite possiably the greatest threat to the black crusade that could happen

Would it? The ruinious powers have 6, possibly 8 primarchs on their side. Would 1 loyalist primarch really be that bad?

Most of the traitor primarchs are lazy sods (Typhus left Mortarion in disgust purely because Mortarion would rather wallow in self pity than do anything) and can't work together well at all. Most of the Priamrchs don't seem to be particularly stable or effectual leaders post-ascension either. Angron didn't really seem to have any tactics beyond "charge at them screaming" and despite assembling the largest ever force of world eaters at armageddon; was soundly defeated by the space wolves and grey knights. Lorgar has done...nothing, not even lead his legion; leaving it entirely up to the dark council. Fulgrim seems to have decided he'd rather wallow around in excess and pleasure than do anything useful given that he doesn't seem to have appeared once after paralyzing guilliman. Whether Alpharius and Omegon are even alive is questionable (and if they are, the Alpha legion has not done anything with more than sector level effects since the Horus heresy so clearly they're not up to much), so that leaves Perturabo and Magnus. Magnus is already active, and seems to be following his own agenda rather than anything Abaddon would command of him, while Perturabo is an incredibly unstable emotional wreck of a person. So none of the Daemon Primarchs are exactly reliable assets for Abaddon. Of them, only Magnus and Angron seem to even consistently care about what happens outside of the great game being played in the eye of terror; but Angron seems to be a poor military leader who post-daemonization, does little besides crash his legion into something until his legion is inevitably forced back into the warp in defeat and disarray. And as said before, Magnus seems to mostly be doing his own thing.

Aye, many of the Traitor Primarchs are simply no longer interested in mortal affairs. I wouldn't say necessarily lazy or wallowing in self-pity, though thats true in a few cases.

but largely many of them have simply moved past whats going on in the materium. They're daemons, they're part of the warp and interested in warp matters. Daemons may sometimes take direct interest in the mortal world, but the majority just use it as a fuel source for their exploits in the Warp. Trying to gain favor with their gods, one-uping their rival daemons, and the general warp politicking.

But the same could be said for the loyalist primarchs, that are still alive (except Girlyman)

I think the missing loyalists are all hanging out at Lorgar's Tea Party.

They're having a nice cup of tea and a biscuit while they wait for this entire Imperium/Horus Heresy/Long War thing to blow over.

Unfortunately for them, many chaos followers are not really interested in Long War, as Abaddon believes. At this stage they long only for the Eternal War.

GodDamUser wrote:
But the same could be said for the loyalist primarchs, that are still alive (except Girlyman)

The loyalist primarchs have an excuse in that they're actually lost and unable to return for the moment.

The traitor primarchs tend to only really have themselves to blame for their lack of activity.

Especially Lorgar. There's no great personality flaw of his holding him back nor is he expected to serve the interests of a single god (and the Chaos Gods mostly care about their conflict with each other with the materium being at best; a side concern. The status quo suits them just fine since it feeds all four of them) above his own. But instead he just sits there and meditates doing nothing useful. Not even offering guidance to his legion which is run entirely by the dark council. Maybe he's embarassed because his daemonic form makes him look like he has a sea urchin for a head or something, I dunno.



I mean, I wouldn't want to be seen in public if my daemonically ascended form was that underwhelming.

nareik wrote:
I think the missing loyalists are all hanging out at Lorgar's Tea Party.

They're having a nice cup of tea and a biscuit while they wait for this entire Imperium/Horus Heresy/Long War thing to blow over.

Unfortunately for them, many chaos followers are not really interested in Long War, as Abaddon believes. At this stage they long only for the Eternal War.

It does seem strange that Abaddon never sends overwhelming force to any one place and instead sends just enough people to get a hard-fought loss.

Magnus goes through followers like a fat-guy eats M&Ms. Lorgar completely ignores his chapter. Angron sent 50, 000 marines(Equivalent to 50 chapters) on a rampage and was stopped by 3 chapters(3000 marines.) Yes. He outnumbered them 16 to 1 and still lost. Fulgrim has his demon world he never leaves, although when he heard that Guilliman was back he pouted.

Not even kidding about that. He. Pouted. DIRECT QUOTE. Page 38 of Rise of the Primarch fulgrim "pouted in displeasure".

Every one of their great commanders suck.

Individually, they rock, though: Fabius Bile invaded a Craftworld of psykers with a handful of marines and successfully took what he needed. A Chosen wiped out Blood Angel after Blood Angel, culminating in him bisecting a Blood Angels Captain with his sword. Lufgt Huron captured Guilliman by forcing him in a situation where his choices were to ram at light speed in to a derelict ship or stand still while he got blasted. Ahriman ambushed a nascent God whose merry band included numerous people capable of seeing the future and successfully and neatly removed the powerful people from the fight(Only to let them back in where said powerful people proceeded to contemptuously banish their whole army with a wave of their hand.)

