NewHammer: The Dark Imperium and the End of the Blood Angels?

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**jeff white**

Actually the more I think about it the more I see all the old school marine factions ending up in Heresy 30k games. Nothing will stop you from having red numarine variants but the distinctiveness of the chapters on the tabletop will disappear. So I figure on no new BA codex. No new wolves codex. Initial data sheets yes but past that things like thunderwolves will be folded into generic forms e.g. assault bikes.

**Galas**

A shame. As much as people hate the Special Snowflake units to different Space Marine Chapters, I really love them all.

Yes, even the Wulfen! At least their original fluff.
Obviously, for GW is better to have all the Space Marine chapters homogeiniced and being the same just with different colour and some rules, so they can release a space marine set that everyone will want to buy. But meh.

I understand how people sees that whenever aSpace Marine Chapter receive a new variation of the same unit with a special touch for them (Like FW does) they feel like instead of that GW could have done a resculpt of a old miniature of other faction, but to me things don't work like that. I prefer more variation to everybody.

**oldravenman3025**

Luciferian wrote:
So, no one has been talking about this yet, but today's Warhammer Community update is a fluffy one about the state of the Imperium:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/16/new-warhammer-40000-the-dark-imperium-may16gw-homepage-post-4/

Of course, they mention Row-bootay's Saviors of Mankind and how super awesome they are at saving mankind, but they also mention the part of the Imperium that has been isolated by the large warp rift going through the center of the galaxy. In particular, they single out the Blood Angels as being under threat of elimination:

Travel through the Cicatrix Maledictum is all but impossible, but sporadic contact has been made, through temporary warp-routes, to a few of the best-defended worlds on the other side – and things are not looking good.

On the far side of the galaxy-spanning warp storm, things have quite literally gone to hell.

There, the light of the Astronomicon is obscured behind a psychic maelstrom of nightmares and the entire region has been dubbed ‘Imperium Nihilus’, or the Dark Imperium.

Amongst the besieged Imperial worlds in this Dark Imperium are many Space Marine Chapter Planets, including Baal, home of the Blood Angels. Things were already looking pretty grim for the sons of Sanguinius, with a hive fleet closing in on them, and now it looks even bleaker. Cut off from the light of Terra, the Angels and their Successors stand unbowed against the might of Hive Fleet Leviathan, hoping they can withstand the storm.

Yipes, the Blood Angels sound like they are in trouble. This isn’t the first time they have triumphed against impossible odds though, can they make it out alive? We’ll have to see.

So, what's your take on this?

Is it empty melodrama?

Or, with the reveal of Primaris Marines, and the chance that OldMarines might eventually be replaced both in the fluff and on the tabletop, are the Blood Angels going to be the first victim of obsoletion?

The Wolves survived Fenris getting the shaft from Magnus. The Blood Angels will survive their troubles.

First Founding Chapters are not going to get the ax. Unless GeeDubs throws us a curve ball and surprises the hell out of us.

**Jbz`**

Galas wrote:
Strg Alt wrote:
The Blood Angels SM chapter is one of 40K´s cornerstones. Get rid of them and you irrevocably trash the setting. This sentiment can also be applied to the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Though any other SM chapter is fair game for a good ol´ squatting.

To me the popularity of Space Marines Chapters goes something like this:

1-Ultramarines
2-Space Wolves/Dark Angels/Blood Angels
3-Black Templars
4-Imperial Fist
5-White Scars/Crimson Fist
6-Salamanders/Ravenguard
7-Iron Hands.

To me is funny that the most popular Second Fond chapters are both Imperial Fist successors, and at least, to me, the Black Templars are actually more popular both in models, fluff, etc... than the Imperial Fist (After All, they received a proper codex, but Imperial Fist don't )

I'd consider the Ultramarines to be the least popular of the (first founding) chapters.
People tend to find them the most boring, exaggerated by the fact GW seems to favour them so much (rules, characters, lore. They always seem to win)

**ZebioLizard2**

The Wolves survived Fenris getting the shaft from Magnus. The Blood Angels will survive their troubles.

