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The ban on the Armored Battle group is weird. It says the army list can not be played in an ITC event, but after it list Armored Battle Group it says it has to use the point cost printed in the IA1 2nd edition. Can we get a clarification on this?

Are Forgeworld land raiders allowed? The rules linked on the forgeworld page don't include them.

Banning and neutering psychic powers is bad. Psychic powers have some hard counters, in addition to them being denied. Granted mobility psychic powers are tougher to deny, but it shouldn't warrant a ban. Maybe space marines need the extra mobility? Compared to all the other mobility shenanigans other armies already have built-in? Lol

If someone wants to spend an extra 300-500 points on a conclave to get a 1st turn charge on Gulliman, so be it. That has its counters too. If a tourney is worried about terrain resetting, penalize a player points for not resetting the terrain themselves. A quick snapshot of the table arrangement can go a long way.

 Marmatag wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
But back to the original point. If you're weakening or removing powers for the purposes of game balance, you're doing so to maintain the status quo of the current balance. That's all.

On the one hand you can't complain about balance, while simultaneously supporting actions that keep things the way they are.

Additionally, things like this prevent the meta from evolving. Maybe anti-psyker armies would get more play if this was allowed.

In the future i will try to vote or participate in the discussion. The meta needs to evolve, and the ITC shouldn't get in the way of that. Or, they should enact some changes to rebalance the game. Where are the ITC vehicle rules? Where are the limitations to "free stuff"? Where are the changes to D-weaponry? Where are the changes to MCs? To Grav?

It's a bit disengenuous to claim that doing nothing fixing the meta or the need to change everything in order to rebalance the game. The idea of the ITC is not about changing the entire game to rebalance it. There is no way to balance every army. That should be crystal clear by now to anyone playing this game. It's to make itc organized events fun. Shifting worldscape was just unusable in the current large organized events, the 2++ rerollable rule has been an itc staple to combat save stacking unkillable deathstar bs, and electro displacement being used to circumvent basic charge rules to create even more obtrusive deathstars is a clear example of this unfun annoyance and does nothing to change the meta. You literally just take a unit that's within charge range that usually and normally can't even charge and replace it with the most annoying unkillable unit that normally can't get within charge range and allow it to charge. I'm sure there will be plenty of events to allow electrodisplacement and we will see how that goes. Just like there was events that allowed people to use 5-6 wraithknight/warpspam armies that continue to completely overrun those events.

If the idea of the ITC is not to rebalance the game they shouldn't be making decisions based on balance. They should make rulings based on clarity where appropriate.

Altering or negating powers is, in fact, rebalancing of the game.

If you're going to balance the game then do it. If you're not going to balance the game, leave well enough alone and let the meta sort itself out.

You seem to have it in your mind that i'm arguing in favor of death stars. I'm not.

The meta doesn't sort itself if you do nothing it just turns to gak! You ever see the results of tournaments that don't restrict wraithknights or lord of wars to one unit? It's a complete clutter fek of wraithknight warpspider spam literally 8 of the top 10 spots.
Do you even remember the death spiral organized events were in before the itc and other tournaments started making primers to play? 40k was losing players like crazy and events were smaller and harder to find. Again your claim that we need to either do nothing or completely go about changing the entire game to reach some unobtainable goal of balance is wrong. You can change extreme outliers that make the game unfun for the majority of players and still foster competition without changin the entire game. Ffs many of the calls the itc community voted on where the common sense FAQs that games workshop made on their rule FAQs. Even though the majority of people were playing the wrong interpretations. (Such as gmc toe in cover, tau drone spam, tau combined fire detachment, 2+ fnp, warp spider jumps,etc) Again rules don't change in the itc to achieve perfect balance it's either becuase something isn't clear or something is extremely unbalanced and ruins organized events for the majority. And I'm not saying I agree with every vote I don't and sometimes people react to harsh however electrodisplacement has been extensively tested as written and it is just as bad as people have stated.

 Nyghoma wrote:
Banning and neutering psychic powers is bad. Psychic powers have some hard counters, in addition to them being denied. Granted mobility psychic powers are tougher to deny, but it shouldn't warrant a ban. Maybe space marines need the extra mobility? Compared to all the other mobility shenanigans other armies already have built-in? Lol

If someone wants to spend an extra 300-500 points on a conclave to get a 1st turn charge on Gulliman, so be it. That has its counters too. If a tourney is worried about terrain resetting, penalize a player points for not resetting the terrain themselves. A quick snapshot of the table arrangement can go a long way.

Counters like what? Taking your own psykers or allying a culexus assassin or sisters of silences? You know something that a couple factions can't feasibly do?

