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Once again, it's pretty specific that they have to be the same faction. Thus I don't think we are going to see demons in a single FoC/detachment with Chaos marines ala KDK, but Chaos marines can take an ally FoC/Detachment of demons because they share faction keywords. Also if something like the Xenos keyword doesn't exists, and shared faction keywords are required to ally, then you created a whole bunch of second class armies that can't ally with anyone, namely tau, necrons, and orks.
That's only true if faction keywords don't actually define your faction. Which, while possible, would be very strange indeed, because otherwise what is their purpose? We shall see.
Also, factions like Orks or Necrons are only second class armies if the advantage of taking allies significantly outweighs the synergy bonuses you get from focusing on a single faction. That would be a game design failure, since that's counter to their stated goal with this edition.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/25 20:09:40
That's only true if faction keywords don't actually define your faction. Which, while possible, would be very strange indeed, because otherwise what is their purpose? We shall see.
Also, factions like Orks or Necrons are only second class armies if the advantage of taking allies significantly outweighs the synergy bonuses you get from focusing on a single faction. That would be a game design failure, since that's counter to their stated goal with this edition.
Not sure I got that one, but I'll take a swing anyway. Faction keywords are categorical and each one grants increasing specificity, Imperium is a category, Space marine is a subcategory of imperium, and Dark angel is a subcategory of space marines. Your faction is the combination of all of your faction keywords, Imperium/Space Marine/Dark angels is a very different faction than Chaos/Heretic astartes/Dark angels, they share a faction keyword but are different factions. In the same fashion Imperium/Imperial Agents/Sisters of Battle is a different faction than Imperium/Imperial Agents/Ad Mech.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
That could be the case, and part of me hopes so, but if it is the case, additional rules need to be added to dictate allies. it is just as likely that any 1 keyword shows your faction and having multiple keywords in common is only required for bonuses, not for a cohesive faction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/25 21:09:48
Not sure I got that one, but I'll take a swing anyway. Faction keywords are categorical and each one grants increasing specificity, Imperium is a category, Space marine is a subcategory of imperium, and Dark angel is a subcategory of space marines. Your faction is the combination of all of your faction keywords, Imperium/Space Marine/Dark angels is a very different faction than Chaos/Heretic astartes/Dark angels, they share a faction keyword but are different factions. In the same fashion Imperium/Imperial Agents/Sisters of Battle is a different faction than Imperium/Imperial Agents/Ad Mech.
I see what you mean now, and that's possible. Guess we'll have to wait for the full rules to settle this.
These Detachments come with a few benefits and restrictions. The most common restriction is that all units in a single Detachment must share a faction keyword (Tyranid, Blood Angels or Imperium for example). The most common bonus is that, depending on how optimised your army is for the logistics of war, you’ll get Command Points to spend. We’ll cover exactly what these can do for you soon, but trust us when we say they are incredibly useful if used wisely, and you generally get more of them if your army is a well rounded and balanced force.
If I had to pick one thing I want fixed more than anything it's allies. I abhor the allies matrix in 7th. In my opinion that allies matrix contributes to about 80% (total out-of-arse number) of the issues with 7th. I cringed every single time someone had an army of absolutely ridiculous allies, because that allies matrix was almost exclusively used for really dumb power-gaming and very rarely used for lists that made sense. It was an abomination and hopefully is done away with.
Here's who should be able to ally
eldar and dark eldar
space marines, imperial guard, and imperial knights.
So no Chaos and Chaos Deamons?
No Inquisitors with Deathwatch?
No Sisters of Battle with Imperial Guard?
No Harlequins with Eldar or Dark Eldar?
Just can follow your line of thinking. Chaos, Eldar, Imperium have long been the high-level factions of the game. Imperium and Eldar temporary alliances have been happening as long as I can remember.
Each datasheet will have a set of Faction Keywords. These go from general to specific. For example, you'd have IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, and <REGIMENT>. Each detachment you choose for your army must share at least one faction keyword.
Faction-specific stratagems are only available to detachments that are entirely composed of that faction- so if you take a mixed Imperium force, you won't have access to the Astra Militarum stratagems.
