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Ceann wrote:
You cannot be in Reserves and Deep Strike reserves buddy.

Or are you arguing that any unit Deep Strike reserves can give up and just walk on the board instead?
I have an FAQ that proves Deep Strike reserves exists.

You have a poignant demeanor and a red highlighter.

The rules disagree. Deep Strike Reserves is a nominated state of a unit in Reserves. Deep Strike Reserves are a nominated subset of units in Reserves.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Per the rules, a unit that is in Deep Strike Reserves is also in Reserves.

Them's the rules. You need to adjust your argument or it will be invalid.

Ceann wrote:You cannot be in Reserves and Deep Strike reserves buddy.

Or are you arguing that any unit Deep Strike reserves can give up and just walk on the board instead?
I have an FAQ that proves Deep Strike reserves exists.

You have a poignant demeanor and a red highlighter.

Actually, you have to be in Reserves in order to be in Deep Strike Reserves. It's in the definition.

Maybe you are having a little trouble understanding the rules, but that is okay.

You see the Eternity Gate can't be used the turn it, itself, deep strikes. So on the following turn if the Deathmarks come out of "reserve" then they are disembarking a vehicle, they are not arriving from deep strike.

Ceann wrote:
Maybe you are having a little trouble understanding the rules, but that is okay.

You see the Eternity Gate can't be used the turn it, itself, deep strikes. So on the following turn if the Deathmarks come out of "reserve" then they are disembarking a vehicle, they are not arriving from deep strike.

The Hunters from Hyperspace rule does not care if the Deathmarks arrive BY Deep Strike.

The Hunters from Hyperspace rule only cares if the Deathmarks arrive FROM Deep Strike Reserves. Which they did. The Deathmarks were in Deep Strike Reserves before they arrived via Eternity Gate.

And before that they were at the players house.
Oh, I think they were also in Deep Strike Reserves last week at Johns house. So as long as I play with them ONE TIME they are always FROM deep strike reserves.

Except they never arrive from deepstrike reserves, they disembarked from a transport. In order to arrive from deepstrike reserves, you need to deepstrike.
The LAST place they arrive from, is a transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

The Hunters from Hyperspace rule only cares if the Deathmarks arrive FROM Deep Strike Reserves. Which they did. The Deathmarks were in Deep Strike Reserves before they arrived via Eternity Gate.

Think you figured it out yourself.

Ceann wrote:
And before that they were at the players house.
Oh, I think they were also in Deep Strike Reserves last week at Johns house. So as long as I play with them ONE TIME they are always FROM deep strike reserves.

Except they never arrive from deepstrike reserves, they disembarked from a transport. In order to arrive from deepstrike reserves, you need to deepstrike.
The LAST place they arrive from, is a transport.

Incorrect. The Deathmarks never embark on the Monolith. They are only placed on the battlefield as if they are disembarking from the Monolith's portal.

At the start of each friendly turn, you may choose one friendly unit with the Necrons Faction consisting entirely of models with either the Infantry or Jump Infantry unit type that is in Reserves, Ongoing Reserves, or is on the table and not locked in combat. If the chosen unit is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, it automatically arrives this turn (no dice roll is required) and it is placed as if it were disembarking from the Monolith’s portal at the start of the Movement phase.

So the Deathmarks arrive FROM Deep Strike Reserves as that is where they were when Eternity of Gate caused them to arrive this turn.

Hunters from Hyperspace is satisfied.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that they'll be arriving by Deep Strike (Sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

"Deep Strike Reserve" = Arriving by Deep Strike. Am I the only one seeing this?

There is no such place as 'Deep Strike Reserve'. There is no way to put a unit there to arrive from. All Deep Strike Reserve does is change the arrival from the Board Edge to arriving using the Deep Strike rules. It's cherry picking definitions to place a unit in reserve, then change it Deep Strike Reserve so that it arrives via that method, then change the definition back to Reserves so that it can benefit from Eternity Gate, then back to Deep Strike Reserve to benefit from HFH. There is nothing covering one being a subset of the other while simultaneously being both.

