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Im happy so far with these changes!

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!

OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

Relax man! Wait until you see the weapons that hit for 2d6 wounds!

Unlikely. Biggest guns in AoS are doing d6 Wounds. If anything does 2d6 Wounds I'd expect it to be Destroyer weapons that roll a 6 to wound.


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 Luciferian wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!

OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

I dub 8e The Gauss Edition. Gauss for everyone!

and we get armywide shred by the looks of Shadow War. Fingers crossed anyway.

 Klowny wrote:


and we get armywide shred by the looks of Shadow War. Fingers crossed anyway.

Sorry to disappoint you but I wouldn't take SWA as an indication of anything that will be coming in 8th.

Assuming Scatter lasers stay S6, this means they no longer wound T4 Marines on 2+, but rather 3+.
I know quite a few here on Dakka will be quite pleased with this change.

As an Eldar player, I am happy with it too. It means that Scatterbikes are not likely to be as bad as they were in 7th, yet being able to wound T7-T11 on 5+ will still be quite good.
it also means they aren't likely to get a huge price increase (at least relative to however the new points costs for everything will be).

But this SEVERLY increases the overall effectiveness of every armies small arms fire. No longer does a unit's Bolters sit there doing nothing because the Melta gun was the only one that could hurt the unit's target.
Now you have options, shoot those Bolters at the same target as the Melta and maybe drop a wound, or shoot them at a different target.

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 Luciferian wrote:

 Klowny wrote:


and we get armywide shred by the looks of Shadow War. Fingers crossed anyway.

Sorry to disappoint you but I wouldn't take SWA as an indication of anything that will be coming in 8th.

Yea its probably wishful thinking, but would be a nice workaround to the gauss rule, seeing as now everyone gets gauss

Breng77 wrote:
I cannot see missiles getting D6 damage, I expect them to be 2 modes as now one doing S8 D3 wounds, the other S4 and d3 hits or something similar. It is also possible they will not do extra wounds at all. As a general rule S got a little worse against lower toughnesses, but better against higher toughnesses. For instance a S6 gun used to wound T4 on a 2+, but now does so at a 3+. But used to wound T8 on a 6+ but now does it on a 5+. Depending on the common toughness values in the new edition Things like bolters got a decent buff in wounding high T models

If I had to bet, missile launchers will do a flat 2 or 3 damage: reliability and flexibility, in exchange for peak effectiveness against targets. They sorta have a jack-of-all-trades role, but so do both the plasma cannon and the grav-cannon, and to balance that out, it'd make sense for missile launchers to be the reliable option (but not as good as when the really focused stuff rolls well).

nordsturmking wrote:
I like the fact that wounding on 2+ is not that easy any more. But a Bolter wounds a dreadnaught on 5+ now.

One problem with that is that range of dice range is shrank which is not neccessarily good. It leads more of samey. Just look at AOS where 3+ to 5+ are soooo dominant results.

And as for bolter vs dred...Well I will never ever EVER in 7th ed shoot with small arm vs tank. Well bolter vs rear armour is fine but dreadnought stomping toward? I rather refuse to fire and lose the game.

I don't like the new to-wound chart. I was fine with Lasguns being unable to kill Land Raiders. Real tanks better be at least T8, if not T10.

I also don't like split fire everywhere. I liked the fact that weapons had to be in batteries of a kind for effectiveness.

I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.

Things might die quicker with these changes, but alternatively a lot of stuff is going to die slower. My Harlequins will like the boost of not being wounded on 2+ from Str 5 weaponry. Space Marines are only wounded on a 3+ from Str 6 and 7. That's a big change.

Youn wrote:
I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.

I don't know about that. Sure Scatter lasers will wound T4 Marines on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but they wound Dreads and even larger vehicles on 5+ now.
Knights are almost assuredly not going to exceed T11, so a mass of Scatter laser fire can make a good dent in those 20+ wounds it has, whereas before they couldn't even tough the front AV.
I, for one, see this as a better balance rather than an all out nerf. Scatterbikes will still have their place, but now so will Shuricannon bikes (which seem likely to be AP -1)

This makes sense.

You are a TAC squad with 10 marines total. There is a plasma gun, a combi plasma, and a lascannon.

To your left, are 6 grots.
Directly in front of you are 3 Nobz.
In the distance, a Morkanaut is coming over a hill, obscuring the setting sun.

Suddenly it doesn't hurt you to have some variety in your TAC squad. In fact, it actually helps you.

Going back to 2nd ed. (again), the "split fire" rule is old school. I think it would be best served though as splitting fire by type of weapon (not splitting all guns, everywhere since you'll end up gaming the system).

Why shoot at one unit if you can split all of your tac marines to shoot five units, hoping to inflict a wound and draw a morale test (which they might miraculously fail and suffer more wounds).

