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I won't lie, Guilliman is surprisingly good in combat. I wouldn't have thought he'd be quite so good, but he is actually rather solid.

Titanicus wrote:


Have to agree Magnus is the best primarch. He does a ton for his legion such as free to select any cult on troops can use psychic dice without peril brings am ungodly amount of pain especially with biomancy which has 5 good spells for him and the primaris guy is a beast.

Also as of current Russ is the best combat primary and he can kill horus but he doesn't buff anything +1ld isn't terrible but nothing great he does allow veterans and varagyr as troops to but lots of primarchs now do that such as Magnus horus guilliman.

Magnus doesn't ignore Pearls of the Warp, he just isn't affected by it unless he rolls three sixes, and ignores a 1 on the Pearls chart.

Magnus is good, but I don't think he could take Horus in melee. Horus has the Serpent's Scales that allow him to ignore Psychic Attacks on a 3+, or any psychic power that would affect his stats. Add Adamantium Will and he has a pretty good chance of ignoring any effect Magnus might try on Horus. So Magnus would have to rely on psychic powers that boost his own profile. Another item Magnus has is the Phantasmal Aura, making Horus hit him on a 4+ (instead of 3+) for the first round. Magnus would have to win within the first couple turns of close combat, or Horus will win. The Warmaster's Talon reduces Magnus' WS and S by -1 and is cumulative- if I was running Horus, I'd just use four of my attacks with the Talon and two of my attacks with WorldBreaker (giving Magnus a concussion) until Magnus was -4 WS/S, and then I'd shift over to WorldBreaker with four attacks and the Talon with two attacks.

This kind of combat is 100% subjective of course. Magnus, if he rolled the right powers (say, Invisibility), if he made all his Psychic Tests, if he rolled well enough... then yeah, I'd say he is the best Primarch, but that's a lot of rolling. Horus is pretty much straight up, this is what he is. If I was a loyalist player and knew I was facing Thousand Sons, I'd add in an Allied Detachment of Sisters of Silence and pretty much shut down all of the Psychic tricks the Thousand Sons have. Plus, it's never just Magnus and Horus fighting. It's Magnus and the Thousand Sons, and it's Horus and the Sons of Horus. The rest of your army matters, as well as the mission, terrain on the table, and the players themselves.

Thousand Sons are pretty cool. They were not what I was expecting. In a good way that is. I really like Magistus Amon, the Khenetai Occult Blade Cabal is niffty, and I love the Castellax-Achea! So yeah, Forge World did a great job with the Thousand Sons.

The Space Wolves though... they are kind of a disappointment with far too many contradictory rules and drawbacks. Such as most players that foot slog a Tactical Squad make 'em big (15-20 models) and attach Apothecaries. Grey Slayers- you want MSU's, to maximize wargear options, you want to run and charge and shoot- and if you attach an Apothecary, they can't. The signature Terminator unit, the Varagyr, can't benefit from the SW special rules. And why, oh why, do they cost so many points but only have one wound?!?! HQ choices in 30K are all expensive, and having to take one for every 1,000 points is a pretty hard tax to swallow. Think about this- if you run the Space Wolves and use Russ, Primarch's are not an HQ choice. So at say, 2,500 points, you will still need 3 HQ's in addition to Russ. That's 900+ points before you even factor in the rest of your army. Russ might be a beatstick in melee combat, but his Legion leaves a lot to be desired.

the legions are incredibly balanced between each other. But that largely stems from sharing a similar pool of troops to having balanced and flavorful rules. The true bullies of the format are not the legions but the mechanicum and solar auxilia.

As for legions, the usual offenders for strong bonuses (in no particular order)

1. iron hands: though toned down a bit since tanks were nerfed, they still are a powerful legion with universally good rules, strong wargear, and a great RoW. Their biggest downfall is that they have some of the most lack luster special units. If graviton guns were changed to not be heavy, this legion would really be nasty. They also have the most useful special character in Casterman Orth

2. Night lords: They have awesome chain glaives, pretty nice special characters, good special rules, a strong RoW, and a strong special unit. They also fit their fluff well. Further, the nerf to tanks and FW trying to push infantry lists was a big buff to this legion. And their terminator can deep strike.

3. Alpha legion: they have been known to be strong since the start

4. Dark Angels: the new kids on the block are very strong. The power sword bonus is kind of eh but the better heavy bolters are very nice. Further, their Rites of War are no joke. That is their real strength. While iron hands pay 80 pts to give a tank BS 5, the dark angels give it out like candy for free (if in a squadron of more than 2). Further, their sniper vets are no joke at all...sniper auto wounding on a 3+ instead of a 4+ is a large increase in lethality.