All units are only deployed on the board, or placed in Reserve. You can change the arrival of the unit in Reserve through various means. Deep Strike Reserve is simply declaring to your opponent that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike. Where are you getting any instruction to do more than this? When you don't do this, you are no longer arriving from Deep Strike Reserve because you didn't fill out all the commitment of Deep Strike Reserve by actually Deep Striking. If you don't Deep Strike the Deathmarks, there is nothing allowing you to benefit from HFH because you didn't, at any point in the turn they arrived, actually Deep Strike the unit.

No, it arrived AUTOMATICALLY.
It didn't arrive via Deep Strike reserves.
You showed up , put the pieces in reserves.
Then they come out of the Eternity Gate.

So they were never in deepstrike reserves.
The only way you can prove they were is by actually deep striking them.
Nothing cares about where they WERE only about how they arrived.

 Akar wrote:

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that they'll be arriving by Deep Strike (Sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

"Deep Strike Reserve" = Arriving by Deep Strike. Am I the only one seeing this?

There is no such place as 'Deep Strike Reserve'. There is no way to put a unit there to arrive from. All Deep Strike Reserve does is change the arrival from the Board Edge to arriving using the Deep Strike rules. It's cherry picking definitions to place a unit in reserve, then change it Deep Strike Reserve so that it arrives via that method, then change the definition back to Reserves so that it can benefit from Eternity Gate, then back to Deep Strike Reserve to benefit from HFH. There is nothing covering one being a subset of the other while simultaneously being both.

All units are only deployed on the board, or placed in Reserve. You can change the arrival of the unit in Reserve through various means. Deep Strike Reserve is simply declaring to your opponent that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike. Where are you getting any instruction to do more than this? When you don't do this, you are no longer arriving from Deep Strike Reserve because you didn't fill out all the commitment of Deep Strike Reserve by actually Deep Striking. If you don't Deep Strike the Deathmarks, there is nothing allowing you to benefit from HFH because you didn't, at any point in the turn they arrived, actually Deep Strike the unit.

Both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves are nominal concepts. I nominate this unit in Reserves. I nominate this other unit in Deep Strike Reseves (which means its also in Reserves). Etc.

The Hunter from Hyperspace rule isn't worded to care that the unit actually arrived BY deep strike only that it arrived FROM Deep Strike Reserve.

Literally speaking, it did.

Literally speaking, it doesn't matter.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in
Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike.

They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

 Akar wrote:

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that they'll be arriving by Deep Strike (Sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).

"Deep Strike Reserve" = Arriving by Deep Strike. Am I the only one seeing this?

There is no such place as 'Deep Strike Reserve'. There is no way to put a unit there to arrive from. All Deep Strike Reserve does is change the arrival from the Board Edge to arriving using the Deep Strike rules. It's cherry picking definitions to place a unit in reserve, then change it Deep Strike Reserve so that it arrives via that method, then change the definition back to Reserves so that it can benefit from Eternity Gate, then back to Deep Strike Reserve to benefit from HFH. There is nothing covering one being a subset of the other while simultaneously being both.

All units are only deployed on the board, or placed in Reserve. You can change the arrival of the unit in Reserve through various means. Deep Strike Reserve is simply declaring to your opponent that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike. Where are you getting any instruction to do more than this? When you don't do this, you are no longer arriving from Deep Strike Reserve because you didn't fill out all the commitment of Deep Strike Reserve by actually Deep Striking. If you don't Deep Strike the Deathmarks, there is nothing allowing you to benefit from HFH because you didn't, at any point in the turn they arrived, actually Deep Strike the unit.

Actually, there is such a place as "Deep Strike Reserves", and it is important in situations like Hunters From Hyperspace.

For an example. I have a Deathmark unit and I put a Lord in there with the Veil of Darkness which grants the model Deep Strike and allows you to remove the unit and place them immediately on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

I put this unit in Reserves to Deep Strike, and they Deep Strike in. They use Hunters From Hyperspace.

