Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm pretty sure it'll hurt their competitors much like 4th ed. D&D hurt it's competitors....oh wait....yeah not hurt...invigorate. That's the word. Because so far the new rules kinda look simplistic and sucky like AoS. The new no template stuff is awful. I mean have you seen the battlecannon's stats. Guard are going to get hosed, horde armies, hosed, still not convinced the new flamer rules is that good. RUN IS STILL A FETHING THING AS IS OVERWATCH! GOD ****ING MOTHER****ING BULLMULARKY!

Ahem....no armor values because little Timmy can't do math anymore. A very stupid system where 'everything can hurt everything'

Also Plague Marines and Space Marines in the starter....-_-....Booooooooooo. Boooooooo I say. Oh and the new 'power level' thing is dumb as hell too.

Why is it so hard to see, that what would draw people back is clean up the special rules, and roll back EVERYTHING to 3rd. ed. Put a new coat of paint and boom you're done. Don't change a thing after that for about 5-7 years before the next edition.

The only competitor who needs to worry about 8th ed / New GW hurting them is one that built its business of the back of providing games that were 'not GW built as close as damnit' - for instance, bringing out a football Style board game when GW had stopped doing Blood Bowl, or a Necromunda style game, or a Warhammer Quest game perhaps....

Now, if I was that company? I'd be worried.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Yeah, if you don't think X-Wing is a direct competitor, you really don't understand how many gamers think.

It's a sci-fi miniatures game that is a lot cheaper and easier to get into than 40K and has a much stronger IP backing.

It's as much of a direct competitor as board games, CTG and video games. It's an alternative but it's not a competitor.

morgoth wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Yeah, if you don't think X-Wing is a direct competitor, you really don't understand how many gamers think.

It's a sci-fi miniatures game that is a lot cheaper and easier to get into than 40K and has a much stronger IP backing.

It's as much of a direct competitor as board games, CTG and video games. It's an alternative but it's not a competitor.

Aaaaaaand we're back on this roundabout. End thread.

morgoth wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Yeah, if you don't think X-Wing is a direct competitor, you really don't understand how many gamers think.

It's a sci-fi miniatures game that is a lot cheaper and easier to get into than 40K and has a much stronger IP backing.

It's as much of a direct competitor as board games, CTG and video games. It's an alternative but it's not a competitor.

If it's an alternative, then it's competition. Your dudes are put on the board, you roll dice and you try to beat the other guy. They compete for the same people interested in the same kind of thing.you need to pull your head out of the sand

Fundamentally, your own argument is based on the premise that 8th is amazing. What happens if it's not 'all that, and a bag of chips'?

Chances are, some people who don't currently play and will like it and will come back, others who currently play, or don't will dislike it or will have no interest and won't. Gw is gw after all.

I doubt that the other main players in the industry - ffg, wyrd, warlord, corvus belli or privateer press will be negatively affected to any great or lesser extent.

morgoth wrote:

I think overall the shift will be massively in favor of GW though, as ex-40k players have been "selling" other games for ages now and have pretty much convinced most of the available pool.

I doubt it. That pool is an ever shifting population - it is not finite. I'm sure there's plenty of The people currently playing 40k will burn out and will look for an alternative sooner or later. There will always be new people getting into the hobby, or looking to expand their gaming horizons, and there is no longer 'just gw' offering an entry way in.

morgoth wrote:

With all that's been announced about 8th and the massive change in direction and execution by GW, I wouldn't be surprised if 40K doubles in revenue and active players within a year.

I'll quote you on this. We will see. Gw is making good noises recently but I seriously doubt a doubling in revenue is on the cards.

morgoth wrote:

Those have to come from somewhere and it would only make sense that the games previously used as an escape from 40k would end up taking the biggest hit.

Maybe. An alternative is for the most part maybe they won't be interested, and the weight of 8th will fall on the same population already playing 40k, not on those who have moved on.

I'm keeping an open mind on this latest edition of 40k, and I won't pass judgement until I've actually played a game.

In saying that, I drifted away from GW games a few years back, and having enjoyed Bolt Action, FOW and Maelstrom's Edge since then, I see no reason to head back to GW.

And as for X-Wing, it's a good game, and because it's Star Wars, I know people who would laugh at people like us, rushing out to buy the Millennium Falcon because it's Star Wars.

It's hard for GW to compete with such a popular IP.

Just because people come back to play 8th, doesn't mean they are spending money on new models for it. If GW can build on the recent goodwill following their community-turnaround, then maybe they could start selling more to those who abandoned their products before.
I would think Mantic may have been counting on a little bleed-off for their Warpath game, which may not happen now, though I don't think there's anything stopping you using the same models for both systems.

