Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They can take carapace armor too no? Wouldn't that make them identical in function and aesthetic?

Yeah they can also take scout armour.

Identical in function?

When it comes to Codex-adherent Chapters, the word "Scouts" refers to a neophyte formation assigned to general recon duties. Initiates are mustered out as Marines into more senior companies. A HH Recon Squad, by contrast, seems to be a type of Specialist unit made up of fully-fledged Legionnaires.

They are fully fledged Legionnaires, yeah.

They do - however - fill the same battlefield role and function as Scouts do.
They're between a Space Wolf Scout and Normal scout by modern 40k standards when it comes to training (and remember that Space Wolf Scouts are full-blown veterans).

Uh wouldn't SW "Scouts" actually just be a HH-era Recon Squad, given SW are Chapter In Name Only. Again, emphasizing the difference between what we are used to thinking of as Scouts in 40k (n00bs) versus HH specialist squad.

Scouts in 40k are compromised of initiates and veterans, it just depends on the chapter. It's also worth noting that a 40k unit of Scouts and a 30k recon squad should still be able to operate in a similar fashion. The addition,or lack thereof , of the black carapace wouldn't mitigate a scouts abilities to conduct reconnaissance. A veteran legionnairre may have a better mind for quality Intel but who knows. Same function on the battlefield.

Hmm, I thought Wold Scouts were more elite than they actually are. I could have sworn they were wolf guard level rather than Grey Hunter. But I'm definitively wrong about that, whoops!

Well in that case, yeah they would be on the same level as Wolf Scouts.

Night Lords and Alpha Legion essentially use cultists with better training and gear as scouts. Assuming they are successful at the job and survive long enough they get implanted with gene-seed and become chaos marines.

Again, you have to look at it more broadly than the word "recon." When we're talking about Codex-adherent Chapters, the word "Scout" designates first and foremost a neophyte. Although they are often assigned reconnaissance duty - and keep in mind a tac squad could draw the same kind of assignment - they are actually being trained in a variety of skills. Some will end up in tac squads while others will end up as specialists. By contrast, a HH Recon Squad is exactly such a specialist unit. If it helps, image a squad of Tellions as opposed to a squad of Tellion's students.

If by "scout" we mean the Codex-prescribed training formation then CSM don't have them because CSM are obviously not Codex-adherent. If by "scout" we mean a dedicated battlefield intel gathering unit then it's no surprise that such a specialized unit is not covered by the CSM list considering warbands tend to be motley collections of individual warriors moreso than professional, rationalized formations.

 Manchu wrote:
Again, you have to look at it more broadly than the word "recon." When we're talking about Codex-adherent Chapters, the word "Scout" designates first and foremost a neophyte. Although they are often assigned reconnaissance duty - and keep in mind a tac squad could draw the same kind of assignment - they are actually being trained in a variety of skills. Some will end up in tac squads while others will end up as specialists. By contrast, a HH Recon Squad is exactly such a specialist unit. If it helps, image a squad of Tellions as opposed to a squad of Tellion's students.

If by "scout" we mean the Codex-prescribed training formation then CSM don't have them because CSM are obviously not Codex-adherent. If by "scout" we mean a dedicated battlefield intel gathering unit then it's no surprise that such a specialized unit is not covered by the CSM list considering warbands tend to be motley collections of individual warriors moreso than professional, rationalized formations.

The thing is that not only Legion era marines are Chaos Marines. All the recently renegade Chaos Chapters, that are Codex Astartes Chapters, should have Chaos-Scouts.

Well in the Heretics and Renegades army list released in Forge World, there's a lot of forces that are scout-esque. I can think of Marauder with Stalker feature / Veterans. It makes perfect sense that after the CSM recruit them, but before they are 100% astares, they would receive less armour and have less strength than an average CSM.
Additionally, utilising their previous expertise, they would be the ones tasked to do scouting work.

Manchu wrote:Ah you just mean sneaky guys in PA, sure.

MurderKing wrote:https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Legion-MKIV-Recon-Squad

^Scouts

Yes, Scouts are a codex implementation to weed out weak minds in training to prevent corruption. And chapters like Space Wolves simply don't wait, they do the full process before putting them in the field and let natural selection weed out the weak, stupid and unlucky newbies.