The next turn, the player wants his Rapid Fire Snipers to be in a different Spot so uses the Veil of Darkess to reposition them elsewhere. The Deathmarks cannot use Hunters From Hyperspace because while they did arrive by Deep Strike, they did not come from Reserves by Deep Strike.

They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Last line of the rule.

Ceann wrote:
Literally speaking, it doesn't matter.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in
Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike.

They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Don't misquote. The last sentence you bolded applies to units that must arrive by Deep Strike.

One of the biggest problems I have with you is your penchant for misquoting and misinforming.

LMAO, coming from you.
Word soup, shenanigans and everything out of context.

They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

If he starts in Deep Strike Reserve.
Then he comes in by Deep Strike.

Always.

Full stop.

 Charistoph wrote:

Actually, there is such a place as "Deep Strike Reserves", and it is important in situations like Hunters From Hyperspace.

For an example. I have a Deathmark unit and I put a Lord in there with the Veil of Darkness which grants the model Deep Strike and allows you to remove the unit and place them immediately on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

I put this unit in Reserves to Deep Strike, and they Deep Strike in. They use Hunters From Hyperspace.

The next turn, the player wants his Rapid Fire Snipers to be in a different Spot so uses the Veil of Darkess to reposition them elsewhere. The Deathmarks cannot use Hunters From Hyperspace because while they did arrive by Deep Strike, they did not come from Reserves by Deep Strike.

Interestingly, if the unit mishaps and goes into Ongoing Reserves they can choose to go into Deep Strike Reserves. When they subsequently deep strike onto the board, the Hunters from Hyperspace rule will be re-triggered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
LMAO, coming from you.
Word soup, shenanigans and everything out of context.

They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

If he starts in Deep Strike Reserve.
Then he comes in by Deep Strike.

Always.

Full stop.

When you broadcast to the thread that you fail at reading comprehension it doesn't help your argument.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Or not.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike

You will automatically go into Ongoing Reserves, not Reserve.

Ceann wrote:

Or not.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike

You will automatically go into Ongoing Reserves, not Reserve.

You should crack open the BRB every once in a while . . .

Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.

So should you?

This is how you perform "arriving by deep strike."
If you aren't doing this, you aren't meeting the criteria for the ability.

Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and
then deploy them as follows:

• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.

• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When
the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.

• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

Ceann wrote:
So should you?

This is how you perform "arriving by deep strike."
If you aren't doing this, you aren't meeting the criteria for the ability.

Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and
then deploy them as follows:

• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.

• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When
the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.

• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

That's cool. Thanks for the refresher. Not sure though why you are showing me "arriving by deep strike".

Hunters from Hyperspace is checking to see if the unit arrived FROM Deep Strike Reserves. Which it did. The Deathmark unit was unequivocally in Deep Strike Reserves at the start of the turn and indeed arrived from Deep Strike Reserves when placed on the table via Eternity Gate.

Hunters from Hyperspace: During the player turn in which this unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve, all shooting attacks made by the Deathmarks in this unit will wound on To Wound rolls of 2+, regardless of the victim’s Toughness.

It didn't arrive, it disembarked.

Ceann wrote:
It didn't arrive, it disembarked.

The rules just keep disagreeing with you.

At the start of each friendly turn, you may choose one friendly unit with the Necrons Faction consisting entirely of models with either the Infantry or Jump Infantry unit type that is in Reserves, Ongoing Reserves, or is on the table and not locked in combat. If the chosen unit is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, it automatically arrives this turn (no dice roll is required) and it is placed as if it were disembarking from the Monolith’s portal at the start of the Movement phase.

Ceann,

please just take the time to read up on all the rules and come back to this thread when you are better informed.

So it was placed, it didn't arrive.
Got it.

No matter how you want to play with it.
The LAST thing it needs to do is "arrive" and that isn't the last thing it is doing. It is either being placed, or disembarking.

 Charistoph wrote:
Actually, there is such a place as "Deep Strike Reserves", and it is important in situations like Hunters From Hyperspace.

What Page is it covered on?