You mean the wolves that basically just packed up and went to go fight and die in the Eye of Terror given that Fenris and a number of planets they owned basically became irradiated, empty rocks?

**Luciferian**

Rysgame wrote:
Considering that BA are a MAJOR lore faction, I assume they have near Ultramarine level plot armor.

Ultramarines have Ward Armor, which is like an invulnerable save in comparison to Plot Armor's 3+. I think it's safe to say that Ultramarines aren't going anywhere, regardless of their popularity, because for whatever reason GW has decided they are the best. On the other hand, it seems at least plausible that the non-Codex chapters might.

**Strg Alt**

@ Galas:
I could live with a limited snowflake factor for three of the big four chapters:

Blood Angels: Death Company Infantry.
Dark Angels: Deathwing & Ravenwing.
Space Wolves: Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Long Fangs.

**Galas**

Jbz` wrote:
Galas wrote:
Strg Alt wrote:
The Blood Angels SM chapter is one of 40K´s cornerstones. Get rid of them and you irrevocably trash the setting. This sentiment can also be applied to the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Though any other SM chapter is fair game for a good ol´ squatting.

To me the popularity of Space Marines Chapters goes something like this:

1-Ultramarines
2-Space Wolves/Dark Angels/Blood Angels
3-Black Templars
4-Imperial Fist
5-White Scars/Crimson Fist
6-Salamanders/Ravenguard
7-Iron Hands.

To me is funny that the most popular Second Fond chapters are both Imperial Fist successors, and at least, to me, the Black Templars are actually more popular both in models, fluff, etc... than the Imperial Fist (After All, they received a proper codex, but Imperial Fist don't )

I'd consider the Ultramarines to be the least popular of the (first founding) chapters.
People tend to find them the most boring, exaggerated by the fact GW seems to favour them so much (rules, characters, lore. They always seem to win)

I understand that, but at least my impresion after years of playing is that Ultramarines are the most numerous faction out there. Dakka is not the real world afterall

**BrianDavion**

Jbz` wrote:
Galas wrote:
Strg Alt wrote:
The Blood Angels SM chapter is one of 40K´s cornerstones. Get rid of them and you irrevocably trash the setting. This sentiment can also be applied to the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Though any other SM chapter is fair game for a good ol´ squatting.

To me the popularity of Space Marines Chapters goes something like this:

1-Ultramarines
2-Space Wolves/Dark Angels/Blood Angels
3-Black Templars
4-Imperial Fist
5-White Scars/Crimson Fist
6-Salamanders/Ravenguard
7-Iron Hands.

To me is funny that the most popular Second Fond chapters are both Imperial Fist successors, and at least, to me, the Black Templars are actually more popular both in models, fluff, etc... than the Imperial Fist (After All, they received a proper codex, but Imperial Fist don't )

I'd consider the Ultramarines to be the least popular of the (first founding) chapters.
People tend to find them the most boring, exaggerated by the fact GW seems to favour them so much (rules, characters, lore. They always seem to win)

whatever the numbers are (and I suspect the UMs popularity would suprise their detractors) I do think that he's not wrong in his general statement that the "big 4" (Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels) are proably fairly safe likewise I'd hazzard a guess that all the first founding chapters are safe(to put it bluntly the popularity of the Horus Heresy has likely only cemented the popularity of the first founding) the black templars, flesh tearers and crimson fists are also likely to be semi safe due to having characters (and in the templars case) special troops.

that said, regarding the various special chapters. I predict we're gonna see an expansion of the 6th/7th edition experiment with chapter tactics and the black templars.
in that you use the base rules. then set your chapter. and if the chapter is X, you can then take certain units, but are restricted from taking other units.

**Grimgold**

My favorite chapter is, of course, the dark angels because I love the fluff of knights in space, as opposed to space Vikings or space vampires or space Romans. The other reason is they have three color schemes, The dark green of the battle companies, the bone color of the deathwing, and the black of the ravenwing. That along with their robes makes them the most interesting looking of marine chapters. I'm a little sad they lost their native American stylings, but they doubled down on the gothic knights thing so I guess it's all for the best.

