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 master of ordinance wrote:
As a Guard player, no. First turn charges would only invalidate y army even further.

You're quite the stubborn complainer.
In case you didn't know, your army is the only one which can effectively and cheaply protect itself against first turn charges.

Hell, most armies would be afraid of charging fearless AM blobs.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

Well technically all armies can pull off a 1st turn charge if you opponent moves maximum distance or DS's in your charging range XD

But Ynnari can also, easy when you get Soulburst to move 12" after you moved 12" and started 12" on the line.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

Well technically all armies can pull off a 1st turn charge if you opponent moves maximum distance or DS's in your charging range XD

But Ynnari can also, easy when you get Soulburst to move 12" after you moved 12" and started 12" on the line.

Not really no, you have to be within 7" of a dying unit to get one soulburst action.

In other words, yes the opponent of an Ynnari player could give him a T1 charge, like anyone can give anyone a T1 charge thanks to scouting or just dumbly moving forward.

Unless you're speaking of that one "give a soulburst action" psychic power?

morgoth wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

Well technically all armies can pull off a 1st turn charge if you opponent moves maximum distance or DS's in your charging range XD

But Ynnari can also, easy when you get Soulburst to move 12" after you moved 12" and started 12" on the line.

Not really no, you have to be within 7" of a dying unit to get one soulburst action.

In other words, yes the opponent of an Ynnari player could give him a T1 charge, like anyone can give anyone a T1 charge thanks to scouting or just dumbly moving forward.

Unless you're speaking of that one "give a soulburst action" psychic power?

You have Psyhic that gives a soulburst action.

I feel like T1 charges are good for the game as a whole, so long as only certain armies can do them and that they are difficult to pull off. GSC Ambush embodies this.
Also, most armies need a way to limit the damage (which most do, but deploying farther back or placing chaff units in front).

Deathstars, however, are bad for the game and should not get T1 charges.

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

It's a random chance to get the spell in the first place, then you need to successfully cast it and have it NOT be denied. And after all that you STILL have to deal with terrain, overwatch and charge distances before you start rolling to hit.
On top of that, you need not only the unit you want to charge with, you also need a psyker and a second unit to switch with. and that's like bare minimum.

Compare that to shooting: You just start shooting, period. You know what you can also do with shooting? Hit flying units. Good luck charging a flying circus.
There's another issue with electro discplacement though. And that's just psychic powers in general.
Thanks to random generation, there is WAY to big a disparity between powers. You might get some gamebreaking power like invisibility, or you might get a wet noodle.
That part of the balancing I mentioned that is an issue.

Imho, effects like displacement or assault from deepstrike that almost auto grant assaults (assuming you manage to jump through all the initial hoops) are still fine, but should be disordered charges.
I mean look at WE, they have a very high chance off getting off T1 charges, but it's still hard to get the assaults you want as opposed to charging whatever happens to be close enough. Never mind with the unit of your choice.
And even then it's still not easy as players learn to deploy all the way back and it REALLY relies on getting T1, which is by no means guaranteed either. Fail that and you can pick up models by the dozen.

 Roknar wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

It's a random chance to get the spell in the first place, then you need to successfully cast it and have it NOT be denied. And after all that you STILL have to deal with terrain, overwatch and charge distances before you start rolling to hit.
On top of that, you need not only the unit you want to charge with, you also need a psyker and a second unit to switch with. and that's like bare minimum.

Compare that to shooting: You just start shooting, period. You know what you can also do with shooting? Hit flying units. Good luck charging a flying circus.
There's another issue with electro discplacement though. And that's just psychic powers in general.
Thanks to random generation, there is WAY to big a disparity between powers. You might get some gamebreaking power like invisibility, or you might get a wet noodle.
That part of the balancing I mentioned that is an issue.

Imho, effects like displacement or assault from deepstrike that almost auto grant assaults (assuming you manage to jump through all the initial hoops) are still fine, but should be disordered charges.
I mean look at WE, they have a very high chance off getting off T1 charges, but it's still hard to get the assaults you want as opposed to charging whatever happens to be close enough. Never mind with the unit of your choice.
And even then it's still not easy as players learn to deploy all the way back and it REALLY relies on getting T1, which is by no means guaranteed either. Fail that and you can pick up models by the dozen.

Yeah but you have redundancies with multi psykers and formation to make sure you get it, cast it and not be denied (If you are doing this its your most important spell so you will use the 2+ to cast and use extra dice).