You could also say that the Scout, being only in training, are too idealistic and loyal to the Imperium having been a regular, Emperor-fearing/loving child a few years before. When the chapter or Sergeant or whoever falls to Chaos, they may just kill off the measley Scouts that are still very loyal to the Imperium and haven't yet experienced the hardship and temptation that leads an Astartes to Chaos. Or maybe as a rite of passage the Sergeants or traitor has to kill off Scouts to prove they have abandoned their ties to dogma and the Imperium, kind of like how Anakin had to kill off the younglings in Revenge of the Sith to prove his devotion to the Sith, rather than turn them into Sith assassins. They were already too indoctrinated in the Jedi (Imperium's) ways, and killing off young initiates to prove that your old self is gone is a pretty Chaos thing to do.

 Galas wrote:
All the recently renegade Chaos Chapters, that are Codex Astartes Chapters, should have Chaos-Scouts.

Ha well I am a bit curious as to how you imagine a Chapter falling to Chaos. Something like ...

Space Marine A: Greetings, brother. Did you read the memo from Chaplain Haeterius?

Space Marine B: No, brother - what's going on?

Space Marine A: Well, we've fallen to Chaos so from now on we are Chaos Space Marines.

Chaos Space Marine B: Blasted, I suppose that involves all kinds of changes to our order of battle. How irritating!

Chaos Space Marine A: To the contrary, brother, the only thing changing is we put spikes on our Power Armour.

Chaos Space Marine B: Praise the Emp-

Chaos Space Marine A: Whoa there, brother.

Chaos Space Marine B: Ahem, praise the Dark Gods.

So yeah, it probably is not an easy transition. Falling to Chaos is much more likely to involve the Chapter imploding or just individual Marines falling and breaking away. In any case, there is no reason to believe, even in the quite rare case of an entire Chapter falling together, that the traitors would feel compelled to continue following the Codex. Indeed, those Chapters traditionally thought most ripe for fall are those who already significantly diverge from the Codex. Keep in mind the purpose of the Codex, and something it is pretty successful at doing, is preventing entire Space Marine Chapters from turning traitor.

Well, I think that Chaos Space Marines are veteran fighters.
They have no more new recruitments, just Cultists to fill the ranks.

Wew lad. Chaos Marines don't have scouts on the tabletop because their playstyle and design philosophy is different from C:SM. In the fluff of course they have scouts in the literal sense- all armies have reconnaissance units of some kind.

Do they have scouts in the vein of SM scouts: chapter initiates who act as recon squads and wear light power armor while steadily being taught the myriad values and combat tactics of their chapter? Yeah, some warbands do- most probably do not. When a chapter goes rouge and the chapter structure breaks down, the marines that would be considered "scouts" in a loyalist chapter basically lose that distinction and are considered regular marines by their brothers- albeit perhaps marines that lack experience and need to prove themselves.

The only real distinction between Chaos Marine initiates and loyalist marine initiates is that the Codex Astartes system decrees that initiatives should be given a degree of protection until the training process is complete, whereas initiates in a Chaos warband are essentially thrown into the deep-end of the pool immediately and are expected to survive and prove themselves or die.

 Manchu wrote:
I thought Scouts were another innovation of Codex Astartes, specifically as part of the 1000-man structure of Chapters. I don't remember hearing about Scouts among the Legions.

Well there were recon marines in 30k on all sides

they sometimes where power armor.

im pretty sure some regular chaos space marines do run around in power armor but act like scouts

question is what happend to all the bolt snipers. (i forget what they did)

also hoping chaos does get some flavor of snipers (because i dont recall them having any) because fighting characters is going to get annoying.

@Desubot - yep we have discussed it pretty extensively above, including distinguishing between neophytes assigned to recon duties as opposed to recon specialist legionnaires.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Aren't Scouts still Scouts because they're still waiting for the Black Carapace to fully mature so they can interface with Power Armor proper?

No - they have all the augments. They ether don't have a marine casualty to replace (if the chapter is at full str) or they don't have any battle experience yet - they need that first before they can be put into tactical or assault squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Wew lad. Chaos Marines don't have scouts on the tabletop because their playstyle and design philosophy is different from C:SM. In the fluff of course they have scouts in the literal sense- all armies have reconnaissance units of some kind.

Do they have scouts in the vein of SM scouts: chapter initiates who act as recon squads and wear light power armor while steadily being taught the myriad values and combat tactics of their chapter? Yeah, some warbands do- most probably do not. When a chapter goes rouge and the chapter structure breaks down, the marines that would be considered "scouts" in a loyalist chapter basically lose that distinction and are considered regular marines by their brothers- albeit perhaps marines that lack experience and need to prove themselves.

The only real distinction between Chaos Marine initiates and loyalist marine initiates is that the Codex Astartes system decrees that initiatives should be given a degree of protection until the training process is complete, whereas initiates in a Chaos warband are essentially thrown into the deep-end of the pool immediately and are expected to survive and prove themselves or die.