At the end of the day, an encouraging GW is good for the whole industry, as their store presence and video game IP gives them an advantage in bringing fresh blood to wargaming.

Deadnight wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Yeah, if you don't think X-Wing is a direct competitor, you really don't understand how many gamers think.

It's a sci-fi miniatures game that is a lot cheaper and easier to get into than 40K and has a much stronger IP backing.

It's as much of a direct competitor as board games, CTG and video games. It's an alternative but it's not a competitor.

If it's an alternative, then it's competition. Your dudes are put on the board, you roll dice and you try to beat the other guy. They compete for the same people interested in the same kind of thing.you need to pull your head out of the sand

Fundamentally, your own argument is based on the premise that 8th is amazing. What happens if it's not 'all that, and a bag of chips'?

You keep your definition of competition, I'll keep mine, thanks.

My whole point is based on the premise that 8th is a lot better than 7th, something which is already quite clear in many ways, from GW actually facing their issues and fixing them, following 7th ed FAQ and the involvement of relevant community members, the alignment of their goals with the expectations of their customers etc.

While there may be a 3% chance that 8th is still a fuckup despite all these major improvements, the most likely outcome is that 8th will be significantly better and thus have a strong positive effect on GW's sales, which in turn will have an effect on the rest of the market. The only question that makes sense is: "what effect exactly?"

morgoth wrote:


You keep your definition of competition, I'll keep mine, thanks.

Except yours is categorically wrong.

The only thing up for grabs is whether X Wing is considered a direct or indirect competitior in strict terms based on whether one deems X Wing "the same" as 40K.

They're both competing for the same money, it's just whether you prefer the tablets vs laptops analogy, or consider it more iPhone vs Samsung.

I'd expect a consultant businessman such as yourself to have a better grip on this stuff, tbh.

 Azreal13 wrote:

morgoth wrote:


You keep your definition of competition, I'll keep mine, thanks.

Except yours is categorically wrong.

The only thing up for grabs is whether X Wing is considered a direct or indirect competitior in strict terms based on whether one deems X Wing "the same" as 40K.

They're both competing for the same money, it's just whether you prefer the tablets vs laptops analogy, or consider it more iPhone vs Samsung.

I'd expect a consultant businessman such as yourself to have a better grip on this stuff, tbh.

The chap believes that 40k has no competition and no amount of evidence will change that belief. Really, you'll be here all day talking in circles - it's been done before.

I'm aware, and had already resolved to largely disengage, but I'm also conscious of the fact that less informed onlookers may need the prospesterous arguments being offered highlighted as the shaky nonsense they are in case they get persuaded by their superficial plausibility.

Yeah, it's a competitor. I'd agree they're not the exact same type of game-large scale wargame as compared to small scale ship skirmish-but they're definitely competitors.

As for the OP's question... Well, let me put it this way. I recently started looking into Maelstrom's Edge, because I get the feeling 8th edition is gonna drive me away from 40k.

3% chance GW won't screw up 40k... I'll take the over bet, you would never get a job in vegas setting odds on horse races or sports bets. First rule in setting up odds, know what your taking about.

morgoth wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Yeah, if you don't think X-Wing is a direct competitor, you really don't understand how many gamers think.

It's a sci-fi miniatures game that is a lot cheaper and easier to get into than 40K and has a much stronger IP backing.

It's as much of a direct competitor as board games, CTG and video games. It's an alternative but it's not a competitor.

If it's competing for the same segment of the market, it's a competitor. It may not be an equivalent game, but that's completely separate to whether or not it is a competitor.

X-wing's rival saw quite a few 40K players jump ship. We saw a similar thing back in 4th edition when Mechwarrior: Dark Age came on the scene... The fact that they're different styles of game was less relevant to a lot of players than the fact that they were good. Many players weren't looking for an equivalent experience, just a good ruleset.



I'm sure that 8th edition 40K will see some of those who left dip a toe back in to see how it's shaped up... but we have nowhere near enough information yet to establish whether or not it will actually be a good game. Or whether or not GW's current focus will last past the next 6-12 months... they have a long history of changing their direction, banging away for 6 months or a year or so and then changing their minds again at the drop of a hat.

Honestly, I think the thing that will have a bigger impact on 40K's competitors is simply the number of them that are out there now... It's easier than ever to get a game off the ground these days, but actually getting longevity out of it in such a crowded pool is hard.

If the new edition of 40K is anything like AoS, it's the greatest thing that could possibly happen to non-GW miniature game companies.