Why Chaos hasn't just walked away from Abaddon and their Primarchs, I don't know. They are way more cunning, clever and dangerous than any of their leader. Fabius Bile has stolen blood from numerous primarchs AND he has a plan to save humanity.

Fabius "Pimp Cane" Bile is by far the most qualified to be leading Chaos.

Ghorros wrote:

nareik wrote:
I think the missing loyalists are all hanging out at Lorgar's Tea Party.

They're having a nice cup of tea and a biscuit while they wait for this entire Imperium/Horus Heresy/Long War thing to blow over.

Unfortunately for them, many chaos followers are not really interested in Long War, as Abaddon believes. At this stage they long only for the Eternal War.

It does seem strange that Abaddon never sends overwhelming force to any one place and instead sends just enough people to get a hard-fought loss.

Magnus goes through followers like a fat-guy eats M&Ms. Lorgar completely ignores his chapter. Angron sent 50, 000 marines(Equivalent to 50 chapters) on a rampage and was stopped by 3 chapters(3000 marines.) Yes. He outnumbered them 16 to 1 and still lost. Fulgrim has his demon world he never leaves, although when he heard that Guilliman was back he pouted.

Not even kidding about that. He. Pouted. DIRECT QUOTE. Page 38 of Rise of the Primarch fulgrim "pouted in displeasure".

Every one of their great commanders suck.

Individually, they rock, though: Fabius Bile invaded a Craftworld of psykers with a handful of marines and successfully took what he needed. A Chosen wiped out Blood Angel after Blood Angel, culminating in him bisecting a Blood Angels Captain with his sword. Lufgt Huron captured Guilliman by forcing him in a situation where his choices were to ram at light speed in to a derelict ship or stand still while he got blasted. Ahriman ambushed a nascent God whose merry band included numerous people capable of seeing the future and successfully and neatly removed the powerful people from the fight(Only to let them back in where said powerful people proceeded to contemptuously banish their whole army with a wave of their hand.)

Why Chaos hasn't just walked away from Abaddon and their Primarchs, I don't know. They are way more cunning, clever and dangerous than any of their leader. Fabius Bile has stolen blood from numerous primarchs AND he has a plan to save humanity.

Fabius "Pimp Cane" Bile is by far the most qualified to be leading Chaos.

the CSMs have on a whole STOPPED looking to their primarchs for leadership. as for Abbaddon, he wins some and loses some, he can't deploy over whelming force to a single location because he's fighting a war not a battle and has other fronts to worry about. (it's like asking why the US didn't park all their carriers off shore of germany in WW2 and pound Germany with their carriers, I mean Abbaddon, for example, wasn't even AT Macragge so clearly it wasn't his only focus) yeah Fabius Bile has a plan, but so does EVERY two-bit chaos lord, which is why chaos is as fragmented as it is.

 Kain wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
But the same could be said for the loyalist primarchs, that are still alive (except Girlyman)

The loyalist primarchs have an excuse in that they're actually lost and unable to return for the moment.

The traitor primarchs tend to only really have themselves to blame for their lack of activity.

Especially Lorgar. There's no great personality flaw of his holding him back nor is he expected to serve the interests of a single god (and the Chaos Gods mostly care about their conflict with each other with the materium being at best; a side concern. The status quo suits them just fine since it feeds all four of them) above his own. But instead he just sits there and meditates doing nothing useful. Not even offering guidance to his legion which is run entirely by the dark council. Maybe he's embarassed because his daemonic form makes him look like he has a sea urchin for a head or something, I dunno.



I mean, I wouldn't want to be seen in public if my daemonically ascended form was that underwhelming.

Its really that he has a fabulous collection of Pope hats from before the Horus Heresy and he can no longer wear them. He just feels absolutely naked if he isn't wearing a Miter. So he never goes out in public anymore.

Because Ultramar's neigbbourhood is the one place you can find the Imperium, Chaos, the Eldar (of all flavours), Orks, Necrons, Tyranids and Tau.


We may be setting up for an all faction campaign.

Jefffar wrote:
Because Ultramar's neigbbourhood is the one place you can find the Imperium, Chaos, the Eldar (of all flavours), Orks, Necrons, Tyranids and Tau.


We may be setting up for an all faction campaign.

that's a good point. partiuclarly given that Gulliman has annoucned the freedom granted to most of the 500 worlds "null and void" it even gives room for Imperial vs Imperial conflicts

BrianDavion wrote:

Ghorros wrote:

nareik wrote:
I think the missing loyalists are all hanging out at Lorgar's Tea Party.

They're having a nice cup of tea and a biscuit while they wait for this entire Imperium/Horus Heresy/Long War thing to blow over.

Unfortunately for them, many chaos followers are not really interested in Long War, as Abaddon believes. At this stage they long only for the Eternal War.