Yeah so if you think about it - if scouts get corrupted - very soon after they are probably killing/getting killed to take another CSMs armor.

 Xenomancers wrote:
No - they have all the augments.

I don't think that's quite right - I thought they get the black carapace upon "graduation."

I want to cry.

Up until very recent editions, chaos veteran squads were described as fulfilling the scout role in most warbands.

New marines did not have a separate role, due to the warband / less formal nature of things.

Those who are obsessed with recent renegades should look to reskining the loyal rules.

How quickly they forget.

 Manchu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No - they have all the augments.

I don't think that's quite right - I thought they get the black carapace upon "graduation."

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Carapace
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Neophyte

From what I remember from reading my 5th edition codex which had a pretty extensive description of every augment the marine goes through before they are considered marines. Carapace was the last (most don't live through the process) those that do are worth to become scout marines. Unless they needed reinforcements immediately - in which case he'd be strapping on power armor and going into battle right then and there as a rookie.

 Desubot wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I thought Scouts were another innovation of Codex Astartes, specifically as part of the 1000-man structure of Chapters. I don't remember hearing about Scouts among the Legions.

Well there were recon marines in 30k on all sides

they sometimes where power armor.

im pretty sure some regular chaos space marines do run around in power armor but act like scouts

question is what happend to all the bolt snipers. (i forget what they did)

also hoping chaos does get some flavor of snipers (because i dont recall them having any) because fighting characters is going to get annoying.

I think chaos snipers would be pretty cool, could have them be like necron deathmarks

Well CSM had scouts back when chosen had infiltrate. That's always how I've seen CSM scouting. They're basically specops sent ahead of the rest. That even matches the whole glory hogs thing as those selected get to grips withe the enemy first and can claim their kills or whatever they praise.
On the other hand they would use chaos cults or spies or whatever for intel as opposed to sending in marines, which doesn't really translate to the table top.

@Xenomancers - careful using 40k wikia, it is full of fan fiction and unsourced claims; since Lexicanum does not provide a cite, only thing for it is to look up the info in the dex when I get home.

I imagine it's because they don't want to. It doesn't really suit the fluff for Chaos to have an advanced scouting force of neophytes, generally it's a more trial by fire, thrown straight in to the mix.

Yes this doesn't make sense for newly renegade chapters, but you are better off using normal SM rules for them anyway.

 Rippy wrote:
I imagine it's because they don't want to. It doesn't really suit the fluff for Chaos to have an advanced scouting force of neophytes, generally it's a more trial by fire, thrown straight in to the mix.

Yes this doesn't make sense for newly renegade chapters, but you are better off using normal SM rules for them anyway.

Dunno it definitely doesn't work with slannesh nurgle or corn but i can see tzeench being particularly fond of sneaky tactics.

then again it already uses shapeshifters and voodoo mind magic so maybe its redundant.

alpha legion probably would use this tactic. whos to say they already dont

As to using scouts as a way of initiation..... i feel like chaos would take in whom ever they like... actually do CSM make new marines at all?

 Desubot wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I imagine it's because they don't want to. It doesn't really suit the fluff for Chaos to have an advanced scouting force of neophytes, generally it's a more trial by fire, thrown straight in to the mix.

Yes this doesn't make sense for newly renegade chapters, but you are better off using normal SM rules for them anyway.

Dunno it definitely doesn't work with slannesh nurgle or corn but i can see tzeench being particularly fond of sneaky tactics.

then again it already uses shapeshifters and voodoo mind magic so maybe its redundant.

alpha legion probably would use this tactic. whos to say they already dont

As to using scouts as a way of initiation..... i feel like chaos would take in whom ever they like... actually do CSM make new marines at all?

I've seen it so many ways how csm get recruits. Some say they make them, some say they corrupt, some say they are brought back to life so i really dont know

Nowhere in the fluff do chaos 1k sons use scouts, and Alpha Legion easily can use the SM codex OR the chaos codex.

 Rippy wrote:
I imagine it's because they don't want to. It doesn't really suit the fluff for Chaos to have an advanced scouting force of neophytes, generally it's a more trial by fire, thrown straight in to the mix.

Yes this doesn't make sense for newly renegade chapters, but you are better off using normal SM rules for them anyway.

I've often thought that a "Rengade marine" rule set would be a fun thing to introduce in a white dwarf or something. sort of a Hybrid Marine/Chaos list, where they lose some of the more expensive SM options to reflect a lack of access to forge worlds but gain a smattering of chaos stuff, such as losing access to chaplains but their captains can take demon swords, etc.