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 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:

Cauthon wrote:
I don't think "casual" kharadron lists will do well, even in casual environments.

I've found they do fairly well, actually. My very basic list (5 Thunderers with Mortars, 5 Thunderers with Aethercannons, three units of 10 Arkanauts, an Admiral, a Khemist and one of each Skyvessel) has done well against other casual lists. Stormcast, Orc, and Death forces have all been defeated. However I was defeated by some different Stormcast, Empire with Celestial Hurricanums, and Sylvaneth. We're not OP, but we do well against non-cheese lists.

Also, anyone got opinions on the Aethermatic Volleygun? I'm not too keen on it because of it's 5+ hit, but there's another Kharadron player in my area who says it's comparable to the other options for special weapons due to it's high number of shots.

Seconded on Kharadrons seeming pretty balanced (mortar cheese put aside). That they don't look to do well at tournaments is a good thing, since AoS tourney's are only topped by cheese lists atm. As for the volleygun, the issue is that you are giving up the skyhook; a weapon great for sniping characters or putting wounds on monsters in a unit that gets +1 to hit those things. The volleygun overlaps with, and is worse than, other weapons you almost certainly have a decent number of; carbines (on skyvessels) and the basic shooting weapons on endrinriggers/skywardens.


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Cauthon wrote:
That doesn't sound competitive to me at all. What happens when you play (defensive spec'd) stormcast and can't get through their armor? Or Destruction who only let you get (hopefully) 1 round of shooting in before they on you en masse? Or slyvaneth/ tzeentch who just going to blow away your Khemists.

If I was going to be doing a gunline I'd use Mhornar to reroll all those high damage shots that only hit on 4's.

I'd rather shoot with drill cannons (endrinriggers) than mortars, Aethercannons too.

Not that mortars are bad, you just definitely need the diversity imo.

Someone who was trying to be competitive with mortar spam would likely break allegiance to take 1-2 hurricanums; bonuses to hit, spellcasting, and mortal wound output. At that point it would basically require a cheese list to beat like the Kurnoth or Skyfire spam you mentioned. Though realistically, saying that a list loses to those isn't really saying anything since they are tournament-topping builds due to the cheese level.

I will say that on the volley gun is that it's a weapon that needs to be taken in numbers. with 3 Arkanauts with volley guns you have 18 shots suddenly coming from a small unit Granted this is similar to 40k Ork Shooting but yeah this is pretty massive coming from 3 models.. And you still have 14 shots coming from the other guys. The fact alone is a good scare tactic in itself.

They certainly aren't bad per say. Against a 4+ save we are looking at an average of 2 damage (3 vs character/monster), compared to 1.7(2.2) from the skyhooks. On paper they are pretty balanced. Despite the damage difference, skyhooks can reliably snipe backfield heroes with their 24" range, and can do so even against 3+ save heroes. But the deciding factor is the Khemist buff; skyhooks literally double in effectiveness.

All in all it boils things down to two questions; do you need the rend, and how likely is the unit to receive a khemist buff.

Sidenote: I refer to my skyhook-armed models as "skyhookers" and when shooting with them I say "the skyhookers turn their lusty gaze upon [target], attempting to penetrate it with their hard shafts"

I call it drunk fishing

I think a Volley Gun team would be anti-infantry, They can shred light troops pretty well and even heavy armored troops are going to feel the pain before they decide to reach them.

A Volley Gun Company can also hold down forward objectives pretty well, The gun does have a longer threat range than the pistol and if your opponent tries to send a small group to contest, it won't be easy.

I think all three options for Arkanauts are viable in their own way, though the Skyhook and Skypike are more viable for a mix-and-match scenario than the Volley Gun, which I think really shines in a more specialist role.