It does seem strange that Abaddon never sends overwhelming force to any one place and instead sends just enough people to get a hard-fought loss.

Magnus goes through followers like a fat-guy eats M&Ms. Lorgar completely ignores his chapter. Angron sent 50, 000 marines(Equivalent to 50 chapters) on a rampage and was stopped by 3 chapters(3000 marines.) Yes. He outnumbered them 16 to 1 and still lost. Fulgrim has his demon world he never leaves, although when he heard that Guilliman was back he pouted.

Not even kidding about that. He. Pouted. DIRECT QUOTE. Page 38 of Rise of the Primarch fulgrim "pouted in displeasure".

Every one of their great commanders suck.

Individually, they rock, though: Fabius Bile invaded a Craftworld of psykers with a handful of marines and successfully took what he needed. A Chosen wiped out Blood Angel after Blood Angel, culminating in him bisecting a Blood Angels Captain with his sword. Lufgt Huron captured Guilliman by forcing him in a situation where his choices were to ram at light speed in to a derelict ship or stand still while he got blasted. Ahriman ambushed a nascent God whose merry band included numerous people capable of seeing the future and successfully and neatly removed the powerful people from the fight(Only to let them back in where said powerful people proceeded to contemptuously banish their whole army with a wave of their hand.)

Why Chaos hasn't just walked away from Abaddon and their Primarchs, I don't know. They are way more cunning, clever and dangerous than any of their leader. Fabius Bile has stolen blood from numerous primarchs AND he has a plan to save humanity.

Fabius "Pimp Cane" Bile is by far the most qualified to be leading Chaos.

the CSMs have on a whole STOPPED looking to their primarchs for leadership. as for Abbaddon, he wins some and loses some, he can't deploy over whelming force to a single location because he's fighting a war not a battle and has other fronts to worry about. (it's like asking why the US didn't park all their carriers off shore of germany in WW2 and pound Germany with their carriers, I mean Abbaddon, for example, wasn't even AT Macragge so clearly it wasn't his only focus) yeah Fabius Bile has a plan, but so does EVERY two-bit chaos lord, which is why chaos is as fragmented as it is.

Yes, previous to the fall of Cadia Abaddon could only squeeze through strike forces into real space, even then it was a laborious process of years of research and rituals to create or find the viable routes that would briefly emerge.

Cadia's Fall should be an opportunity for Abaddon to turn things on their head now he has wider access to the Galaxy. I wonder if now he isn't limited to narrow warzones whether he will overstretch himself?

nareik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Ghorros wrote:

nareik wrote:
I think the missing loyalists are all hanging out at Lorgar's Tea Party.

They're having a nice cup of tea and a biscuit while they wait for this entire Imperium/Horus Heresy/Long War thing to blow over.

Unfortunately for them, many chaos followers are not really interested in Long War, as Abaddon believes. At this stage they long only for the Eternal War.

It does seem strange that Abaddon never sends overwhelming force to any one place and instead sends just enough people to get a hard-fought loss.

Magnus goes through followers like a fat-guy eats M&Ms. Lorgar completely ignores his chapter. Angron sent 50, 000 marines(Equivalent to 50 chapters) on a rampage and was stopped by 3 chapters(3000 marines.) Yes. He outnumbered them 16 to 1 and still lost. Fulgrim has his demon world he never leaves, although when he heard that Guilliman was back he pouted.

Not even kidding about that. He. Pouted. DIRECT QUOTE. Page 38 of Rise of the Primarch fulgrim "pouted in displeasure".

Every one of their great commanders suck.

Individually, they rock, though: Fabius Bile invaded a Craftworld of psykers with a handful of marines and successfully took what he needed. A Chosen wiped out Blood Angel after Blood Angel, culminating in him bisecting a Blood Angels Captain with his sword. Lufgt Huron captured Guilliman by forcing him in a situation where his choices were to ram at light speed in to a derelict ship or stand still while he got blasted. Ahriman ambushed a nascent God whose merry band included numerous people capable of seeing the future and successfully and neatly removed the powerful people from the fight(Only to let them back in where said powerful people proceeded to contemptuously banish their whole army with a wave of their hand.)

Why Chaos hasn't just walked away from Abaddon and their Primarchs, I don't know. They are way more cunning, clever and dangerous than any of their leader. Fabius Bile has stolen blood from numerous primarchs AND he has a plan to save humanity.

Fabius "Pimp Cane" Bile is by far the most qualified to be leading Chaos.

the CSMs have on a whole STOPPED looking to their primarchs for leadership. as for Abbaddon, he wins some and loses some, he can't deploy over whelming force to a single location because he's fighting a war not a battle and has other fronts to worry about. (it's like asking why the US didn't park all their carriers off shore of germany in WW2 and pound Germany with their carriers, I mean Abbaddon, for example, wasn't even AT Macragge so clearly it wasn't his only focus) yeah Fabius Bile has a plan, but so does EVERY two-bit chaos lord, which is why chaos is as fragmented as it is.