In addition, unit buffs only apply to certain unit keywords. If you take Space Marine forces alongside your Astra Militarum, the Space Marine buffs will only apply to units with the SPACE MARINES keyword.
You can also make an army of multiple single-faction detachments, each of which would then benefit from their faction stratagems and buffs. However, this gives you fewer Command Points to work with than a similarly-sized single detachment would.
I think that in order to be in a FoC (eg: detachment) you have to have all faction keywords be the same. Allies (people who share at least one faction keyword but not all faction keywords) will need to be in a separate FoC. So you can have Space wolves and ultramarines in your army, they will just need to be in separate FoCs, one probably in the small 0 CPFoC and one in the standard sized one that grants 3CP. To continue the example of the space wolves and Ultramarines, they would be able to use Imperial and space marine Stratagems, but not ultramarine or space wolf stratagems. Buffs that affect space marines would affect them all, but buffs that affected only ultramarines would not affect the space wolves.
The issue is you are unlikely to get to the 9 CPFoC in non-apoc games, and the 3cp formation is pretty trivial to get (2 HQ and 3 troops). That would seem to encourage bringing multiple detachments, because there is no downside to bringing allies unless the lowest level keywords have some silly awesome CP uses. Even then at 3cp in the average game you might get to use them once or twice. We are missing some aspect of this, because this looks like an even bigger ally cluster than 7th ed.
and thats the problem... as others stated the ally clusterfeth contributed to most of the insane power gaming problems of 7th edition and to the general meta loss of fielding ONE army.
i see two possible outcomes (as far as the leaked rules go):
1. something in the lines of current alliies (ie the matrix chart or faction keyword based system) which would heavily favour imperial armies. its a bit toned down since some buffs will only apply to specific clustered faction-keywords and you cant attach chars to units anymore (although you still have chars with bubbles... so it shouldnt be that hard to layer multiple buffs on top of each other) but still... its not a good solution, especially for xeno armies like tau, orks or necrons
2. bring whatever you want as long as it can be represented with the detatchment or battle-froged-army system (ie the current streamline approach of 8th edition so far) that would be a terrible solution from a competitive PoV. since it would mean a clusterfeth of "fluffy" armies, where grey knights fight alongside daemons with the only downside is having less CP's
you can basically bring the best unit classes from any army. shooty units (tau eldar or whatever) then bring the best support unit (daemon or eldar psykers) maybe throw in some really hardcore killy unit (death company, berzerkers or grey knights) and something blobby (ork boyz or cultists) oh and dont forget some wraithknight/stomsurge/imperial knight awesomeness...
yes you can do something similar in 7th... but atleast there was the allies of convinienc (etc) thing which stopped the real powerful synergies
as far as i can tell right now, mixing your army up with silly combos far outweights the benefit of having a couple more CP's
i generally like the idea of having cool fluff armies (some daemons with CSM, guard mixed with a bit of SM, tyranids and cult etc...) but either disallow it for competitive play or restrict it to one ally detachment (maybe a couple to choose from) per fielded force and/or let the aux detatchment be the only way to bring in "foreign" elements into your army.
i dont know... maybe i'm to old for this gak or something... but nothing (so far) stops you to bring a patrol detachment of grey knights alongside a brigade detatchment of chaos daemons, and that just doesnt feel right... ... ...
but yes we will have to wait for the full release to fully grasp how 8th edition and allies will work
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/27 22:44:23
I see your point resnoak. But we have yet to see other strategies and I'm pretty sure some of the abilities on HQ war scrolls could be strategies or to have faction specific strategems.
As far as rules. Understand the leaked rules are only the core rules for all the ways to play.
Looking at the genestealers cult faction reveals and the battleforged tease. Both mention how your army is kind of restricted in how you can organize in matched play.
For instance the battleforged article says that matched play will restrict how many detachment you can bring.
In the faction focus they say genestealers cult can take one AM detachment per genestealers detachment.
So we can there that we have restrictions in matched play baked into that game style.
The core rule leaks suggest that you can just use any number of detachments and that each detachment can have its own internal restrictions such as must be all of the same faction -> Thus no real limits on allies
But the genestealer cult teaser kinda confused me. Am I missing something ?