I wasn't too worried about nu-marines until I saw their statline, it's so close to being a vanilla space marine it was obvious these were meant to replace marines rather than be a supplement like custodes or centurions. I appreciate a soft launch though, and the nu-marines look great. So I'm not ready to grab my torch and pitchfork just yet.

**Wyzilla**

Blood Angels will be fine. The prophecy anyway is that Dante is somehow going to be involved with Sanguinius (possibly a resurrection?), and that the Emperor will be saved from death by the Bangles.

**SilverAlien**

jeff white wrote:
Actually the more I think about it the more I see all the old school marine factions ending up in Heresy 30k games. Nothing will stop you from having red numarine variants but the distinctiveness of the chapters on the tabletop will disappear. So I figure on no new BA codex. No new wolves codex. Initial data sheets yes but past that things like thunderwolves will be folded into generic forms e.g. assault bikes.

I'd be shocked if this were the case. Why wouldn't they just release new versions of it, it's not like they haven't sold well and will continue to do so.

**Luciferian**

SilverAlien wrote:
jeff white wrote:
Actually the more I think about it the more I see all the old school marine factions ending up in Heresy 30k games. Nothing will stop you from having red numarine variants but the distinctiveness of the chapters on the tabletop will disappear. So I figure on no new BA codex. No new wolves codex. Initial data sheets yes but past that things like thunderwolves will be folded into generic forms e.g. assault bikes.

I'd be shocked if this were the case. Why wouldn't they just release new versions of it, it's not like they haven't sold well and will continue to do so.

How much money are they losing by splitting SM sales for expensive chapter specific sculpts? Wouldn't it financial make sense to homogenize the line so they can make roughly the same money with fewer production costs?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to clarify I'm not trying to be a hater or drum up the ire of the mob, just spitballing potential scenarios.

**Point_blank**

Popsghostly wrote:
YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

But with them teetering on the edge you've got a great entrance for their primarch to show back up and save the day. Give you guilli on one side and sang on the other trying to hold together a fractured galaxy. Seems like a promising story to me, unless Someone else is being primed to show up and try to deal with the dark side of the galaxy.

Yeah this is leading up to Sanguinus coming back and maybe the Blood Angels will become something like the Vampire Angels or something like that and have the Vampire Transport armed with the Vampire Cannon and the special squads called the Vampire Warrior Killers with their Vampire Shields and Vampire Destroyer Fists.

GW would absolutely never do that in a million years

Vampire can't be trademarked.

Edit: honestly there's so much good fluff in the main space marine chapters that it almost seems wasted having them be just different colours of the same army with one or two special units. I think Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels would be better as armies in their own right with a full model range and completely different play styles to other space marines. The only problem is that it would invalidate old collections but that may not be top of the agenda these days

**Grimgold**

Wyzilla wrote:
Blood Angels will be fine. The prophecy anyway is that Dante is somehow going to be involved with Sanguinius (possibly a resurrection?), and that the Emperor will be saved from death by the Bangles.

Prophecy is a tricky thing, for instance, which emperor is Dante going to save? If the BAs die to a man saving Robute Guilliman prophecy fulfilled. Also, there have already been clones of primarchs, and as cheap as a way out as that is, it seems like the only real option for Saguinius since he is not in the missing and presumed dead camp, he is in the dead as a doorknob, confirmed to be pushing up daisies, wormfood camp.

**jade_angel**

Point_blank wrote:
Popsghostly wrote:
YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

But with them teetering on the edge you've got a great entrance for their primarch to show back up and save the day. Give you guilli on one side and sang on the other trying to hold together a fractured galaxy. Seems like a promising story to me, unless Someone else is being primed to show up and try to deal with the dark side of the galaxy.