Splitting heavy or special weapons off though, makes sense.

 Elbows wrote:

Why shoot at one unit if you can split all of your tac marines to shoot five units, hoping to inflict a wound and draw a morale test (which they might miraculously fail and suffer more wounds).

Sounds like an actually tactical choice available to players now. This really isn't any different either from shooting a unit just enough to cause a morale test and hoping they run off the board.

 Galef wrote:

Youn wrote:
I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.

I don't know about that. Sure Scatter lasers will wound T4 Marines on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but they wound Dreads and even larger vehicles on 5+ now.
Knights are almost assuredly not going to exceed T11, so a mass of Scatter laser fire can make a good dent in those 20+ wounds it has, whereas before they couldn't even tough the front AV.
I, for one, see this as a better balance rather than an all out nerf. Scatterbikes will still have their place, but now so will Shuricannon bikes (which seem likely to be AP -1)

hope they wont let play "mass" of scatters, that's the only way to really "nerf" that weapon.

 Elbows wrote:
Why shoot at one unit if you can split all of your tac marines to shoot five units, hoping to inflict a wound and draw a morale test (which they might miraculously fail and suffer more wounds).

Because you want to maximize damage you cause to the enemy? With the morale system of 8th edition if you split fire like that you _kill less enemies_ than if you had concentrated fire.

Concentration of fire was better in 7th ed as well and 8th edition just adds _more_ reasons to concentrate.

Your enemy WANTS you to split tac marines against five units. He's hoping, indeed even begging you to split like that. He wants you to kill 1 model from 5 units each rather than 5 models from 1 unit(especially if that's ~10 sized unit). Sure occasionally you might cause lucky result and kill more but in average you WILL kill less. That's the way morale system has been designed.

 Marmatag wrote:
This makes sense.

You are a TAC squad with 10 marines total. There is a plasma gun, a combi plasma, and a lascannon.

To your left, are 6 grots.
Directly in front of you are 3 Nobz.
In the distance, a Morkanaut is coming over a hill, obscuring the setting sun.

Suddenly it doesn't hurt you to have some variety in your TAC squad. In fact, it actually helps you.

It doesn't make sense for a gun battery to have one antitank gun, one antiair gun, and one machinegun, though.

Split fire, I think, makes it seem more like a collection of individuals than a squad.

Well, If it now works as everyone gets split fire, it might be worth me putting my Thunderfire cannons as squadrons of 3 now.

 blackmage wrote:

hope they wont let play "mass" of scatters, that's the only way to really "nerf" that weapon.

GW has already confirmed that everyone's armies will be playable and since the Windrider kits comes with enough scatter lasers for every bike, this isn't going away.
Even if they make Elite Black Guardian Windirders the only unit that can have all Scatters (and thus restrict the Troops to 1 per 3), we already have seen a detachment that is heavy on Elites.

But I do think that changing the To-wound chart as it will be in 8th combined with the fact that Scatters are heavy and Relentless is likely gone, and vehicles will have more than twice the wounds as they once had HPs AND they have Armour saves now, Scatterbikes will be far from the "auto-win" units that they were in 7th.

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 Deadshot wrote:
Is anyone else worried that they're just pandering now? It seems like everything people have been demanding for years is coming to fruition, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, its just a worry in that whatever people ask they will receive, which is a terrible idea. Not everything people have been demanding is even close to a good idea. Some is great, but others are just bad ideas in general and I'm worried about seeing all of the terrible ones alongside the good.

Its a big problem I hope GW can recognize quickly. Sadly a lot of people in the hobby are incredibly lazy and don't try to adjust their tactics to deal with new things (scatbikes is a huge example) and then just whine to GW until it gets changed. So when GW opens up the community feedback page its going to be flooded with tools that couldn't get out of a wet paper bag without being told how 30 times and people that try and suggest the stupidiest game mechanics possible. Essentially the vocal minority is going to bitch until GW does something about it, which in this day and age needs to desperately go away.


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 blackmage wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Youn wrote:
I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.

I don't know about that. Sure Scatter lasers will wound T4 Marines on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but they wound Dreads and even larger vehicles on 5+ now.
Knights are almost assuredly not going to exceed T11, so a mass of Scatter laser fire can make a good dent in those 20+ wounds it has, whereas before they couldn't even tough the front AV.
I, for one, see this as a better balance rather than an all out nerf. Scatterbikes will still have their place, but now so will Shuricannon bikes (which seem likely to be AP -1)

hope they wont let play "mass" of scatters, that's the only way to really "nerf" that weapon.

Or and I know this is crazy, stop sucking at the game and change your tactics. Seriously if you cant deal with scat bikes you are the one with the problem.

 TheIronCrow wrote:


Blah blah git gud scrubs I iz MLG statterbikez spammer.