I sincerely doubt that 8th will pry me away from X-Wing and that "expensive of expensives," Armada. Even though I have a massive Guard army... having to read, commit to memory and be able to quote rules verbatim for my gaming group is pretty much a killer with so many special rules. Or interpret what's supposed to be simple rules on cards. I trust even GW to be ambiguous about those. FFG can do it, why can't you, GW?

Here's an idea. What if GW is on the cusp of becoming that super-elaborate Napoleonics game that your uncle played in his basement. Very crunchy, but arcane.

I think it's very premature to speculate on this since we don't actually have the game out yet.

However: GW is not the company that crushes all competition in its path anymore. That cat is out the bag, and nothing GW does will put it back in. The market has fragmented with a lot of competitors. Some will do well, some will do poorly, some will go out of business for reasons having nothing to do with GW because, generally speaking, most game companies seem to die through mismanagement.

There's no reason that a GW customer can't be a non-GW customer as well. I don't think it's reasonable to think that everyone playing X-Wing will drop it and start playing 40K again. People can and will play both. Some will just play X-Wing because they want to play with X-Wings and Tie Fighters and have no interest in 40K's setting, let alone assembling and painting stuff. Others will play 40K and have no interest in X-Wing.

Repeat for Kings of War, WarPath, DeadZone, Warmachine, Hordes, FrostGrave, Song of Blades and Heroes, Dragon Rampant, Rogue Stars, Gates of Anteres, Bolt Action, Malifaux, et al. Once upon a time my local stores all had GW and pretty much nothing else. Now they carry choices.

More critical for GW than getting back old players who drifted away is getting new players. Success comes from expanding the customer base, since they're starting with nothing: no rules, no models, no accessories. The player who comes back with his 5th edition army and looks at the rules over his opponent's shoulder brings nothing to GW's bottom line.

morgoth wrote:

Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.

How much do you think this will ruin the day of games like WMH which can't compete on models and only ever grew like weeds because GW wasn't tending their backyard.

First of all, the quality of the game is still supposition until it actually get a played. Even with all the previews to ramp up interest, it still looks like the same 40k we have been stuck with for forever. Ugoigo, etc. In this day and age, these are not revolutionary examples of game design. Its seems like they are just making 40k less bad than it was.

Gw deserve some credit, for sure. But until we see the final product, the exaltations for this newest edition might be better served by cautious optimism.

Secondly, privateer press are shooting themselves in the foot right now, so spillage into 40k from there is likely less to do with gw doing things 'right' and more to do with pp doing things 'wrong'. IMO of course.

Speaking only for myself, there is likely nothing that will bring me back to 40k since skirmish wargaming is where its at for me. I don't want to get back into buying a complete army and deal with the same issues rebranded and 'new and improved' again. I might buy 40k models to use in shadow war, or buy gw models for other systems, but until gw make a good squad based game design that isn't a throw back to their earliest failures, I'm content to sit on the sidelines and buy other products from gw as an ancillary consumer.

 Vaktathi wrote:

A lot of them aren't looking for the same exact experience, but rather something they can bring to a table and play with any random person and have a relatively even game involving miniatures, and get through a game in a reasonable amount of time, beyond that everything is details.

The fact that X-Wing was a fraction of the price to get into and easy to start also helped, particularly as a "well 40k kinda sucks right now, this is a cheap diversion, let's check it out while I take a break from 40k".

That said, there may also be something to the idea that X-Wing is something of a diversion for many while they wait for GW to sort their gak out and will return to 40k once it's playable, at least in part.

^^ This is pretty much my exact experience, except that having gotten into X-Wing now, it stopped being a diversion and became my "main" game. (Well, other than BFG, but that's almost never played these days). As much as I like what I'm seeing with the new direction of 40k (gameplay-wise anyway), it would still have to be pretty damn impressive to pry me away from X-Wing - though to be fair I probably will pick up the rules at some point, and play a few 8th Edition VASSAL games; it just won't be my primary TT game.

I'll dig out my old RT harlequins and will see how 8th plays, but my sci if playing group has all moved over to Antares as we prefer it. I don't think 8th is gonna suddenly change that, but we'll give it a go out of curiosity - using existing models we already own. I might even use my Algoryn instead of marines, as I've got them.

Good job bigging up GW whilst dimissing other games in the opening post too. Good advocacy.

Yeah, count me as one of those who gave up playing 40K to indulge in buying/playing X-Wing (and Armada).

I don't think GW has pulled so great a play as several competitors have lately shot themselves in the foot. Privateer Press and their problems rolling out their latest version. Dust nuking itself from orbit with KS problems. Flames of War and the luke-warm reaction to the new edition. Even X-Wing seems to be examining the bottom of the barrel for new ships of late.