Yeah this is leading up to Sanguinus coming back and maybe the Blood Angels will become something like the Vampire Angels or something like that and have the Vampire Transport armed with the Vampire Cannon and the special squads called the Vampire Warrior Killers with their Vampire Shields and Vampire Destroyer Fists.

GW would absolutely never do that in a million years

Vampire can't be trademarked.

And to the extent that it can, White Wolf/Onyx Path beat them to it by a megaparsec.

**Wyzilla**

Grimgold wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Blood Angels will be fine. The prophecy anyway is that Dante is somehow going to be involved with Sanguinius (possibly a resurrection?), and that the Emperor will be saved from death by the Bangles.

Prophecy is a tricky thing, for instance, which emperor is Dante going to save? If the BAs die to a man saving Robute Guilliman prophecy fulfilled. Also, there have already been clones of primarchs, and as cheap as a way out as that is, it seems like the only real option for Saguinius since he is not in the missing and presumed dead camp, he is in the dead as a doorknob, confirmed to be pushing up daisies, wormfood camp.

His soul is intact, same with Ferrus Manus. It's just a manner of getting a new body and sucking the soul back into it. Clones are worthless as they are soulless. The only Primarch that will stay dead for certain is Horus, considering the Emperor erased his soul which makes resurrection impossible.

**Giantwalkingchair**

Everything will go one of two ways.

BA will be fine with their plot armour. Or they'll get wiped. Personally I think the Aeldari will show up and pull another Girlyman on sanguinius.
Otherwise the BA essentially get squatted and put into the IoM book as a special unit like how plague marines etc were in the chaos codex- same goes for wolves. If this happens, I will kack myself laughing as a popular marine chapter is essentially squatted before sisters.

**AegisGrimm**

Strg Alt wrote:
@ Galas:
I could live with a limited snowflake factor for three of the big four chapters:

Blood Angels: Death Company Infantry.
Dark Angels: Deathwing & Ravenwing.
Space Wolves: Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Long Fangs.

Heh. Soo.....2nd-4th editions versions of them, then?

**TheLumberJack**

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Everything will go one of two ways.

BA will be fine with their plot armour. Or they'll get wiped. Personally I think the Aeldari will show up and pull another Girlyman on sanguinius.
Otherwise the BA essentially get squatted and put into the IoM book as a special unit like how plague marines etc were in the chaos codex- same goes for wolves. If this happens, I will kack myself laughing as a popular marine chapter is essentially squatted before sisters.

This is what I think is gonna happen. But I think it also makes more sense to keep sisters. They are actually a different army that has a drastically different playstyle. Yeah the other chapters have some special units and rules, but they are all still marines. Same statlines, access to a lot of the same wargear, look almost identical.

**Poly Ranger**

I have over 2 score of DC, all 30 SG that a chapter is supposed to have, 2 Fragiosos, 2 DC dreads and 6 Baals. These are units not represented in any other chapter aside from BA and their successors. I may be able to use my tacticals/assault marines/termis/other vehicles etc as another chapter but not these models.
If they invalidate these models I lose the ability to use hundreds upon hundreds of pounds worth of my models. As will thousands of other people. If what GW are saying is true and they are listening to their player base now, they will not kill off the BA and their successors.

**Dakka Wolf**

TheLumberJack wrote:
Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Everything will go one of two ways.

BA will be fine with their plot armour. Or they'll get wiped. Personally I think the Aeldari will show up and pull another Girlyman on sanguinius.
Otherwise the BA essentially get squatted and put into the IoM book as a special unit like how plague marines etc were in the chaos codex- same goes for wolves. If this happens, I will kack myself laughing as a popular marine chapter is essentially squatted before sisters.

This is what I think is gonna happen. But I think it also makes more sense to keep sisters. They are actually a different army that has a drastically different playstyle. Yeah the other chapters have some special units and rules, but they are all still marines. Same statlines, access to a lot of the same wargear, look almost identical.

Bah.
Space Wolves hold four of the top five spots as models people hate the look of, that's a pretty nifty effort when you look the same as other marine armies.