Also the terrain moving power is a TO's nightmare for more reasons then just "the terrain got moved". Even if you did insist on the players fixing it themselves you still have to have to go through every table to make sure they are in order. At LVO there were over 400 entries so over 200 tables. Can you guess how long it would take to go through all 200+ tables in between EVERY ROUND to make sure they are correct? Especially since you can guarantee that some players will still leave some tables screwed up. 40k tourneys already have time issues from games going past the round time limit a lot, this will only make matters way worse.

Not only that but there is another major problem which is the moving the terrain with your opponent's models on it. If models get knocked over, fall off, or fall over then you are just opening up a can of worms for arguments to happen with no actual good way for a judge to step in and resolve it.

gungo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
But back to the original point. If you're weakening or removing powers for the purposes of game balance, you're doing so to maintain the status quo of the current balance. That's all.

On the one hand you can't complain about balance, while simultaneously supporting actions that keep things the way they are.

Additionally, things like this prevent the meta from evolving. Maybe anti-psyker armies would get more play if this was allowed.

In the future i will try to vote or participate in the discussion. The meta needs to evolve, and the ITC shouldn't get in the way of that. Or, they should enact some changes to rebalance the game. Where are the ITC vehicle rules? Where are the limitations to "free stuff"? Where are the changes to D-weaponry? Where are the changes to MCs? To Grav?

It's a bit disengenuous to claim that doing nothing fixing the meta or the need to change everything in order to rebalance the game. The idea of the ITC is not about changing the entire game to rebalance it. There is no way to balance every army. That should be crystal clear by now to anyone playing this game. It's to make itc organized events fun. Shifting worldscape was just unusable in the current large organized events, the 2++ rerollable rule has been an itc staple to combat save stacking unkillable deathstar bs, and electro displacement being used to circumvent basic charge rules to create even more obtrusive deathstars is a clear example of this unfun annoyance and does nothing to change the meta. You literally just take a unit that's within charge range that usually and normally can't even charge and replace it with the most annoying unkillable unit that normally can't get within charge range and allow it to charge. I'm sure there will be plenty of events to allow electrodisplacement and we will see how that goes. Just like there was events that allowed people to use 5-6 wraithknight/warpspam armies that continue to completely overrun those events.

If the idea of the ITC is not to rebalance the game they shouldn't be making decisions based on balance. They should make rulings based on clarity where appropriate.

Altering or negating powers is, in fact, rebalancing of the game.

If you're going to balance the game then do it. If you're not going to balance the game, leave well enough alone and let the meta sort itself out.

You seem to have it in your mind that i'm arguing in favor of death stars. I'm not.

The meta doesn't sort itself if you do nothing it just turns to gak! You ever see the results of tournaments that don't restrict wraithknights or lord of wars to one unit? It's a complete clutter fek of wraithknight warpspider spam literally 8 of the top 10 spots.
Do you even remember the death spiral organized events were in before the itc and other tournaments started making primers to play? 40k was losing players like crazy and events were smaller and harder to find. Again your claim that we need to either do nothing or completely go about changing the entire game to reach some unobtainable goal of balance is wrong. You can change extreme outliers that make the game unfun for the majority of players and still foster competition without changin the entire game. Ffs many of the calls the itc community voted on where the common sense FAQs that games workshop made on their rule FAQs. Even though the majority of people were playing the wrong interpretations. (Such as gmc toe in cover, tau drone spam, tau combined fire detachment, 2+ fnp, warp spider jumps,etc) Again rules don't change in the itc to achieve perfect balance it's either becuase something isn't clear or something is extremely unbalanced and ruins organized events for the majority. And I'm not saying I agree with every vote I don't and sometimes people react to harsh however electrodisplacement has been extensively tested as written and it is just as bad as people have stated.

Agreed completely with gungo.

If you think ITC is trying to rebalance the game, that is very idealistic thinking but not at all practical. What the ITC is trying to do is to encourage the tournament side of the hobby by neutering some of the more extreme mechanisms in the game. The last thing they want is some newbie going to a tournament just to get rolf-stomped by an unkillable deathstar that is assaulting their entire army on Turn 1 or a D ranged weaponry that just one-shots another opponent's unit (i.e. Imperial Knight) without them being able to do anything about it. Before the ITC did anything, the tournament community was dying in many parts of the world. Then the ITC stepped in, made a few changes and now the 40K tournament community is thriving again. The ITC isn't interested in re-balancing every aspect of the game (that is an impossible task that even the game's creators, GW, couldn't do and they get paid to do it!). Rather, what they are trying to do is to foster a competitive community that is fun for the majority of the players.