A note on Brokk:

Like many, I thought Brokk was overcosted for what he does. But consider the following:

-Grudgebearer adds +1A
-Khemist buff for his saw +1A
-3+ to gain 3 dmg instead of d3
-2+ to cause d3 mortal wounds when charging
-Bring him in Zilfin for a 37" threat range (possibly 43" if he can benefit from his own command ability. Breaks down like this. Zilfin skyvessel can move in the hero phase once per game. 10" for a frigate. Disembark 3" and Brokk can move 12". Now he can possibly run and still charge 2d6 with his command ability.
-Once there that's potentially 18 damage at -2 rend plus d3 mortal wounds, re-rolling all 1s against his preferred targets (heroes and monsters).
-If you ask me, that's a pretty darn reliable character assassin. And because he flies, he's difficult to move block.

Thoughts?

He can't get grudgebearer since that is a command trait, which can't go on named characters. His command ability is nearly worthless anyway, because running would still prevent any shooting and there are very few instances where a Kharadron unit would want to forgo shooting in favor of an extra d6" of movement. This is particularly true for him. So you won't want him as your general, and realistically any Kharadron army at the moment will want two khemists and another hero as the general. Coupled with minimum battleline and a frigate puts the army at ~1300 points before getting any serious hitting power beyond Brokk.

But honestly the biggest nail in his coffin is that for 30 more points you can take 9 endrinriggers with 6 saws and 3 skyhooks which will shoot better, get in melee more reliably, and out outperform him in melee once the khemist buff doubles their number of saw attacks.

Is anyone else thinking that a unit of 12 Endrinriggers with 2-3 Grappling Hooks is pretty much essential to a competitive list like Khemists are? I think on balance they're better than Thunderers, regardless of type.

I wouldn't say essential but it is extremely strong. Though honestly I'd go for 4 skyhooks since with a 12" move they are unlikely to need the massive mobility of a grapnel, and with 4 skyhooks you are likely to get the 1d6" extra while also dealing damage. The shorter distance is made up for by flexibility in movement too, since the restriction of 'ends closer to a harpooned unit' is very easy to work with.

I think the skyhooks are better than the Grapnel Launchers honestly, since the thing does require you to target something with 10 wounds or more, That and it trades damage for mobility

The Skyriggers in general are basically Duradin Calvary (Probably the last thing people think of when it comes to dwarves) They're a small unit made to be shock troops, you move to the flanks and you damage before flying in to finish the job. The only problem is, Why Skywardens?

From my general standpoint Endrinriggers are basically Skywardens+1, they have better range with their guns and their melee is more reliable than the skypikes... Also the Skywardens Gimmick of retreating with the skybombs is pretty moot since you sacrifice shooting their short ranged pistols. They only seem to be valuable if you want a cheap option for endrinriggers, or you need them for a battalion, Which is a shame because the wardens give off the whole "dwarven knight" feel...

As for Brokk... I think my issue is that he's basically an admiral and a endrinmaster rolled into a flying balloon and you strapped as many guns you could into one dwarf. It's cool and while I'm not sure If I'm going to bring him into any matches, he looks like he's the perfect tool to just go in and bash people. The problem is that as a general, he's really lackluster. He doesn't bring anything extra other than another gun, where the Admiral at least can hold a line and buff a ship... So really he just seems like a fun guy to bring, and probably for future scenarios if the Kharadron are able to make another appearance... but in regular play he's not going to be a big game changer.

Skywardens aren't bad at all, but they are outshined by the endrinriggers. This is mainly because the Khemist is kind-of OP, and his buff is spectacular on the endrinriggers' melee weapon. But for outflanking units that are going to be out of buff range and away from vessels skywardens are a solid option since you aren't paying the extra tax for the repair ability.

That actually does sell them much better, kinda have them as a flanking/wizard hunter, group, or have them target war machines... they're pretty fast for what they do and they're not as big as calvary so it's not as noticable as the GIANT SKYSHIPS HOVERING OVER YOUR HEADS that's also loaded with a bunch of angry dwarves with a lot of guns.