Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Scatbikes that being shifted over to Fast Attack wouldn't solve.

Yes there is something wrong with that. GW has already established Jetbikes as a core for one of the major Craftworlds and quite plentiful on other Craftworlds.
Some of use started Eldar with Jetbikes and have very few (if any) actual infantry. Jetbikes no longer being Troops would invalidate a major army type (which GW has confirmed will not happen) that has been around since WAAAAYY longer than they dreaded Scatterbike spam was a thing.

If anything, Troop Windriders will revert back to 1 per 3 and Elite Black Guardian Windriders will still be able to take all special weapons. This is the bare bones worst case scenario and we have already seen a detachment that allows tons of Elites. So Scatterbike spam will still exist in 8th. PERIOD. It just might be better balanced (fingers crossed)

However, I am glad to see the changes so far. If Scatters only wound Marines on 3+ and will likely hit on 4+ (they are Heavy and Relentless is likely gone) AND stripping HPs is gone, then Scatter lasers are in a MUCH more balanced place. Even if they stay "cheap" and spammable, they'll hardly be egregious.

Based on recent reveals, here's my new prediction:

Basic guardians/windriders are back to BS3. Black Guardians/windriders will be BS4.

Scatter Laser will stay S6, and will wound both Marines and Bikers on a 3+, Imperial Guard on a 2+, and almost all vehicles on a 5+.

Jetbikes won't ignore the BS penalty, with their benefit being a huge Movement rate that ignores terrain, 2d6 Advance, and will be able to shoot after Falling Back (which will be broken until they fix it in a year).

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I hope they're nerfed into the ground

This. I purposefully modeled my recently remodeled bikes with catapults and shuriken cannons one to three. Done. I like my cheese melted on round toast or cold and blue with an anchovy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yarium wrote:
Based on recent reveals, here's my new prediction:

Basic guardians/windriders are back to BS3. Black Guardians/windriders will be BS4.

Scatter Laser will stay S6, and will wound both Marines and Bikers on a 3+, Imperial Guard on a 2+, and almost all vehicles on a 5+.

Jetbikes won't ignore the BS penalty, with their benefit being a huge Movement rate that ignores terrain, 2d6 Advance, and will be able to shoot after Falling Back (which will be broken until they fix it in a year).

I like it.

Fingers crossed for nerfing them to balance.

they should be tuned down or appropriately costed, but the new edition partially does that if it removes ap completely and is just a 4 shot str 6 as it will be only wounding t3 models on a 2, t4 on 5's. I do agree they should probably lso see BS down to 3 so average 2 hits, and 1 wound on a space marine or necron per scatter bike. I do sort of like the movement they get as it makes for interesting games planning moves against it and where they could go/ so keeping units with clear sight lines to most places they can hide. they are still pretty fragile if they cannot break LOS

One other possibility that I didn't see mentioned. Scatbikes may receive the same treatment as Broadsides. In other words, they don't have the same Scatter Laser we see on the Vehicles, but a down-graded version, either in rate of fire, Str, or both.

Models are not invalidated, but perhaps, less desirable than before.

 Charistoph wrote:
One other possibility that I didn't see mentioned. Scatbikes may receive the same treatment as Broadsides. In other words, they don't have the same Scatter Laser we see on the Vehicles, but a down-graded version, either in rate of fire, Str, or both.

Models are not invalidated, but perhaps, less desirable than before.

I wish they had left the rail gun alone on broadsides, that nerf meant everybody took missiles as they were so much better. I am seriously hoping they change them back this edition. now sure the pathfinder rail gun option should probably stay the same str 6 ap1 (now rend -3 or whatever)

So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

50 pts a model and I'm good.

Martel732 wrote:

50 pts a model and I'm good.

Several things are wrong with that statement.
1) we have no idea what the points scale is. Windriders could be 50ppm, but Tac Marines could be 30ppm

2) so much of what 'broke' jetbikes before was their movement.
Jump-shot-jump and 36" turbo-boost could be gone (hopefully), and that dramatically puts Windriders back into the realm of "a few point more than a Marine is fine"

3) we don't know the stats for the Windrider.
We can be sure that the bike will have Twin-catapults and can upgrade those to Scatter or Shuricannon, but that's about it. They could have 4+ armour for all we know.

Personally, I am hoping that a basic Windrider is LESS than twice the points cost of a basic Marine, and does not double its own cost when upgraded.