One of the two are poorly worded, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion. HFH implies that there must be a place, because if there wasn't, then the whole thing would collapse and be unplayable. So we can reason one of two outcomes. That the word from is being read too specifically, and could/should also mean by Deep Strike Reserve. Or that we have to create a place called Deep Strike Reserve when there is nothing in the core rules to cover it existing or how to place units there. There is certainly no instruction in the Deep Strike rules to do so, or it would have said something along the lines of 'Instead of placing the unit in Reserves, units with the Deep Strike rule are placed in Deep Strike Reserve...'.

Honestly, the shortened version of what this discussion is about, is enough to disallow it. 'Hey guys, I found a way to count a unit as Deep Striking without ever having to actually Deep Strike!' is just mind boggling. LOOK at how much effort is being expended to do something they can't do. If this were an exploit or a loophole, then the argument might make sense. This is about shifting the weight of the interpretation to a specific statement that isn't covered in the BRB, as opposed to just going with the simplest, actual interpretation, instead of some convoluted house rule, so that it can make sense.

Did the arrive from/by/via/with/using the Deep Strike rules? No. Then you don't get to benefit from HFH.

Ceann wrote:
So it was placed, it didn't arrive.
Got it.

No matter how you want to play with it.
The LAST thing it needs to do is "arrive" and that isn't the last thing it is doing. It is either being placed, or disembarking.

Incorrect. The quote I referenced indicates that the unit arrives.

At the start of each friendly turn, you may choose one friendly unit with the Necrons Faction consisting entirely of models with either the Infantry or Jump Infantry unit type that is in Reserves, Ongoing Reserves, or is on the table and not locked in combat. If the chosen unit is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, it automatically arrives this turn (no dice roll is required) and it is placed as if it were disembarking from the Monolith’s portal at the start of the Movement phase.

Hunters from Hyperspace only cares if it had arrived FROM Deep Spaces Reserves at some time earlier that turn. Which it did.

During the player turn in which this unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve, all shooting attacks made by the Deathmarks in this unit will wound on To Wound rolls of 2+, regardless of the victim’s Toughness.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Akar wrote:


Did the arrive from/by/via/with/using the Deep Strike rules? No. Then you don't get to benefit from HFH.

HfH asks specifically if the Deathmarks arrived from Deep Strike Reserves. The answer to that is yes. Yes they did.

And that is why they do get the benefit from HfH.

You are not allowed to change the question the HfH rule is asking.

 Akar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Actually, there is such a place as "Deep Strike Reserves", and it is important in situations like Hunters From Hyperspace.

What Page is it covered on?

The very sentence you quoted.

 Akar wrote:
One of the two are poorly worded, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion. HFH implies that there must be a place, because if there wasn't, then the whole thing would collapse and be unplayable. So we can reason one of two outcomes. That the word from is being read too specifically, and could/should also mean by Deep Strike Reserve. Or that we have to create a place called Deep Strike Reserve when there is nothing in the core rules to cover it existing or how to place units there. There is certainly no instruction in the Deep Strike rules to do so, or it would have said something along the lines of 'Instead of placing the unit in Reserves, units with the Deep Strike rule are placed in Deep Strike Reserve...'.

The terms used in the BRB is "Arrive From Reserve" for the process of bringing units in from Reserves. There is no physical place reserved for it on the table, because a unit in Reserves is not supposed to be on the table. The physical place can be anywhere that is not part of the gaming area so as not to get confused.

"Deep Strike Reserves" is where a unit is in Reserves waiting to be deployed via Deep Strike. It really is that simple and not that complicated. It is set aside as a specific holding pattern for Reserves. Again, the reason they make a note of it is that there are some special rules that take advantage of it and to separate it from units which Deep Strike without going through Reserves. I named one method, but there is another Necron Artefact on a Unique Character that does it, also, and a BRB Psychic Power called Gate of Infinity that does the same thing.

So when you have Deathmarks, and a few other unit special rules and formation special rules which rely on this distinction, it is important to make note of it.