By your comparison Sisters are just Guard with 3+ armour saves.

**Luciferian**

Poly Ranger wrote:
I have over 2 score of DC, all 30 SG that a chapter is supposed to have, 2 Fragiosos, 2 DC dreads and 6 Baals. These are units not represented in any other chapter aside from BA and their successors. I may be able to use my tacticals/assault marines/termis/other vehicles etc as another chapter but not these models.
If they invalidate these models I lose the ability to use hundreds upon hundreds of pounds worth of my models. As will thousands of other people. If what GW are saying is true and they are listening to their player base now, they will not kill off the BA and their successors.

Oh trust me, I wouldn't be that happy either. I have 18 black knights and a bunch of ravenwing bikers, a few Deathwing squads and a Darkshroud, all of which I just bought.

In any case, I don't think GW would phase out non-Codex chapters immediately. If they were going to do it, I think they'd give us the Tomb Kings treatment - give us rules to use our armies at first, but with no further releases or support to follow.

**SilverAlien**

Luciferian wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
jeff white wrote:
Actually the more I think about it the more I see all the old school marine factions ending up in Heresy 30k games. Nothing will stop you from having red numarine variants but the distinctiveness of the chapters on the tabletop will disappear. So I figure on no new BA codex. No new wolves codex. Initial data sheets yes but past that things like thunderwolves will be folded into generic forms e.g. assault bikes.

I'd be shocked if this were the case. Why wouldn't they just release new versions of it, it's not like they haven't sold well and will continue to do so.

How much money are they losing by splitting SM sales for expensive chapter specific sculpts? Wouldn't it financial make sense to homogenize the line so they can make roughly the same money with fewer production costs?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to clarify I'm not trying to be a hater or drum up the ire of the mob, just spitballing potential scenarios.

because the person who really likes drunken vikings and wolves probably won't be interested in buying into the standard SM line. I'm one of the people who actually got interested in space wolves due to things like werewolf berserkers and thunderwolf cavalry (making me something of a minority from what I understand). But I'm never really going to be interested in buying standard space marines. Now factor in that each consumer has a finite amount of money to put into the hobby. Just coming out for more expensive sculpts of the same line is less effective. It's the same reason we won't ever see all the marks of chaos removed and chaos undivided the only option. You miss out on the people who like particular flavors, and aren't really interested in generic vanilla.

More model ranges appeal to more tastes, which just makes more sense when people's wallets need time to recover between purchases, given GW's prices.

**GodDamUser**

Wasn't there a Novel released recently (or coming soon) with the Story of Hive Fleet Leviathan reaching Baal after the Shield of Baal Campaign..

**thegreatchimp**

Primaris Marines are GWs answer to player's who've been complaining for years about marines underwhelming stats (compared to how they're depicted in the fluff), and secondly to hobbyists who've been complaining about how short marines are (compared to how they're depicted in the fluff). And I can sympathise with those players. On the other hand, I can also appreciate why regular marines are under-statted -because the game would be unfun, and unprofitable, if 15 models on one side were an even match for 200 models in another army. The Primaris marines offer a nice compromise in this regard, and an optional one at that. Personally, I think it's a great move.

GW have stated that they will in no way be replacing existing marine models with them, or phasing out regular marines as playable units. Unless we see otherwise in the future, what they've stated is definitive enough that nobody should be fretting over these bad boys.

**Dakka Wolf**

SilverAlien wrote:
Luciferian wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
jeff white wrote:
Actually the more I think about it the more I see all the old school marine factions ending up in Heresy 30k games. Nothing will stop you from having red numarine variants but the distinctiveness of the chapters on the tabletop will disappear. So I figure on no new BA codex. No new wolves codex. Initial data sheets yes but past that things like thunderwolves will be folded into generic forms e.g. assault bikes.

I'd be shocked if this were the case. Why wouldn't they just release new versions of it, it's not like they haven't sold well and will continue to do so.