-

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

I doubt scatter lasers will get an ap at all, likely will have scatter lasers at str 6 ap 0 4 shots and shurican cannons at str 6 ap -1 3 shots that way you have to choose extra shot or minus save

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

I doubt scatter lasers will get an ap at all, likely will have scatter lasers at str 6 ap 0 4 shots and shurican cannons at str 6 ap -1 3 shots that way you have to choose extra shot or minus save

I think he is referring to the TL shuri-catapults. With the new rule leak, TL now just double the shots and since shuri-catapult are currently Assault 2 TL on windriders....If the weapon profile does not change then a shuri-catapult will be dishing 4 shots and most likely at -1AP.

I have a feeling that scatterlaser and/or shuri-cannon will see significant changes. With scatterlaser being anti-infantry and shuri-cannon as anti-heavy infantry.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

I doubt scatter lasers will get an ap at all, likely will have scatter lasers at str 6 ap 0 4 shots and shurican cannons at str 6 ap -1 3 shots that way you have to choose extra shot or minus save

I am really starting to think that Shuriken weapon will have less Strength. S3 for Shuircats, S5 for Shuricannons, but both will have AP -1. Combine with the fact that they can both wound any target, this wound better represent the light weight discs thrown, which really shouldn't have the same penetrating power as a bolter projectile. Shurikens shred, they don't punch through.

I had originally suspected that they would get more shots too, but after seeing how Twin-linked works, I hope Cats stay Assault 2, because Assault 6 for the bikes would be RIDICULOUS!
Shuricannons can be assault 4, Str5, AP -1 though

Oh, btw, there is a chance that Scatter lasers become Heavy D6 like they were a few editions ago. I kinda hope not, but GW seems to like bringing back old rules lately.

-

I can see scatterlasers being S6 AP- D1 and shred (only when S>T) to keep its roll as an anti-infantry but barely scratches MC/Vehicle. Currently scatterlaser has a 5/6 chance of wounding a T4 and below per hit. With the addition of shred it will be 8/9 per hit which is only about a 5% increase. Also, with cover being +1 or 2 to AS infantry will still be harder to kill with scatterlaser compared to now. More interesting will be how will they change shuri-cannons!

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

50 pts a model and I'm good.

Several things are wrong with that statement.
1) we have no idea what the points scale is. Windriders could be 50ppm, but Tac Marines could be 30ppm

2) so much of what 'broke' jetbikes before was their movement.
Jump-shot-jump and 36" turbo-boost could be gone (hopefully), and that dramatically puts Windriders back into the realm of "a few point more than a Marine is fine"

3) we don't know the stats for the Windrider.
We can be sure that the bike will have Twin-catapults and can upgrade those to Scatter or Shuricannon, but that's about it. They could have 4+ armour for all we know.

Personally, I am hoping that a basic Windrider is LESS than twice the points cost of a basic Marine, and does not double its own cost when upgraded.

-

I'm hoping they are overcosted so I can go an edition without seeing them.

Just get rid of turbo boost and cap their move at 10"

Strength 6, -0 AP, heavy 4 doesn't scare me on that platform.

Martel732 wrote:

I'm hoping they are overcosted so I can go an edition without seeing them.

I don't even know how to respond to that without breaking several forum rules....

Pretty sure I saw someone working on a "salty" orkmoticon. I think that would be the proper response.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'm hoping they are overcosted so I can go an edition without seeing them.

I don't even know how to respond to that without breaking several forum rules....

You could, I don't know, expect to get into a fight when you start asking questions about scatterbikes? Remember all those Proposed Rules threads that disintegrated into arguments about whether scatterbikes were unfair in principle or fair in principle and undercosted in practice?

Damn straight I'm salty about those things. I'm SO sick of seeing them.

I'm only talking moderately overcosted here. Just enough that they're rarely used, but still usable.

Martel732 wrote:
Damn straight I'm salty about those things. I'm SO sick of seeing them.

I'm only talking moderately overcosted here. Just enough that they're rarely used, but still usable.

But over costing them would mean I get to bring less of them. I'd rather bring more that are mediocre than less that are still good.
What you are asking for is an invalidation of a play style that has been around for decades and is what got me personally started with Eldar.

Wishing them to be "so bad they'll be rarely used" is crossing the line. I would never wish the same against your Blood Angels, even if that is effectively what happened to them in 6th/7th.
I hope Blood Angels do well in 8th, as with every other army. I would hope you would wish the same for Windrider based armies.


-

Invalidation is too strong. I want them to NOT be the power choice, so *I* don't have to see them spammed. The best way to do that is just slightly overcost them. That makes them rare, but usable.

Martel732 wrote:
Invalidation is too strong. I want them to NOT be the power choice, so *I* don't have to see them spammed. The best way to do that is just slightly overcost them. That makes them rare, but usable.