Haha, no.

 TheIronCrow wrote:
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 blackmage wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Youn wrote:
I guess that is one way of nerfing Scatterlasers, Assualt cannons and Psycannons.

I don't know about that. Sure Scatter lasers will wound T4 Marines on a 3+ instead of a 2+, but they wound Dreads and even larger vehicles on 5+ now.
Knights are almost assuredly not going to exceed T11, so a mass of Scatter laser fire can make a good dent in those 20+ wounds it has, whereas before they couldn't even tough the front AV.
I, for one, see this as a better balance rather than an all out nerf. Scatterbikes will still have their place, but now so will Shuricannon bikes (which seem likely to be AP -1)

hope they wont let play "mass" of scatters, that's the only way to really "nerf" that weapon.

Or and I know this is crazy, stop sucking at the game and change your tactics. Seriously if you cant deal with scat bikes you are the one with the problem.

For sure I can deal with scatterbikes with a tailored list. With a sufficient amount of list tailoring, you can beat anything.

But with a list that can also adequately fight the Flying Circus, Gunline Guard, Riptidewing, and the Gladius? Probably not.

 Galef wrote:

GW has already confirmed that everyone's armies will be playable
-

I think they said they'd have rules for all models--I don't believe they promised every army would be playable as they are not (in terms of playstyle) or that every option available now would be available in 8E.

Fantastic change to the to-wound chart that should see a lot more weapon variety on the field. It squishes values together a bit and makes less clean breakpoints like we had in the past. Marines got a lot tougher against things in strength ranges that used to murder them. Massed fire from guard and other low-strength hordes got a very effective boost. And all the changes combine to make vehicles a lot more reliable on the field even if they can get wounded by small arms.

But I am just going to give one hearty yeah for fire splitting being once more back in the rules. I've hated the change since it cropped up in 3rd Edition, it has been the constant thing I've always wanted removed from following editions. It has never made a lick of sense, it promoted mono-specialization of units and along with the way to-wound and AP worked led to a stagnant outlook on which weapons were good and bad.

Modifiers (sweet sweet modifiers), a better to-wound chart, multi-wound weapons, fire splitting, streamlined close combat with more player interaction. I know folks want to lay a lot of this at the feet of AoS, but this is sounding more and more like the cleaned-up version of 2nd Edition I wanted back when 3rd was released. Things are looking up for once.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
I know folks want to lay a lot of this at the feet of AoS, but this is sounding more and more like the cleaned-up version of 2nd Edition I wanted back when 3rd was released. Things are looking up for once.

Agreed, 8th looks like a refutation of everything that has happened since 3rd. It's a reboot back to 2.5, if you will.

Ah, now, we just need the 2nd edition Vortex psychic power.. and All is fixed!


Worried about that Imperial Knight? Ultimate force Vortex! Fixed....

A str3 lasgun should not damage a t7 vehicle/mc.

Youn wrote:
Ah, now, we just need the 2nd edition Vortex psychic power.. and All is fixed!


Worried about that Imperial Knight? Ultimate force Vortex! Fixed....

Ah man, I remember the template. Good times.

secretForge wrote:
Agreed, the split fire thing is nice (although yet another buff to shooting), but wont really effect much more than a few imperial units.

Not entirely true. They did not specify that each unit picks a gun and then every model must fire that gun at a single target. If every unit has full split fire and you can chose how any shots are fired at whatever target then huge blobs of infantry just became much more versatile.

It's not 10 termagants with devourers shooting 30 shots at a single unit of 5 space marines. Now it's a blob of 30 termagants with devourers shooting 45 shots at one unit and 45 at another spreading that dakka around.

This could be a big boost to counter the effectiveness of MSU.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!

OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

Relax man! Wait until you see the weapons that hit for 2d6 wounds!

Unlikely. Biggest guns in AoS are doing d6 Wounds. If anything does 2d6 Wounds I'd expect it to be Destroyer weapons that roll a 6 to wound.


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 Luciferian wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
Stuff is going to be removed from the table much much faster!

OMG! A bolter can kill a Dreadnought in 400 shots! The sky is LITERALLY falling!

I dub 8e The Gauss Edition. Gauss for everyone!

The weapons that do 2d6 wounds in sigmar are anti-infantry cannons that only hit that hard against larger(10+) squads.



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 CadianGateTroll wrote:
A str3 lasgun should not damage a t7 vehicle/mc.

But it's okay that it can damage a T6 one? Why?


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 3orangewhips wrote:

 Galef wrote:

GW has already confirmed that everyone's armies will be playable
-

I think they said they'd have rules for all models--I don't believe they promised every army would be playable as they are not (in terms of playstyle) or that every option available now would be available in 8E.

They did say that the FoC systems would be flexible enough to build just about any army you could want(with fluff-based limitations)