Yes, previous to the fall of Cadia Abaddon could only squeeze through strike forces into real space, even then it was a laborious process of years of research and rituals to create or find the viable routes that would briefly emerge.

Cadia's Fall should be an opportunity for Abaddon to turn things on their head now he has wider access to the Galaxy. I wonder if now he isn't limited to narrow warzones whether he will overstretch himself?

could be, one thing worth noting is we're seeing more warp activity / warp storms then is normal now too.

BrianDavion wrote:

Ghorros wrote:

nareik wrote:
I think the missing loyalists are all hanging out at Lorgar's Tea Party.

They're having a nice cup of tea and a biscuit while they wait for this entire Imperium/Horus Heresy/Long War thing to blow over.

Unfortunately for them, many chaos followers are not really interested in Long War, as Abaddon believes. At this stage they long only for the Eternal War.

It does seem strange that Abaddon never sends overwhelming force to any one place and instead sends just enough people to get a hard-fought loss.

Magnus goes through followers like a fat-guy eats M&Ms. Lorgar completely ignores his chapter. Angron sent 50, 000 marines(Equivalent to 50 chapters) on a rampage and was stopped by 3 chapters(3000 marines.) Yes. He outnumbered them 16 to 1 and still lost. Fulgrim has his demon world he never leaves, although when he heard that Guilliman was back he pouted.

Not even kidding about that. He. Pouted. DIRECT QUOTE. Page 38 of Rise of the Primarch fulgrim "pouted in displeasure".

Every one of their great commanders suck.

Individually, they rock, though: Fabius Bile invaded a Craftworld of psykers with a handful of marines and successfully took what he needed. A Chosen wiped out Blood Angel after Blood Angel, culminating in him bisecting a Blood Angels Captain with his sword. Lufgt Huron captured Guilliman by forcing him in a situation where his choices were to ram at light speed in to a derelict ship or stand still while he got blasted. Ahriman ambushed a nascent God whose merry band included numerous people capable of seeing the future and successfully and neatly removed the powerful people from the fight(Only to let them back in where said powerful people proceeded to contemptuously banish their whole army with a wave of their hand.)

Why Chaos hasn't just walked away from Abaddon and their Primarchs, I don't know. They are way more cunning, clever and dangerous than any of their leader. Fabius Bile has stolen blood from numerous primarchs AND he has a plan to save humanity.

Fabius "Pimp Cane" Bile is by far the most qualified to be leading Chaos.

the CSMs have on a whole STOPPED looking to their primarchs for leadership. as for Abbaddon, he wins some and loses some, he can't deploy over whelming force to a single location because he's fighting a war not a battle and has other fronts to worry about. (it's like asking why the US didn't park all their carriers off shore of germany in WW2 and pound Germany with their carriers, I mean Abbaddon, for example, wasn't even AT Macragge so clearly it wasn't his only focus) yeah Fabius Bile has a plan, but so does EVERY two-bit chaos lord, which is why chaos is as fragmented as it is.

Actually, it's more like asking why D-Day consisted only of 56 guys with rifles and a couple of tanks.

Oh, wait. That didn't happen, because the allied commanders weren't stupid and knew when to invest troops in to fights that needed to be won. Unlike Abaddon, who didn't deign either a planetary war that would have hastened his assault on Terra by years or the rise of a Primarch to be important enough to invest more than the bare minimum.

Ghorros wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Ghorros wrote:

nareik wrote:
I think the missing loyalists are all hanging out at Lorgar's Tea Party.

They're having a nice cup of tea and a biscuit while they wait for this entire Imperium/Horus Heresy/Long War thing to blow over.

Unfortunately for them, many chaos followers are not really interested in Long War, as Abaddon believes. At this stage they long only for the Eternal War.

It does seem strange that Abaddon never sends overwhelming force to any one place and instead sends just enough people to get a hard-fought loss.

Magnus goes through followers like a fat-guy eats M&Ms. Lorgar completely ignores his chapter. Angron sent 50, 000 marines(Equivalent to 50 chapters) on a rampage and was stopped by 3 chapters(3000 marines.) Yes. He outnumbered them 16 to 1 and still lost. Fulgrim has his demon world he never leaves, although when he heard that Guilliman was back he pouted.

Not even kidding about that. He. Pouted. DIRECT QUOTE. Page 38 of Rise of the Primarch fulgrim "pouted in displeasure".

Every one of their great commanders suck.