 Akar wrote:
Honestly, the shortened version of what this discussion is about, is enough to disallow it. 'Hey guys, I found a way to count a unit as Deep Striking without ever having to actually Deep Strike!' is just mind boggling. LOOK at how much effort is being expended to do something they can't do. If this were an exploit or a loophole, then the argument might make sense. This is about shifting the weight of the interpretation to a specific statement that isn't covered in the BRB, as opposed to just going with the simplest, actual interpretation, instead of some convoluted house rule, so that it can make sense.

Did the arrive from/by/via/with/using the Deep Strike rules? No. Then you don't get to benefit from HFH.

Pretty much in a "normal" scenario.

However, as I mentioned earlier, the Living Tomb Formation does allow a Monolith to Deep Strike AND use its Eternity Gate in the same turn. It's expensive as all get out with the Obelisk Super-Useless, I mean Super-Heavy, being the centerpiece, to just deliver Deathmarks where you want them, especially if the Monoliths arrive after your Deathmarks.

 Charistoph wrote:
The very sentence you quoted.

Care to enlighten me then. You're seeing something that isn't there.

When the unit is placed in Reserve,
* Controlling player chooses to place the unit in Reserve instead of deploying it on the table.
you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
* Controlling Player then informs his opponent that the will be arriving by Deep Strike, as opposed to the Board Edge as normal.
(Sometimes referred to as Deep Strike Reserve)
* How does linking this description apply to more than just informing the opponent?
* Where are we instructed to create a new area called 'Deep Strike Reserve' when we've just been told to place them in Reserve?

It doesn't exist. We simply put the unit into Reserve. At no point in time are we instructed to change/create a sub entity called 'Deep Strike Reserve', and then place the Deep Striking unit there.

 Charistoph wrote:
"Deep Strike Reserves" is where a unit is in Reserves waiting to be deployed via Deep Strike. It really is that simple and not that complicated. It is set aside as a specific holding pattern for Reserves. Again, the reason they make a note of it is that there are some special rules that take advantage of it and to separate it from units which Deep Strike without going through Reserves. I named one method, but there is another Necron Artefact on a Unique Character that does it, also, and a BRB Psychic Power called Gate of Infinity that does the same thing.

Using the rules for Deep Strike and arriving from Deep Strike Reserve has been cleared up in the FAQ.

 Charistoph wrote:
So when you have Deathmarks, and a few other unit special rules and formation special rules which rely on this distinction, it is important to make note of it.

It is important to make a note of it, but only as far as informing your opponent that they will be arriving by Deep Strike, so there is no surprises as to HOW the unit will be arriving from Reserves. The only WHERE they are arriving from is Reserves. It's the same place all Reserves are, regardless if they are arriving from Reserve, Deep Strike or Outflank. There is nothing allowing a player to create a special reserve place and put units there.

 Charistoph wrote:
However, as I mentioned earlier, the Living Tomb Formation does allow a Monolith to Deep Strike AND use its Eternity Gate in the same turn. It's expensive as all get out with the Obelisk Super-Useless, I mean Super-Heavy, being the centerpiece, to just deliver Deathmarks where you want them, especially if the Monoliths arrive after your Deathmarks.

Quickly going to jump in and note that the living Tomb Formation states that it must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Without separate instructions on creating this entity, we have to refer to what the BRB instructs us. Which is when placing the unit in Reserve, we must inform them that the Living Tomb will be arriving by Deep Strike. They're still only in Reserve. The only other exception is the Obelisk overrides the need to roll and automatically arrives on turn 2. Since the formation must arrive at the same time, they all auto arrive... from Reserve. (Not Deep Strike Reserve)

Yes, the Living Tomb Formation does allow a Monolith to Deep Strike and use Eternity Gate, but there is a catch. You can only select a unit that is already in Reserve/Ongoing Reserve. The option to use a unit that's already on the table is unavailable when the Formation shows up on Turn 2. In this Scenario, you're going to have the Living Tomb arrive first. (It doesn't matter if the Deathmarks made their roll or not because the monoliths get to trigger the Eternity Gate immediately after they Deep Strike. The player has the option at this point in time to use the Eternity Gate on the Deathmarks. Where does he pull them from? He pulls them from Reserve, which is where they are. This replaces the condition which the controlling player informed his opponent that they would be arriving. As they are now no longer arriving by Deep Strike, they are no longer arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