 Backspacehacker wrote:
the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

KDK Fist Of Khorne formation specifically allows a turn 1 charge from deep strike, but you are paying around 600 points for the privelege.

Crispy78 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

KDK Fist Of Khorne formation specifically allows a turn 1 charge from deep strike, but you are paying around 600 points for the privelege.

As can the Assault Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force:

First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

It should only be allowed if your opponent moved in close for you. You shouldn't move 2+ feet in one turn on top of shooting and charging.

All of you pimping the electrodisplacement assault: look at how many points you have poured into getting ofr a SINGLE ASSAULT. It's crazy. Also, if you think your opponent has a good chance of pulling this off, DEPLOY ACCORDINGLY.

Conversely, unless the terrain gods have blessed me with LOS-blocking terrain, I can't counter deploy against shooting.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

Shooting allows for cover, and doesn't lock units down until it's resolved, and allows for cover saves, going to ground, and doesn't end with sweeping advances.

Shooting also can only target a single unit, you can Multicharge the world if it's within 12 inches

Your melta guys will not delete a riptide after deep striking, your 10 assault marines however tie it down for 5 turns of CC if they get in cc.

Charging is extremely potent at removing units from play. Getting a beat stick in CC is always going to remove the other unit from play regardless of the result. Shooting isn't ususally an all or nothing proposition. There are several reasons why deep strike charging is very different from shooting when considering balance.

Also do you really want every unit in the game to be able to shoot and then charge after deep strike? It would really make eldar tau and marines better more than anyone else.

Actually multicharge is much harder than you think because the unit has to end in coherency.

When you charge say a riptide, you are also removing the assaulting unitfrom the game.

Players have to construct intricate deathstars to survive 7th ed shooting. At least from the good shooting lists.

Martel732 wrote:
All of you pimping the electrodisplacement assault: look at how many points you have poured into getting ofr a SINGLE ASSAULT. It's crazy. Also, if you think your opponent has a good chance of pulling this off, DEPLOY ACCORDINGLY.

Conversely, unless the terrain gods have blessed me with LOS-blocking terrain, I can't counter deploy against shooting.

This. And harnessing displacement on a 2+ is something only a single formation in the game can do. Everybody else is rocking their 4+.
That not an issue with first turn assaults. That's a balance issue in general.
And then it still goes back to what Martel said. Now you have several psykers, including a special char, as well as two units in order to charge ONE unit.
That's close to 1000 points to *maybe* get a first turn charge. There still a number of things that could go wrong BEFORE the actual assault happens.

In contrast you need exactly as many points/units as you want in order to shoot another unit on T1, with less randomness involved to boot.
What can you do? Sit in a bunker? deploy out of LOS and hope the opponent can't maneuver in such a way as to deny that?
And so what if you can get a cover at range?

Some weapons ignore it, D don't care what you got and since appernetly displacement is so easy to get and cast, well guess what is even easier then?
Ignore Cover, and line of sight while you're at it. It just requires the psykers and the unit to shoot. No random ranges or pesky terrain or even a chance to retaliate before.
And after you're done? You're still potentially on the other side of the table, ready to do it again. This also does not require any transports, ever. Unless you want to sit inside your equally shooty onion and shoot from inside.
Shielding you from any assault, which can't even attack you after destroying whatever you were embarked in.

Shooting is so much more reliable, cheaper and safer it's not even funny. And works without psychic support, while it also benefits from in spades.

The melta guys example is funny. The melta guys won't do squat because they won't survive interceptor and if they do, they wound the riptide, maybe.
The assault guys? Get torn apart by interceptor AND multiple overwatch attacks and whatever is left, if anything, isn't going to be around for 5 rounds.
Nor are they going to reach the riptide as it has a drones or whatever around it to prevent that. Aaand then die the following turn as they are sitting conveniently in rapid fire range.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually multicharge is much harder than you think because the unit has to end in coherency.

When you charge say a riptide, you are also removing the assaulting unitfrom the game.

Players have to construct intricate deathstars to survive 7th ed shooting. At least from the good shooting lists.

That's because tau eldar and marines are stupid. I think pushing them back would be a better change than making all units be able to charge turn 1 or out of deep strike. Imagine going first with grey Knights and tabling half your opponents list because everything can charge. If we keep making everything kill everything in two turns eventually it'll boil down to rolling for who goes first.

Not everything should be able to T1 assault obviously. Like you said, overall balance is an issue. But it's not the ability to perform T1 charges that is at fault. There's nothing wrong with the idea.