Individually, they rock, though: Fabius Bile invaded a Craftworld of psykers with a handful of marines and successfully took what he needed. A Chosen wiped out Blood Angel after Blood Angel, culminating in him bisecting a Blood Angels Captain with his sword. Lufgt Huron captured Guilliman by forcing him in a situation where his choices were to ram at light speed in to a derelict ship or stand still while he got blasted. Ahriman ambushed a nascent God whose merry band included numerous people capable of seeing the future and successfully and neatly removed the powerful people from the fight(Only to let them back in where said powerful people proceeded to contemptuously banish their whole army with a wave of their hand.)

Why Chaos hasn't just walked away from Abaddon and their Primarchs, I don't know. They are way more cunning, clever and dangerous than any of their leader. Fabius Bile has stolen blood from numerous primarchs AND he has a plan to save humanity.

Fabius "Pimp Cane" Bile is by far the most qualified to be leading Chaos.

the CSMs have on a whole STOPPED looking to their primarchs for leadership. as for Abbaddon, he wins some and loses some, he can't deploy over whelming force to a single location because he's fighting a war not a battle and has other fronts to worry about. (it's like asking why the US didn't park all their carriers off shore of germany in WW2 and pound Germany with their carriers, I mean Abbaddon, for example, wasn't even AT Macragge so clearly it wasn't his only focus) yeah Fabius Bile has a plan, but so does EVERY two-bit chaos lord, which is why chaos is as fragmented as it is.

Actually, it's more like asking why D-Day consisted only of 56 guys with rifles and a couple of tanks.

Oh, wait. That didn't happen, because the allied commanders weren't stupid and knew when to invest troops in to fights that needed to be won. Unlike Abaddon, who didn't deign either a planetary war that would have hastened his assault on Terra by years or the rise of a Primarch to be important enough to invest more than the bare minimum.

except he did. he came within an inch (quite literally) of WINNING, had yrvine and cawl acted a few seconds slower and the black legion would have won. what more do you expect? the entire book to simply read "ABBADDON BROKE OUT OF THE EYE AND WITH SUPERIOR NUMBERS CONQURERED MACRAGGE THE END"? that'd make the GK 5th edition codex look like shakespear.

If your plan can be stopped due to two people acting a couple of seconds faster than expected then it is a really bad plan. In fact any plan which can be undone by two people is a really bad plan.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
If your plan can be stopped due to two people acting a couple of seconds faster than expected then it is a really bad plan. In fact any plan which can be undone by two people is a really bad plan.

right because chaos knew EXACTLY how Gulliman was returning. ohh wait they didn't. the entire plan was likely to destroy Macragge and Gulliman BEFORE the crusade even arrived. and they very VERY nearly did. one thing to consider is Abbaddon wasn't even PRESENT for this battle. which suggests eaither the main force of the black Legion may have been out of position (or perhaps even in irony of irony's delayed by the warp) or had more important things to do.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
If your plan can be stopped due to two people acting a couple of seconds faster than expected then it is a really bad plan. In fact any plan which can be undone by two people is a really bad plan.

I don't know of any plan no matter how brilliant can survive plot armor and writer's prerogative. Let's face it, the Black Legion could have shown up the day before, a week before or even a month later and the effect would be the same.

Hans Gruber could try everything and anything to kill John McClane, but we both know it ain't going to happen.

nareik wrote:


Cadia's Fall should be an opportunity for Abaddon to turn things on their head now he has wider access to the Galaxy. I wonder if now he isn't limited to narrow warzones whether he will overstretch himself?

Interesting thought.

Codex Space Marines and all current imperial forces function under the doctrine of needed support. They are formed up into units that need combined arms actions to succeed and they have for 10,000 years been defending a galaxy that is at relative peace with that support all around them.

Chaos Space Marines, and particularly the older commanders on the other hand have experience fighting long campaigns deep into hostile territory. That is how the great crusade went, pushing out from a central base, spearheading into enemy territory with auxilia forces mopping up behind.

The IoM is well suited to fighitng a defensive war they are winning, but when things start to go back they will really collapse, as forces that need combined arms to win end up getting fragmented and defeated piecemeal.
Chaos forces are well suited to fighting alone and far from support. Perhaps the very situation they are in with the gate of Cadia broken.

I do like this Abaddon is a terrible commander because he didnt win one of the main fights in the plot of the story

In terms of demonstrated tactical and operational command ability Abaddon has so far shown to be generally mediocre at best. even with GW's retcons to try and heal a reputation that the fandom has rather mercilessly savaged. His strategic and grand strategic command ability is what's mostly been affected by GW's rather hamfisted attempts to make Abaddon be taken more seriously a fandom heavily inclined to take the piss out of him. As a Grand Strategist even with the retcons/clarifications Abaddon still isn't the best mind in the setting (to be 100% fair he has to compete with multiple gods for that title) but he's got something resembling a viable grand strategy. However I have a sneaking suspicion that GW has largely given up on trying to fight the Fandom perception of Abaddon and might be setting him up to be killed off and replaced by someone who isn't saddled with nearly two decades worth of memes that paint him as at best a saturday morning cartoon villain and at worst an ineffectual loser with daddy issues. Also someone who doesn't look as stupid as Abaddon because no matter how over the top evil they try to make his model; the topknot will always make him look like a dork and having a bare exposed head in his terminator armor makes his head look ridiculously tiny. Like, the thing that Archaon in WHFB/AoS always had over Abaddon was that Archaon looked cool, especially with his badass helmet and cape; he genuinely looked like an evil overlord, while Abaddon looks less like an evil overlord and more like a brute type character who serves as the muscle of the actual evil overlord.