We roll for ALL Reserves at the start of the turn to determine which units are arriving (P.135 and P.162), before any of them arrive. So there isn't any rolling for one unit, and then deploying that unit, and then rolling the next, and so on. If the Deathmarks make their reserve roll on Turn 2 they've already started the process of arriving from Reserve. They are no longer in it. It a simultaneous event that gets resolved in the order of the controlling players choosing. No permission is given to change the arrival method at this stage, and they have already committed to Deep Strike Reserve as the controlling player has informed his opponent that is how they are arriving. His opponent actually has a rule that can force him to Deep Strike the Deathmarks. If the reserve roll is failed by the Deathmarks then they remain in Reserve. As they are still in Reserve when the Living Tomb Formation arrives, they are eligible for Eternity Gate.

Why it's borderline cheating. The controlling players wants all the benefits of having the Deathmarks a guaranteed turn 2 arrival, and none of the drawbacks. It's piggy backing one rule on to the other. It's an eerily similar scenario to when Tau players tried to use a Buffmander to apply to all units participating in 'Combined Fire'. In this case it's almost worse because you're using the Eternity Gate to auto bring on a failed Deathmark unit, do not actually Deep Strike the unit, then claim that it still did Deep Strike regardless if you passed or failed the Reserve roll.

Personally, I'd allow it. As you said, it's a huge point sink for VERY little return. If I had to help a new player out, run an event, or run a shop, etc. I'd have to go with the rules and disallow it. If the OP really wants to have this discussion every time he springs it on someone the first time, that's his choice. I don't really think it matters with the next edition around the corner tbh.

Well your wrong about two things.

First, it cannot use gate the turn it deepstrike the effect happens at the start of turn when reserve rolls are made. Once you are deploying it cannot use the ability. There is also an faq that states as such.

Secondly the death marks must arrive from deep strike reserve. If they are in reserve as you say and deep strike reserve doesn't exist the the ability would never work.

Regardless of all that, he arrives automatically, he doesn't arrive from deep strike reserve. After he arrives automatically he is placed as though he disembarked.

Automatically does not = deep strike reserve

A unit of Deathmarks are in Reserve ready to Deep Strike onto the battlefield, a Lord decides "no I need them now" and uses the Eternity Gate, the Deathmarks Deep Strike out of the doorway therefore fulfilling all requirements for them to use Hunters from Hyperspace on Ceann as he waves his arms like a lunatic because he's on the wrong side of another set of rules.

Akar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The very sentence you quoted.

Care to enlighten me then. You're seeing something that isn't there.

When the unit is placed in Reserve,
* Controlling player chooses to place the unit in Reserve instead of deploying it on the table.
you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
* Controlling Player then informs his opponent that the will be arriving by Deep Strike, as opposed to the Board Edge as normal.
(Sometimes referred to as Deep Strike Reserve)
* How does linking this description apply to more than just informing the opponent?
* Where are we instructed to create a new area called 'Deep Strike Reserve' when we've just been told to place them in Reserve?

It doesn't exist. We simply put the unit into Reserve. At no point in time are we instructed to change/create a sub entity called 'Deep Strike Reserve', and then place the Deep Striking unit there.

It gives the name right there, and defines it and you say it doesn't exist? Interesting.

Deep Strike Reserves is a Reserves position with a declaration of intending to Deep Strike.

A unit in Reserves with the intending to Deep Strike is in Deep Strike Reserves. I am simply using the definition provided.

Akar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
"Deep Strike Reserves" is where a unit is in Reserves waiting to be deployed via Deep Strike. It really is that simple and not that complicated. It is set aside as a specific holding pattern for Reserves. Again, the reason they make a note of it is that there are some special rules that take advantage of it and to separate it from units which Deep Strike without going through Reserves. I named one method, but there is another Necron Artefact on a Unique Character that does it, also, and a BRB Psychic Power called Gate of Infinity that does the same thing.

