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 Frazzled wrote:
Someone teaching potato farming a spy? Is he putting secret microphones in the spuds?

Its pretty good cover for a spy. They get to see the land, potatoes don't grow in Pyongyang or other cleaned up facade cities, which is as far as most tourists and businessmen can go. Potatoes grow on collective farms, and to get to enough of them to make the trip worthwhile you have to drive through a lot of North Korea.

Even if he isn't a spy, when a potato advisor or equivalent gets home someone from Langley would probably want to sit down with him for an evening dinner and drinks and be quietly debriefed on what he saw.

Credit where credit is due, the north Koran government is concerned about the food situation, and is looking for any fix they can implement that doesn't interfere with the centralised system. A few years a
back the North Koreans were interested in buying Flemish giants, a breed of super-rabbit about the size of a large dog. Bunnies breed like, well, rabbits, and do well for themselves easily enough. As an experimental meatstock the idea has merit. Potatoes are the most effective subsistence crop in terms of food energy per area of cultivation, so the North Korean government are again wise in wanting to learn whatever they can to maximise potato production. Hence the opportunity.

Yes I could well imagine an advisor on potato farming over from Europe or the US could well be a spy. However with 'expos' this has always been the case. Usually no actual 'spying' occurs, instead the businessman or trainer sent over is asked by his government to pay attention and observe, and then get debriefed on arrival. This was how it was done in the cold war. It would be plainly stupid to carry around a camera as a western businessman on an 'expo' exchange in the cold war Soviet Union. They had minders all the time, but those who were sent over were always observant chaps with a good grasp of the language and keen vision. This applied to those who came over, and also enough of the concert musicians the Soviets sent on tours around western cities.
All in all anyone under those conditions was as likely as not to be engaged in some sort of casual espionage, normally as an invitee they are expelled or are refused from source. If the expertise is required the adviser is let in, shown as little as possible and then sent home, with everyone knowing they would be debriefed on arrival.

There is no reason why North Korea coulod not get potato farming expertise from a more neutral of friendly source,like China or Cuba, but if they get some from the USA they should expect the advisor will be talking to Langley on the return home and should not get butt hurt if it appears this is what they will do.

 Orlanth wrote:


Credit where credit is due, the north Koran government is concerned about the food situation, and is looking for any fix they can implement that doesn't interfere with the centralised system. A few years a
back the North Koreans were interested in buying Flemish giants, a breed of super-rabbit about the size of a large dog. Bunnies breed like, well, rabbits, and do well for themselves easily enough. As an experimental meatstock the idea has merit. Potatoes are the most effective subsistence crop in terms of food energy per area of cultivation, so the North Korean government are again wise in wanting to learn whatever they can to maximise potato production. Hence the opportunity.

Well, if they had any experience in actual rabbit farming they'd see that nothing beats poultry in the meat gain per kg of feed (well, some species of fish may)

Rabbits are also very prone to devastating diseases, and far more research is poured into poultry or pork so they're much safer to invest into.

 sebster wrote:
Countries don't get to just walk away from their citizens when they're jailed overseas. Hell, even if they've actually done something wrong, the government is still obligated to make sure they're supported through the legal process.

This idea that you can just decide 'well you shouldn't have been there' and do nothing about their detention is a bit incredible, to be honest.

Actually countries do that all the time, its the default position of the late 20th/21st century.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

and gives legal resources to the defendant so he can mount a real defense.

Que???

In North Korea they imprison three generations of an offender. If you are born in prison you stay in prison.

 Frazzled wrote:

 sebster wrote:
Countries don't get to just walk away from their citizens when they're jailed overseas. Hell, even if they've actually done something wrong, the government is still obligated to make sure they're supported through the legal process.

This idea that you can just decide 'well you shouldn't have been there' and do nothing about their detention is a bit incredible, to be honest.

Actually countries do that all the time, its the default position of the late 20th/21st century.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

and gives legal resources to the defendant so he can mount a real defense.

Que???

In North Korea they imprison three generations of an offender. If you are born in prison you stay in prison.

The outcome of a case in NK is what the government decides at end of day.
All the fancy lawyers will not save you if they decide your guilty.

The supreme leaders word is final. So of he decides to make a example. Your a example.

 sebster wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
This is North Korea we're talking about here. The captives in question might as well be on another whole plane of existence.


If you get thrown in the pokey, you are screwed. Unless Krazy Kim wants to extort something from your government. Then, you might get released after a thrilling and exciting stay at a Happy Camp, and spending some quality time with those nice Nork interrogators from the State Security Department of North Korea.

North Korea is a very gak place and its government is closer to the mafia than a real government, but even still your description is fairly, um, hyper-exaggerated? Something like that.

Anyhow, North Korea is crazy but that doesn't mean all norms are surrendered. Diplomats can still work to make sure the prosecution makes formal charges, and gives legal resources to the defendant so he can mount a real defense. And they can work to make sure that if any of the above doesn't happen the person doesn't linger interminably in a NK jail.

As far as despotic regimes who sometimes nab westerners for no good reason go, NK is actually better than most. After a few months NK have had had their fun and their sense of feeling important, and they let them go.

You're right. I'm probably hyper-exaggerating to a large extent. But the jist of it isn't far off. "Best Korea" is Orwellian as all hell in it's nature. To the point where people living there, being indoctrinated from cradle to grave, actually believe what the government shovels out to them. With the rampant isolationism, they either don't know any better, or are very good at play acting so they don't end up dead or in a camp. I'm banking on true belief, with a few figuring out that things aren't hackensack in a handbasket. Those are the ones (the folks that start doubting Glorious Juche and Suryeong) that you see brave the dangers to defect to the South or Japan.


It's interesting that you bring up a mafia comparison. Some observers, including defectors in the know, have said that State Security wasn't nothing more than a "hollow shell". It's departments (called "Rooms" in another creepy Orwellian manner), are focused on carrying out the agendas of various Party bosses and military bigwigs, and covering up their activities. Much like the Old Mafia and La Cosa Nostra back in the day, nobody in the West has any idea of the structure and location of it's facilities or the identities of all of it's major players. It is known that the agency has had a long period of no central leadership via a Minister of State Security. During those period (1987 -2011), it reported directly to Dear Leader and the WPK's Organization and Guidance Department. That would explain how it became a defacto "mafia", considering Party hacks in the OGD were chosen by how good they kissed Kim Jong-il's fat ass, and Jong-il's childish incompetence.

 sebster wrote:
Countries don't get to just walk away from their citizens when they're jailed overseas. Hell, even if they've actually done something wrong, the government is still obligated to make sure they're supported through the legal process.

This idea that you can just decide 'well you shouldn't have been there' and do nothing about their detention is a bit incredible, to be honest.

I think you're extrapolating out something I didn't say. While I did observe that if you decide to go to North Korea, in 2017, you are the author of your own misfortune, I didn't advocate leaving them there without any attempt to rescue them.

I guess I'm just baffled as to why anyone would put themselves in such a position, where a really negative outcome is the most likely outcome of your actions: best case scenario you become a mouthpiece for propaganda, worst and statistically high case, you spend the rest of your substantially shortened life breaking rocks and hoping to see a slow-moving bug you can eat.

 Ouze wrote:
I guess I'm just baffled as to why anyone would put themselves in such a position, where a really negative outcome is the most likely outcome of your actions: best case scenario you become a mouthpiece for propaganda, worst and statistically high case, you spend the rest of your substantially shortened life breaking rocks and hoping to see a slow-moving bug you can eat.

You seem to be assuming everybody who goes there gets arrested or even majority.

I imagine almost no Chinese get arrested.