GW certainly has been pushing Lufgt Huron as a highly competent badass as of late that's for sure, but given GW's unpredictability with its fluff directions since 2012 or so, they're just as likely to replace him with someone new who they can make some big ass and expensive character model for from scratch.

@Kain

I think GW missed a big opportunity with Roboute Guilliman's return and the Battle of Macragge. It would be a more dramatic story if Guilliman and the Ultramarines lost Macragge and fled from the Black Legion. One, it would show indeed the Ultramarines are no longer the perfect Mary Sues that they constantly get labeled as such losing their very seat of power. Two, it would still prove that Abbadon is still very much a threat to the galaxy performing a feat no other had done before. Three, it could create tension as now Abbadon controls the Library of Ptolemy but whatever secret Guilliman has hidden there is unknown of the importance to Chaos. Thus Guilliman must decide what is more important: this secret, the Ultramarines and Ultramar, or the Imperium of Man itself. Finally, it actually doesn't change anything on the gaming table save more thematic fights between the Ultramarines and Black Legion (Poster boy vs. Poster boy). So Abbadon controls Macragge? It can (and probably will) be re-captured later unless the Chaos corruption is to bad. Welcome to the Grimdark Ultramarines. At least you have your Primarch.

As for changing out Abbadon for a new Warmaster, I don't think it is that easy. Abbadon has been the Warmaster this entire time despite What it's Like. Which I think most players forget just how tough impossible leading Chaos is. Honestly, Lufgt Huron just sounds like an upstart and the flavor de jour that via plot armor has become the second most powerful Chaos Space Marine. Nothing of. "I'm the Dread Pirate Roberts" sounds like he would be capable of leading anything close to one of Abbadon's Black Crusades. Plus, to maintain status quo GW would need to insert a new leader for the Black Legion as Abbadon is only reason it even exists.

Even if it is not Huron, any new Chaos Warmaster is going to seem weaker than Abbadon as they always going to come off as a dark horse upstart basically inserted into the lore specifically to make Chaos seem scarier. As in, "Abbadon has tried for 10,000 years and 13 carefully crafted plots to take over the galaxy. What do you think you are going to accomplish before giant bugs eat us all or soulless robots destroy us all?" Well outside Horus himself returning, but he is #1 of people in the 40K universe that should not to come back from the dead in my opinion.

I wouldn't have any issue with Abbadon losing that top knot though. I am sure it was as cool as flannel shirts and grunge music when it was designed, but a couple of decades later it hasn't aged well. At the same time, it is part of Abbadon's character design so maybe just tone it down some.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
@Kain

I think GW missed a big opportunity with Roboute Guilliman's return and the Battle of Macragge. It would be a more dramatic story if Guilliman and the Ultramarines lost Macragge and fled from the Black Legion. One, it would show indeed the Ultramarines are no longer the perfect Mary Sues that they constantly get labeled as such losing their very seat of power. Two, it would still prove that Abbadon is still very much a threat to the galaxy performing a feat no other had done before. Three, it could create tension as now Abbadon controls the Library of Ptolemy but whatever secret Guilliman has hidden there is unknown of the importance to Chaos. Thus Guilliman must decide what is more important: this secret, the Ultramarines and Ultramar, or the Imperium of Man itself. Finally, it actually doesn't change anything on the gaming table save more thematic fights between the Ultramarines and Black Legion (Poster boy vs. Poster boy). So Abbadon controls Macragge? It can (and probably will) be re-captured later unless the Chaos corruption is to bad. Welcome to the Grimdark Ultramarines. At least you have your Primarch.

As for changing out Abbadon for a new Warmaster, I don't think it is that easy. Abbadon has been the Warmaster this entire time despite What it's Like. Which I think most players forget just how tough impossible leading Chaos is. Honestly, Lufgt Huron just sounds like an upstart and the flavor de jour that via plot armor has become the second most powerful Chaos Space Marine. Nothing of. "I'm the Dread Pirate Roberts" sounds like he would be capable of leading anything close to one of Abbadon's Black Crusades. Plus, to maintain status quo GW would need to insert a new leader for the Black Legion as Abbadon is only reason it even exists.