How much money are they losing by splitting SM sales for expensive chapter specific sculpts? Wouldn't it financial make sense to homogenize the line so they can make roughly the same money with fewer production costs?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to clarify I'm not trying to be a hater or drum up the ire of the mob, just spitballing potential scenarios.

because the person who really likes drunken vikings and wolves probably won't be interested in buying into the standard SM line. I'm one of the people who actually got interested in space wolves due to things like werewolf berserkers and thunderwolf cavalry (making me something of a minority from what I understand). But I'm never really going to be interested in buying standard space marines. Now factor in that each consumer has a finite amount of money to put into the hobby. Just coming out for more expensive sculpts of the same line is less effective. It's the same reason we won't ever see all the marks of chaos removed and chaos undivided the only option. You miss out on the people who like particular flavors, and aren't really interested in generic vanilla.

More model ranges appeal to more tastes, which just makes more sense when people's wallets need time to recover between purchases, given GW's prices.

According to Traditio's polls we're the kind of minority whose votes count for double.

**Slayer le boucher**

"The end of the Blood Angles is near!!!!"...

Damn it reminds me of something that happened last year?...

oh yeah the so called "End of the Space Wolves"...

WHile i love the notion of a "Dark Imperium" and if done right it might give interesting stuff, BA arn't going anywhere, they might have a less 2 dimensional fluff( or worse, you know GW its either hit or miss).

**Poly Ranger**

To those people who say BA are the same playstyle as vanilla - You have blatantly hardly ever played against BA. BA is all about powerful, fast-moving assault units either supporting or backed up by fast (scouting/outflanking, in many cases) tanks with the option of lots of flame.
No unit in the SM dex represents Death Company, no unit comes close to representing Sanguinary Guard and there are no fast, scouting tanks available to any other chapter. These things combined with Furious Charge made the BA playstyle utterly different to all other chapters.

**Luciferian**

thegreatchimp wrote:
Primaris Marines are GWs answer to player's who've been complaining for years about marines underwhelming stats (compared to how they're depicted in the fluff), and secondly to hobbyists who've been complaining about how short marines are (compared to how they're depicted in the fluff). And I can sympathise with those players. I can also appreciate why regular marines are under-stated -because the game would be un-fun, and unprofitable, if 15 models on one side were an even match for 200 models in another army. The Primaris marines offer a nice compromise in this regard, and an optional one at that. Personally, I think it's a great move.

GW have stated that they will in no way be replacing existing marine models with them, or phasing out regular marines as playable units. Unless we see otherwise in the future, what they've stated is definitive enough that nobody should be fretting over these bad boys.

SilverAlien wrote:

because the person who really likes drunken vikings and wolves probably won't be interested in buying into the standard SM line. I'm one of the people who actually got interested in space wolves due to things like werewolf berserkers and thunderwolf cavalry (making me something of a minority from what I understand). But I'm never really going to be interested in buying standard space marines. Now factor in that each consumer has a finite amount of money to put into the hobby. Just coming out for more expensive sculpts of the same line is less effective. It's the same reason we won't ever see all the marks of chaos removed and chaos undivided the only option. You miss out on the people who like particular flavors, and aren't really interested in generic vanilla.

More model ranges appeal to more tastes, which just makes more sense when people's wallets need time to recover between purchases, given GW's prices.

Do you guys really believe they'll release a single new unit in the old scale for the old marines, ever again? Just saying. Yeah, they'll sell what they have for now, and yeah they'll give us some rules for them, but I just can't see them moving forward with two different scales of marine in production.

Again, I love the new models and the new rules, and I understand that they had to revamp the SM line sooner or later, but it certainly does seem like a ripe opportunity for them to trim some fat and start from square one. Yeah, they are going to piss a few people off and some players who are only interested in one particular army are not going to be happy, but they'll make more while spending less, as well as deliver what could possibly be a better "core" marine experience at the expense of some of that flavor.

Maybe I'm wrong and they'll release Primaris models for each of the big chapters, but I just don't see them ever putting out another OldMarine unit again.