Things like deepstriking T1 and assaulting with no penalty should not be a thing. That's a whole other beast in comparison to running across the table without a transport and hoping you make it though.

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually multicharge is much harder than you think because the unit has to end in coherency.

When you charge say a riptide, you are also removing the assaulting unitfrom the game.

Players have to construct intricate deathstars to survive 7th ed shooting. At least from the good shooting lists.

That's because tau eldar and marines are stupid. I think pushing them back would be a better change than making all units be able to charge turn 1 or out of deep strike. Imagine going first with grey Knights and tabling half your opponents list because everything can charge. If we keep making everything kill everything in two turns eventually it'll boil down to rolling for who goes first.

Even if GK could charge from deep strike , they have scatter mitigation on turn 1. You could STILL deploy to encourage mishaps and force them to charge garbage units, setting them up for a horrific beta strike. I personally have had trouble getting terminators into combat with the OIF for BA. It's not as easy as it sounds. Any kind of shrub or rock gives you a -2 charge distance. It's not easy for infantry w/o move through cover.

Still if you are getting first turn Charged.. it is basically your own fault for not deploying effectively

While it can be sometime impossible to avoid, it isn't hard to know it is coming, in which case it is deploy with effective screening units.

So if you are losing as game due to first turn charges, it is really your own fault

With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

But as I said you generally will know if your opponent has the ability to get a T1 Charge off, so you will have more then enough chance to deploy effectively to counter it.

Not your opponents fault if you are bad at the game

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

Try not getting electro displacement with tigurius in the conclave, I dare you.

I've already managed, it's one of the reasons I rate psychic trees by their Primaris Power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

Shooting allows for cover, and doesn't lock units down until it's resolved, and allows for cover saves, going to ground, and doesn't end with sweeping advances.

Shooting also can only target a single unit, you can Multicharge the world if it's within 12 inches

Your melta guys will not delete a riptide after deep striking, your 10 assault marines however tie it down for 5 turns of CC if they get in cc.

Charging is extremely potent at removing units from play. Getting a beat stick in CC is always going to remove the other unit from play regardless of the result. Shooting isn't ususally an all or nothing proposition. There are several reasons why deep strike charging is very different from shooting when considering balance.

Also do you really want every unit in the game to be able to shoot and then charge after deep strike? It would really make eldar tau and marines better more than anyone else.

Charging allows for responses like Overwatch.
The most powerful melee unit in the game can be completely thwarted for a turn by being blocked by the cheapest unit in the game.
Those ten deepstriking marines -assuming they don't get deleted on arrival by Tau EWO can be blocked by 25 points of Gue'vesa, shot at in Overwatch then blasted by whatever happens to be about when the Gue'vesa break and run and the Marines stop and stare about for a turn.

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

Disagree. Only if you let it.

 Vaktathi wrote:
With the way close combat works, turn 1 charges are not good things for the game.

The ability to lock actions and prevent movement, hide from shooting, hit vehicles on rear armor, break and destroy units without having to kill them to the last man, ignore cover saves, etc is extremely powerful, which is the reward for CC being harder to engage over shooting. Being able to pull that off Turn 1 can absolutely ruin games before someone has a chance to do anything.

What would ruin a game faster for someone? A few units turn 1 charge, Or playing against Ynnari with 4 WK's, 6 units of scatter bikes (as troops) and 4 10pts HQ's. Giving your WK's and Bikes 2x shooting power

I would rather have turn 1 charges......

Anyways turn 1 charging only works if you miss deploy. You can place throw away units in front of your important ones (This is called screening or bubble wrapping)
You can place IN terrain or inside builds, up high. If you they are vehicles you can place behind LoS/Impassible terrain to force them to move 6+ more inches.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

Try not getting electro displacement with tigurius in the conclave, I dare you.

I've already managed, it's one of the reasons I rate psychic trees by their Primaris Power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

Shooting allows for cover, and doesn't lock units down until it's resolved, and allows for cover saves, going to ground, and doesn't end with sweeping advances.

Shooting also can only target a single unit, you can Multicharge the world if it's within 12 inches

Your melta guys will not delete a riptide after deep striking, your 10 assault marines however tie it down for 5 turns of CC if they get in cc.

Charging is extremely potent at removing units from play. Getting a beat stick in CC is always going to remove the other unit from play regardless of the result. Shooting isn't ususally an all or nothing proposition. There are several reasons why deep strike charging is very different from shooting when considering balance.