Even if it is not Huron, any new Chaos Warmaster is going to seem weaker than Abbadon as they always going to come off as a dark horse upstart basically inserted into the lore specifically to make Chaos seem scarier. As in, "Abbadon has tried for 10,000 years and 13 carefully crafted plots to take over the galaxy. What do you think you are going to accomplish before giant bugs eat us all or soulless robots destroy us all?" Well outside Horus himself returning, but he is #1 of people in the 40K universe that should not to come back from the dead in my opinion.

I wouldn't have any issue with Abbadon losing that top knot though. I am sure it was as cool as flannel shirts and grunge music when it was designed, but a couple of decades later it hasn't aged well. At the same time, it is part of Abbadon's character design so maybe just tone it down some.

I'm sorry but ifg Abbaddon conquered Macragge, and personally defeated Abbaddon in hand to hand combat, people would STILL claim the Ul;tramarines are somehow mary sues (yeah they're the most vanilla chapter out there! they're m ary sue! really just ignore the space wolves who constantly flip off every IoM authority and get no concequences whatsoever. etc) and that abbaddon is "obviously a failure cause he didn't kill Gulliman" and I bear out this with proof. Abbaddon DESTROYS Cadia, is flooding real space with warp storms as a result, and come a hair away from wiping out the ultramarines in an action he didn't even command personally, and he's still "dur the armless failure" every win he has people poo poo because it's not a total absolute win that leads to him conquering the galaxy or something.

Only part of the crusade is headed in that direction. The impression that I got from the book is that a large portion of the galaxy has descended into civil war (as chaos cults emerge) or has been invaded by Chaos forces. They just focused on Ultramar in the book because the story focused on Gulliman's return.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
@Kain

I think GW missed a big opportunity with Roboute Guilliman's return and the Battle of Macragge. It would be a more dramatic story if Guilliman and the Ultramarines lost Macragge and fled from the Black Legion. One, it would show indeed the Ultramarines are no longer the perfect Mary Sues that they constantly get labeled as such losing their very seat of power. Two, it would still prove that Abbadon is still very much a threat to the galaxy performing a feat no other had done before. Three, it could create tension as now Abbadon controls the Library of Ptolemy but whatever secret Guilliman has hidden there is unknown of the importance to Chaos. Thus Guilliman must decide what is more important: this secret, the Ultramarines and Ultramar, or the Imperium of Man itself. Finally, it actually doesn't change anything on the gaming table save more thematic fights between the Ultramarines and Black Legion (Poster boy vs. Poster boy). So Abbadon controls Macragge? It can (and probably will) be re-captured later unless the Chaos corruption is to bad. Welcome to the Grimdark Ultramarines. At least you have your Primarch.

As for changing out Abbadon for a new Warmaster, I don't think it is that easy. Abbadon has been the Warmaster this entire time despite What it's Like. Which I think most players forget just how tough impossible leading Chaos is. Honestly, Lufgt Huron just sounds like an upstart and the flavor de jour that via plot armor has become the second most powerful Chaos Space Marine. Nothing of. "I'm the Dread Pirate Roberts" sounds like he would be capable of leading anything close to one of Abbadon's Black Crusades. Plus, to maintain status quo GW would need to insert a new leader for the Black Legion as Abbadon is only reason it even exists.

Even if it is not Huron, any new Chaos Warmaster is going to seem weaker than Abbadon as they always going to come off as a dark horse upstart basically inserted into the lore specifically to make Chaos seem scarier. As in, "Abbadon has tried for 10,000 years and 13 carefully crafted plots to take over the galaxy. What do you think you are going to accomplish before giant bugs eat us all or soulless robots destroy us all?" Well outside Horus himself returning, but he is #1 of people in the 40K universe that should not to come back from the dead in my opinion.

I wouldn't have any issue with Abbadon losing that top knot though. I am sure it was as cool as flannel shirts and grunge music when it was designed, but a couple of decades later it hasn't aged well. At the same time, it is part of Abbadon's character design so maybe just tone it down some.

I'm sorry but ifg Abbaddon conquered Macragge, and personally defeated Abbaddon in hand to hand combat, people would STILL claim the Ul;tramarines are somehow mary sues (yeah they're the most vanilla chapter out there! they're m ary sue! really just ignore the space wolves who constantly flip off every IoM authority and get no concequences whatsoever. etc) and that abbaddon is "obviously a failure cause he didn't kill Gulliman" and I bear out this with proof. Abbaddon DESTROYS Cadia, is flooding real space with warp storms as a result, and come a hair away from wiping out the ultramarines in an action he didn't even command personally, and he's still "dur the armless failure" every win he has people poo poo because it's not a total absolute win that leads to him conquering the galaxy or something.