Using the rules for Deep Strike and arriving from Deep Strike Reserve has been cleared up in the FAQ.

No, it hasn't. It has cleared up the difference between arriving by Deep Strike and arriving from Deep Strike Reserves.

And the GW FAQ isn't a good hallmark for a RAW discussion, as it has often counted the written rule without actually amending it.

Akar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
So when you have Deathmarks, and a few other unit special rules and formation special rules which rely on this distinction, it is important to make note of it.

It is important to make a note of it, but only as far as informing your opponent that they will be arriving by Deep Strike, so there is no surprises as to HOW the unit will be arriving from Reserves. The only WHERE they are arriving from is Reserves. It's the same place all Reserves are, regardless if they are arriving from Reserve, Deep Strike or Outflank. There is nothing allowing a player to create a special reserve place and put units there.

Then why make a note of calling it different? Why is it called "arriving from deep strike reserves"? In order to be "from" someplace, you need to be someplace else.

This someplace else is just a specially cordoned off area of Reserves, as far as I can read it. Again, it really isn't complicated, just apply what it says. There isn't anything hidden in this situation.

Akar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
However, as I mentioned earlier, the Living Tomb Formation does allow a Monolith to Deep Strike AND use its Eternity Gate in the same turn. It's expensive as all get out with the Obelisk Super-Useless, I mean Super-Heavy, being the centerpiece, to just deliver Deathmarks where you want them, especially if the Monoliths arrive after your Deathmarks.

Quickly going to jump in and note that the living Tomb Formation states that it must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Without separate instructions on creating this entity, we have to refer to what the BRB instructs us. Which is when placing the unit in Reserve, we must inform them that the Living Tomb will be arriving by Deep Strike. They're still only in Reserve. The only other exception is the Obelisk overrides the need to roll and automatically arrives on turn 2. Since the formation must arrive at the same time, they all auto arrive... from Reserve. (Not Deep Strike Reserve)

Did I ever state that arriving from Deep Strike Reserves is not arriving from Reserves? I allowed for the distinction between the two as there is a noted distinction between Reserves and Ongoing Reserves, even though Ongoing Reserves only differs from regular Reserves by timings.

Precision Arrival does not just state, "arriving from Reserves", though, nor does it allow for the Monoliths to automatically arrive, just the Obelisk.

Here is the full pertinent rule:

Precision Arrival: All units in this Formation must be placed into Deep Strike Reserve. Do not make Reserve Rolls for the Obelisk from this Formation; it automatically arrives on the controlling player’s second turn.

"It automatically arrives" is the rule's phrase. It has already been placed in Deep Strike Reserves, which means that, unless instructed otherwise by a codex rule, it may only arrive by Deep Strike.

The "it" is the Obelisk that is stated in the first part of the sentence. The sentence tells you not to make Reserve Rolls and then tells you why.

Akar wrote:Yes, the Living Tomb Formation does allow a Monolith to Deep Strike and use Eternity Gate, but there is a catch. You can only select a unit that is already in Reserve/Ongoing Reserve. The option to use a unit that's already on the table is unavailable when the Formation shows up on Turn 2. In this Scenario, you're going to have the Living Tomb arrive first. (It doesn't matter if the Deathmarks made their roll or not because the monoliths get to trigger the Eternity Gate immediately after they Deep Strike. The player has the option at this point in time to use the Eternity Gate on the Deathmarks. Where does he pull them from? He pulls them from Reserve, which is where they are. This replaces the condition which the controlling player informed his opponent that they would be arriving. As they are now no longer arriving by Deep Strike, they are no longer arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

Then you are not aware of how Deep Strike works with Transports, since you put so much faith in the FAQ :

Q: Do units disembarking from a Deep Striking Transport also count as entering play via Deep Strike?

A: Yes.

So, yeah, they would be arriving by Deep Strike, and since both came from Reserves, they arrived from Deep Strike Reserves.