Also do you really want every unit in the game to be able to shoot and then charge after deep strike? It would really make eldar tau and marines better more than anyone else.

Charging allows for responses like Overwatch.
The most powerful melee unit in the game can be completely thwarted for a turn by being blocked by the cheapest unit in the game.
Those ten deepstriking marines -assuming they don't get deleted on arrival by Tau EWO can be blocked by 25 points of Gue'vesa, shot at in Overwatch then blasted by whatever happens to be about when the Gue'vesa break and run and the Marines stop and stare about for a turn.

Gue'vesa aren't legal, and you can shoot the unit in front of the target with other units to get them out of the way. You people talk like guards can't be delt with before the assault phase.

That depends on how much shooting you have. KDK and butcher horde formation probably don´t have that much shooting available to them. I know that my Slaanesh incursion doesn´t have any shooting except in the psychic phase (Fateweaver is my go to shooting monster)

 Jaxler wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

Try not getting electro displacement with tigurius in the conclave, I dare you.

I've already managed, it's one of the reasons I rate psychic trees by their Primaris Power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

Even though "Well my shooty guys deep strike into your deployment zone and obliterate everything around their LZ" is a thing?

Shooting allows for cover, and doesn't lock units down until it's resolved, and allows for cover saves, going to ground, and doesn't end with sweeping advances.

Shooting also can only target a single unit, you can Multicharge the world if it's within 12 inches

Your melta guys will not delete a riptide after deep striking, your 10 assault marines however tie it down for 5 turns of CC if they get in cc.

Charging is extremely potent at removing units from play. Getting a beat stick in CC is always going to remove the other unit from play regardless of the result. Shooting isn't ususally an all or nothing proposition. There are several reasons why deep strike charging is very different from shooting when considering balance.

Also do you really want every unit in the game to be able to shoot and then charge after deep strike? It would really make eldar tau and marines better more than anyone else.

Charging allows for responses like Overwatch.
The most powerful melee unit in the game can be completely thwarted for a turn by being blocked by the cheapest unit in the game.
Those ten deepstriking marines -assuming they don't get deleted on arrival by Tau EWO can be blocked by 25 points of Gue'vesa, shot at in Overwatch then blasted by whatever happens to be about when the Gue'vesa break and run and the Marines stop and stare about for a turn.

Gue'vesa aren't legal, and you can shoot the unit in front of the target with other units to get them out of the way. You people talk like guards can't be delt with before the assault phase.

They've already done their job and created a 13" charge, though. You can't get rid of them in the movement phase, which is all that matters.

I voted yes, but with the caveat that they're not automatic.

Like, I should have a way to impact that.

Namely, the psychic phase should be the primary way to enable a first turn charge.

For instance, Infiltrate + Scout Move + Fulmination + Charge is a totally valid combo to create a first turn charge.

What should NOT happen, is "i'm deploying, and now charging," without any effort, or ability for your opponent to respond. In the psychic phase there is the opportunity to deny / fail the power, so it's not guaranteed and your opponent gets to respond.

And please don't bring up overwatch. Unless EVERYONE gets first turn charge, primarily melee armies will be at a huge disadvantage by going second. Think about that. A melee army without 100% deep strike suddenly is a total goat. Also, don't bring up overwatch until we get some serious improvements to the chances to hit, and slow & purp get to shoot it. If overwatch was "-2 to ballistic skill, to a minimum of 1" then yeah, i'd say "charge on turn 1 all day, overwatch is my totes bruhs" but that isn't the case, and some of the more powerful units don't even get to fire it.

Wizards of the Coast do not allow first turn combos, or combos that don't allow counter play. This is a good philosophy. First turn charges without counter play are not fun.

I think scouting should allow charging, however infiltrating should not.

I think outflanking should allow charges as well on most units but deepstriking should not except for specific units.

Electro displacement should behave exactly like deepstrike and not allowed to charge the turn they magically appear. If you ever faced a lib council space marine army with it. It's basically a guaranteed ability and just excessively broken.

First turn charges on certain units and Death Stars is just game breakingly bad however on many assault units it makes those dedicated units useful and thematic. The ravenguard and skyshield formations both are good examples of cool but not overpowered assault units even with first turn charges hey aren't powerful.

"If you ever faced a lib council space marine army with it. It's basically a guaranteed ability and just excessively broken. "

I have. But they still lost.