Abaddon personally defeating Abaddon in hand to hand combat sounds like it'd need some Doctor Who esque time shenanigans to happen and would end in much the same way as the lost WAAAGH anecdote. The 13th black crusade cancels itself and the traitor legions go back home scratching their heads in confusion.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
@Kain

I think GW missed a big opportunity with Roboute Guilliman's return and the Battle of Macragge. It would be a more dramatic story if Guilliman and the Ultramarines lost Macragge and fled from the Black Legion. One, it would show indeed the Ultramarines are no longer the perfect Mary Sues that they constantly get labeled as such losing their very seat of power. Two, it would still prove that Abbadon is still very much a threat to the galaxy performing a feat no other had done before. Three, it could create tension as now Abbadon controls the Library of Ptolemy but whatever secret Guilliman has hidden there is unknown of the importance to Chaos. Thus Guilliman must decide what is more important: this secret, the Ultramarines and Ultramar, or the Imperium of Man itself. Finally, it actually doesn't change anything on the gaming table save more thematic fights between the Ultramarines and Black Legion (Poster boy vs. Poster boy). So Abbadon controls Macragge? It can (and probably will) be re-captured later unless the Chaos corruption is to bad. Welcome to the Grimdark Ultramarines. At least you have your Primarch.

As for changing out Abbadon for a new Warmaster, I don't think it is that easy. Abbadon has been the Warmaster this entire time despite What it's Like. Which I think most players forget just how tough impossible leading Chaos is. Honestly, Lufgt Huron just sounds like an upstart and the flavor de jour that via plot armor has become the second most powerful Chaos Space Marine. Nothing of. "I'm the Dread Pirate Roberts" sounds like he would be capable of leading anything close to one of Abbadon's Black Crusades. Plus, to maintain status quo GW would need to insert a new leader for the Black Legion as Abbadon is only reason it even exists.

Even if it is not Huron, any new Chaos Warmaster is going to seem weaker than Abbadon as they always going to come off as a dark horse upstart basically inserted into the lore specifically to make Chaos seem scarier. As in, "Abbadon has tried for 10,000 years and 13 carefully crafted plots to take over the galaxy. What do you think you are going to accomplish before giant bugs eat us all or soulless robots destroy us all?" Well outside Horus himself returning, but he is #1 of people in the 40K universe that should not to come back from the dead in my opinion.

I wouldn't have any issue with Abbadon losing that top knot though. I am sure it was as cool as flannel shirts and grunge music when it was designed, but a couple of decades later it hasn't aged well. At the same time, it is part of Abbadon's character design so maybe just tone it down some.

A bittersweet 'Empire Strikes Back' moment where the forces of good suffer an unexpected loss would really make the story better. Everyone knew Cadia was going to fall, and the writing makes it seem like Chaos was limited to a Phyric victory and then somehow ran off to Macragge for no reason. It's poorly written.

 Kain wrote:
But instead he just sits there and meditates doing nothing useful.

Keep in mind that Lorgar genuinely sought spiritual transcendence. Ascension to daemonhood opened up a world as removed from our mortal concerns as we are from the concerns of bacteria. If anything, obsessing over whatever is going on in some tiny corner of the Materium when you exist in such a vaster plane of understanding and experience is ... kind of a neurotic hang-up. I figured the daemons who get involved do it as a kind of quirky hobby. For the ascended Primarchs who keep revisiting this same old battle, it's kind of like those people who never get over highschool. I guess that is why it always made sense to me that Angron was the most active traitor Primarch.

 Exergy wrote:
A bittersweet 'Empire Strikes Back' moment where the forces of good suffer an unexpected loss would really make the story better. Everyone knew Cadia was going to fall, and the writing makes it seem like Chaos was limited to a Phyric victory and then somehow ran off to Macragge for no reason. It's poorly written.

Have you read, like, anything 40k related from the past ten or so years? It's been nothing but Pyrrhic victories and unexpected loses for the forces of good (including the Gathering storm). They're due for an outright win, not more of the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
As for changing out Abbadon for a new Warmaster, I don't think it is that easy. Abbadon has been the Warmaster this entire time despite What it's Like. Which I think most players forget just how tough impossible leading Chaos is. Honestly, Lufgt Huron just sounds like an upstart and the flavor de jour that via plot armor has become the second most powerful Chaos Space Marine. Nothing of. "I'm the Dread Pirate Roberts" sounds like he would be capable of leading anything close to one of Abbadon's Black Crusades. Plus, to maintain status quo GW would need to insert a new leader for the Black Legion as Abbadon is only reason it even exists.

I don't think I've ever quite understood everyone's love for What it's Like, since as portrayed there chaos would never be able to assemble one black crusade, let alone 13. I play imperial, so I get the whole "the entire narrative and universe conspires to make any coordinated action by my team an enormous joke" thing that it's going for, what I don't get is why people go "Yea, this is awesome".

Or why, after reading Master of Mankind, why anyone cares to any extent what ADB says.