I don't want them to be a "power choice" either, but I don't want them to be so expensive that bringing around 20 (which is about how many I own including characters) becomes such a liability that the army is crap.
Overcosting them is NOT the best way. Making them better balanced in the 8th system (so likely on 4+ save, no more Jump-shoot-jump or ridiculously high Advance move, etc) can make them more balanced WITHOUT making the cost a lot.
We already know that Scatter lasers (assuming they stay as they are, Str6, 4 shots AP0) will probably have -1 to hit on moving Bikes and will only wound T4 on 3+. They also won't be as good at popping vehicles because vehicles now have armour saves and way more wounds than their previous HPs.

Those changes alone make Scatterbikes much less of a "power choice". We can also guess that Shuricannons will have AP -1. So Scatterbikes may have better internal balance amongst the other choices the unit can take.
But slapping +10 or +15 ppm 'just because' doesn't make them balanced. It means you can take less of them.....which invalidates the play style.

I should also add that if we use their 7th ed stat as reference, 20ppm would be reasonable (30/35ppm with weapon upgrade), but it sounds like you want them to 50ppm, which is ridiculous

-

Am betting jet bikes can Shoot,Advance (In any direction) and Charge in the same turn.

So, it will look like:

Bike moves 10", Shoots, Advances 1d6", Charges 2d6"

Or
Bike moves 10" (From behind rock), Shoots, Advances 1d6"(Back behind rock)

Let eldar be mid tier at best. Then I could actually play more of them.

Simple....move them to Fast Attack choice. Then if you really want to play that Saim Hann themed force, you choose the datasheet that has Fast as troop options (sure, you may lose some command points, but you're choosing a unique organization). Same would work for Ravenwing. There is absolutely no reason to fill them as Troop choices.
Scatter laser probably still 4 shots, but S6 is no longer devastating to T4 and there will be no AP adjustment. Shuricannons at a -1 AP will make them a more viable choice (I'm a huge fan of shuri weapons in general)

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Invalidation is too strong. I want them to NOT be the power choice, so *I* don't have to see them spammed. The best way to do that is just slightly overcost them. That makes them rare, but usable.

I don't want them to be a "power choice" either, but I don't want them to be so expensive that bringing around 20 (which is about how many I own including characters) becomes such a liability that the army is crap.
Overcosting them is NOT the best way. Making them better balanced in the 8th system (so likely on 4+ save, no more Jump-shoot-jump or ridiculously high Advance move, etc) can make them more balanced WITHOUT making the cost a lot.
We already know that Scatter lasers (assuming they stay as they are, Str6, 4 shots AP0) will probably have -1 to hit on moving Bikes and will only wound T4 on 3+. They also won't be as good at popping vehicles because vehicles now have armour saves and way more wounds than their previous HPs.

Those changes alone make Scatterbikes much less of a "power choice". We can also guess that Shuricannons will have AP -1. So Scatterbikes may have better internal balance amongst the other choices the unit can take.
But slapping +10 or +15 ppm 'just because' doesn't make them balanced. It means you can take less of them.....which invalidates the play style.

I should also add that if we use their 7th ed stat as reference, 20ppm would be reasonable (30/35ppm with weapon upgrade), but it sounds like you want them to 50ppm, which is ridiculous

-

It was hyperbole for sure. Currently, they are worth 37 ppm model. Maybe with 8th ed changes, they will be a true 27 ppm model, but that is ruined if they make them 15 ppm.

Did you see the "power" for the Rubric Marines? GW said that untis will have points cost for Match play, but for free/narrative play, they have been given "Power levels".
4 Rubrics + Sorceror is Power 8 no matter how they are equipped. adding 5 models adds +6 up to 20 total models for Power 24 total.

Super weird. It doesn't look like Windriders will have to pay anything different for Scatter lasers. 5 Scatterbike will be the same Power level as 5 Shuricat Bikes

-

I don't do free/narrative play, so i don't have to care about power.

 Galef wrote:
Did you see the "power" for the Rubric Marines? GW said that untis will have points cost for Match play, but for free/narrative play, they have been given "Power levels".
4 Rubrics + Sorceror is Power 8 no matter how they are equipped. adding 5 models adds +6 up to 20 total models for Power 24 total.

Super weird. It doesn't look like Windriders will have to pay anything different for Scatter lasers. 5 Scatterbike will be the same Power level as 5 Shuricat Bikes

-

I doubt they will give open play the every one a heavy weapon option, I am betting on it being an option in the competitive rules. of course I have no proof of it being that way just an old man's hunch