However, I think the excitement over 40K will be very short-lived. Give GW six months, and we'll be back in the same situation as before, with OP armies, bloat on the way and model kits that are more expensive rehashes of what we already have. And a few boxed games bought for the models, not the rules.

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, count me as one of those who gave up playing 40K to indulge in buying/playing X-Wing (and Armada).

I don't think GW has pulled so great a play as several competitors have lately shot themselves in the foot. Privateer Press and their problems rolling out their latest version. Dust nuking itself from orbit with KS problems. Flames of War and the luke-warm reaction to the new edition. Even X-Wing seems to be examining the bottom of the barrel for new ships of late.

However, I think the excitement over 40K will be very short-lived. Give GW six months, and we'll be back in the same situation as before, with OP armies, bloat on the way and model kits that are more expensive rehashes of what we already have. And a few boxed games bought for the models, not the rules.

AoS is now coming up for two years old, and that's largely avoided 'no-brainer' armies and composition. So 40k should follow suit, especially as they're confirmed open to ongoing rules tweaks, and updating unit rules where needed.

As a supporter of "Article 50 GW" I don't every really see myself going back.

I do not need to. Thanks to their stagnation and nuking of Specialist games it forced me out of the GW bubble and I have no desire to go back to it. I have seen a larger world now and I can not "unsee" it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Yeah, count me as one of those who gave up playing 40K to indulge in buying/playing X-Wing (and Armada).

I don't think GW has pulled so great a play as several competitors have lately shot themselves in the foot. Privateer Press and their problems rolling out their latest version. Dust nuking itself from orbit with KS problems. Flames of War and the luke-warm reaction to the new edition. Even X-Wing seems to be examining the bottom of the barrel for new ships of late.

However, I think the excitement over 40K will be very short-lived. Give GW six months, and we'll be back in the same situation as before, with OP armies, bloat on the way and model kits that are more expensive rehashes of what we already have. And a few boxed games bought for the models, not the rules.

AoS is now coming up for two years old, and that's largely avoided 'no-brainer' armies and composition. So 40k should follow suit, especially as they're confirmed open to ongoing rules tweaks, and updating unit rules where needed.

I alway advise my trainees to never use the word "should" as it's a guarantee that someone will cock something up and we'll have to fix it.

morgoth wrote:
I had no idea 40K players switched to X Wing, but it's interesting considering how vastly different the games are.

As previously mentionned, I'm sure X Wing has major traction, I just don't think moving 5 spaceships over a flat mat is a reasonable comparison with assembling, painting and then moving 100 miniatures across a table with 3D terrain.

X wing is dramatically larger than 40k in my area - each store has a league, events Xwing night is 20-3 players. Warmachine is larger than 40k and they pull in 6-8 players on their weekly night of gaming.

 Azreal13 wrote:

morgoth wrote:


I had no idea 40K players switched to X Wing,
.

Then, to be blunt, you're so hopelessly unaware of the market you've essentially disqualified yourself from being able to have any sort of informed discussion about it.

The OP of this thread alone wasn't enough for that?

morgoth wrote:

Now that GW has pulled their head out of their ass and is making awesome rules and solid balance, I'm sure many leavers will come back and many new players will pick 40K.

I expect that 8th ed will be balanced about as well as AoS is now, which is alright, but only that. I strongly doubt the balance will hold up to the pressure a competitive scene will put on it (they will though ).

GW has seemed to realise that they don't need to appeal to everyone with everything and chosen a target market to go with what they want their games to be (not sure which is the chicken and which the egg here). That market appears to be a more casual (maybe naritive inclined) type of player who likes epic models and killing stuff more than other aspects.

I am not sure how anyone could enjoy x wing or battle fleet thingy. Just ships moving around no character no soul. I need a character that I care about or for.

Even in the case of skaven it was a slave, the idea of ship B shoot ship A never attracted me. Then for actual history miniatures, they are boring as old hell they all look the same with different paint scheme.

I tried Warhords or what ever, really wasn't my game. It seemed like it was to early in its life for me. The miniatures the materiel the lore all seemed really new and fan fiction rather then a setting.

You know that the ships have pilots right? That the X Wing can be Luke or the TIE be Darth Vader?

And of course 8th ed still doesn't solve one issue GW games have: Startup cost. When standard game size requires hundreds of euro's(and looks like GW will be pushing for 2k with scale roughly same as now...) that is quite a lot. Even for working people one starts to wonder is that really worth it or would you rather have army/warband/group for multiple games for same price. Especially with ever changing game where you basically end up having to update your army regularly to keep up.