Dark Angels seem like the real underappreciated Legion to me, those acid rounds are vile.

 Tamwulf wrote:


Magnus doesn't ignore Pearls of the Warp, he just isn't affected by it unless he rolls three sixes, and ignores a 1 on the Pearls chart.

Magnus is good, but I don't think he could take Horus in melee. Horus has the Serpent's Scales that allow him to ignore Psychic Attacks on a 3+, or any psychic power that would affect his stats. Add Adamantium Will and he has a pretty good chance of ignoring any effect Magnus might try on Horus. So Magnus would have to rely on psychic powers that boost his own profile. Another item Magnus has is the Phantasmal Aura, making Horus hit him on a 4+ (instead of 3+) for the first round. Magnus would have to win within the first couple turns of close combat, or Horus will win. The Warmaster's Talon reduces Magnus' WS and S by -1 and is cumulative- if I was running Horus, I'd just use four of my attacks with the Talon and two of my attacks with WorldBreaker (giving Magnus a concussion) until Magnus was -4 WS/S, and then I'd shift over to WorldBreaker with four attacks and the Talon with two attacks.

This kind of combat is 100% subjective of course. Magnus, if he rolled the right powers (say, Invisibility), if he made all his Psychic Tests, if he rolled well enough... then yeah, I'd say he is the best Primarch, but that's a lot of rolling. Horus is pretty much straight up, this is what he is. If I was a loyalist player and knew I was facing Thousand Sons, I'd add in an Allied Detachment of Sisters of Silence and pretty much shut down all of the Psychic tricks the Thousand Sons have. Plus, it's never just Magnus and Horus fighting. It's Magnus and the Thousand Sons, and it's Horus and the Sons of Horus. The rest of your army matters, as well as the mission, terrain on the table, and the players themselves.

Thousand Sons are pretty cool. They were not what I was expecting. In a good way that is. I really like Magistus Amon, the Khenetai Occult Blade Cabal is niffty, and I love the Castellax-Achea! So yeah, Forge World did a great job with the Thousand Sons.

The Space Wolves though... they are kind of a disappointment with far too many contradictory rules and drawbacks. Such as most players that foot slog a Tactical Squad make 'em big (15-20 models) and attach Apothecaries. Grey Slayers- you want MSU's, to maximize wargear options, you want to run and charge and shoot- and if you attach an Apothecary, they can't. The signature Terminator unit, the Varagyr, can't benefit from the SW special rules. And why, oh why, do they cost so many points but only have one wound?!?! HQ choices in 30K are all expensive, and having to take one for every 1,000 points is a pretty hard tax to swallow. Think about this- if you run the Space Wolves and use Russ, Primarch's are not an HQ choice. So at say, 2,500 points, you will still need 3 HQ's in addition to Russ. That's 900+ points before you even factor in the rest of your army. Russ might be a beatstick in melee combat, but his Legion leaves a lot to be desired.

Sisters of Silence are a lot less spooky to psykers than you think in 30k as opposed to their 40k shenanigans

having played more than a few games with magnus against a lot of opponents, here's the deal: If he rolls on Biomancy, he is the single best melee primarch in the game. T: 9, S: 10 base (from iron arm), I: 8 7 attacks (w/ warp speed), and a 4+ FNP (from endurance) and he can basically take anyone in a fight. Add Smite at a longer range with anywhere from S:6-D AP: 2 and he's arguably the best overall right there, without even needing invis. Add onto this the fact that he casts on a 3+, and only perils on a tripple 6 means that he will be hard pressed to actually fail to get one of those spells off. There's a reason Horus was rather desperate to get him and the Tsons out of the game

As for sisters, they only really stall your spells once they close the gap, where they tend to get mowed down in a single bolter volley (since T: 3 is pretty hard to get over). and If you watned to be a rules lawyer, Custards and sisters can't technically ally with people, which I'm certain is an oversight.

on the Wolfs side: A base centurion is what? 50 points? and a base Praetor is 100. 3 praetors is 300 points bare bones, 600 points fully kitted out. Make that a kitted Praetor (200), and 2 basic beatstick centurions (AA, refractor field, power weapon) and you don't have TOO to many points sunk into wolves.

Besides that, they have 2 entertaining RoWs, an amazing infantry unit (the Guys who can swing if you kill them before they swing and have rad grenades), an amazing troop choice (even with the debateable lack of apothecary, they are good. Counter-attack, WS: 5 on the charge, and access to weapons that make world eaters jealous), and down right great HQ options (both of which have what amounts to better paragon blades), and the ability to basically WAAAGH! twice a game with Russ and one of the RoWs.

Hydra Dominatus.

Never know what you're going to be facing, all you know is it will be showing up in the best color scheme in 30k...