Akar wrote:We roll for ALL Reserves at the start of the turn to determine which units are arriving (P.135 and P.162), before any of them arrive. So there isn't any rolling for one unit, and then deploying that unit, and then rolling the next, and so on. If the Deathmarks make their reserve roll on Turn 2 they've already started the process of arriving from Reserve. They are no longer in it. It a simultaneous event that gets resolved in the order of the controlling players choosing. No permission is given to change the arrival method at this stage, and they have already committed to Deep Strike Reserve as the controlling player has informed his opponent that is how they are arriving. His opponent actually has a rule that can force him to Deep Strike the Deathmarks. If the reserve roll is failed by the Deathmarks then they remain in Reserve. As they are still in Reserve when the Living Tomb Formation arrives, they are eligible for Eternity Gate.

Not true. The statement for rolling to see if a unit arrives from Reserves does not state that it is done all at the same time. Indeed, the fourth paragraph seems to state, otherwise:

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

When does a unit arrive from Reserves? When you successfully roll the dice. Admittedly, nothing in this sentence states, "immediately", either. So any assumption of such on either side, is just that, an assumption.

Akar wrote:Why it's borderline cheating. The controlling players wants all the benefits of having the Deathmarks a guaranteed turn 2 arrival, and none of the drawbacks. It's piggy backing one rule on to the other. It's an eerily similar scenario to when Tau players tried to use a Buffmander to apply to all units participating in 'Combined Fire'. In this case it's almost worse because you're using the Eternity Gate to auto bring on a failed Deathmark unit, do not actually Deep Strike the unit, then claim that it still did Deep Strike regardless if you passed or failed the Reserve roll.

It's not borderline cheating when you follow the rules. Cheating means not following the rules. Is it an easily exploited loophole? Yes. As demonstrated by the Buffmander concept, GW's ability to leave loopholes open would amaze tax code writers (but they do it deliberately).

Akar wrote:Personally, I'd allow it. As you said, it's a huge point sink for VERY little return. If I had to help a new player out, run an event, or run a shop, etc. I'd have to go with the rules and disallow it. If the OP really wants to have this discussion every time he springs it on someone the first time, that's his choice. I don't really think it matters with the next edition around the corner tbh.

If you disallow it, you are going against the written rules. That being said, every game is up to the game organizer to modify the rules as they see fit.

Rolsheen wrote: A unit of Deathmarks are in Reserve ready to Deep Strike onto the battlefield, a Lord decides "no I need them now" and uses the Eternity Gate, the Deathmarks Deep Strike out of the doorway therefore fulfilling all requirements for them to use Hunters from Hyperspace on Ceann as he waves his arms like a lunatic because he's on the wrong side of another set of rules.

The Deathmarks would not be Deep Striking out of the Gate, they would be Disembarking from the Gate. The rules for Disembarking are quite dissimilar to the rules for Deep Strike.

Ceann wrote:
Well your wrong about two things.

First, it cannot use gate the turn it deepstrike the effect happens at the start of turn when reserve rolls are made. Once you are deploying it cannot use the ability. There is also an faq that states as such.

Secondly the death marks must arrive from deep strike reserve. If they are in reserve as you say and deep strike reserve doesn't exist the the ability would never work.

Regardless of all that, he arrives automatically, he doesn't arrive from deep strike reserve. After he arrives automatically he is placed as though he disembarked.

Automatically does not = deep strike reserve

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves)" (page 162. You are placed in Reserves, but declare you will be deep striking, that is how they define Deep Strike Reserves. You are still in Reserves, and would be eligible for the Monolith's Eternity Gate. As he declared he was going to deep strike when he was put in Reserves, he was in the state they call Deep Strike Reserves - they never refer to it as separate from reserves or ongoing reserves. So, Deathmarks could be pulled from Reserves and deployed via the Monolith's Eternity Gate. As Deathmarks said they were going to deep strike when they were put in, they are arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, whether it is via deep strike or via being deployed by the Eternity Gate rules. The condition for Deep Strike Reserve was determined when they went into Reserves, not when they come out.