One of my favourite aspects of the Genestealer Cults, though, is their ability to form their army using both their own faction, Tyranids and Astra Militarum, too. Huzzah! Due to the way that allies worked in the previous edition, making an army that mixed Genestealer Cult units and Astra Militarum wasn’t always straightforward. These are, of course, not “real” Astra Militarum, but devoted followers of the Cult who have turned from the Emperor’s light and betrayed their fellow man. The way it works in the new Warhammer 40,000 is really fun. You can take one Astra Militarum Detachment for each Genestealer Cults Detachment in your Battle-forged army. They each need to be entirely comprised of units with their respective keyword, but this allows incredible amounts of diversity in your army that is also quite characterful.
Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while
[...]
i see two possible outcomes (as far as the leaked rules go):
[...]
2. bring whatever you want as long as it can be represented with the detatchment or battle-froged-army system
(ie the current streamline approach of 8th edition so far)
that would be a terrible solution from a competitive PoV. since it would mean a clusterfeth of "fluffy" armies, where grey knights fight alongside daemons with the only downside is having less CP's
you can basically bring the best unit classes from any army. shooty units (tau eldar or whatever) then bring the best support unit (daemon or eldar psykers) maybe throw in some really hardcore killy unit (death company, berzerkers or grey knights) and something blobby (ork boyz or cultists) oh and dont forget some wraithknight/stomsurge/imperial knight awesomeness...
now that most of the rulebook is leaked... i didnt read anything forcing you to restrict your army to any faction. yes, a single detatchment can only be filled with units that share at least one faction key-word (so SM captain as HQ, sisters exorsist tank as heavy and two imperial vet squads for troops)
but nothing restricts you of bringing detatchments filled with units from other armys
ie 1 patrol detatchment of chaos SM and daemons, 1 brigade of tau, 1 patrol of grey knights and 1 superheavy eldar
now that most of the rulebook is leaked... i didnt read anything forcing you to restrict your army to any faction. yes, a single detatchment can only be filled with units that share at least one faction key-word (so SM captain as HQ, sisters exorsist tank as heavy and two imperial vet squads for troops)
but nothing restricts you of bringing detatchments filled with units from other armys
ie 1 patrol detatchment of chaos SM and daemons, 1 brigade of tau, 1 patrol of grey knights and 1 superheavy eldar
or did i miss somethin?
You indeed missed one thing.
This means no Gue'vesa, for example (T'au + AM) or Traitor Guard (Chaos + AM) until FW books hit the shelves.
[...]
i see two possible outcomes (as far as the leaked rules go):
[...]
2. bring whatever you want as long as it can be represented with the detatchment or battle-froged-army system
(ie the current streamline approach of 8th edition so far)
that would be a terrible solution from a competitive PoV. since it would mean a clusterfeth of "fluffy" armies, where grey knights fight alongside daemons with the only downside is having less CP's
you can basically bring the best unit classes from any army. shooty units (tau eldar or whatever) then bring the best support unit (daemon or eldar psykers) maybe throw in some really hardcore killy unit (death company, berzerkers or grey knights) and something blobby (ork boyz or cultists) oh and dont forget some wraithknight/stomsurge/imperial knight awesomeness...
now that most of the rulebook is leaked... i didnt read anything forcing you to restrict your army to any faction. yes, a single detatchment can only be filled with units that share at least one faction key-word (so SM captain as HQ, sisters exorsist tank as heavy and two imperial vet squads for troops)
but nothing restricts you of bringing detatchments filled with units from other armys
ie 1 patrol detatchment of chaos SM and daemons, 1 brigade of tau, 1 patrol of grey knights and 1 superheavy eldar
or did i miss somethin?
that is how I am reading it which is awesome because I want to loot a imperial knight as an ork imperial knight and just run it as a normal imperial knight good ballistic skill and all. I had been putting off this project until I saw it would be valid. additionally as the stompa is now even more of an overcosted turd I would run them as looted imperial knights, more durabls, better firepower and literally less than half the points why would you ever run a stompa
that is how I am reading it which is awesome because I want to loot a imperial knight as an ork imperial knight and just run it as a normal imperial knight good ballistic skill and all. I had been putting off this project until I saw it would be valid. additionally as the stompa is now even more of an overcosted turd I would run them as looted imperial knights, more durabls, better firepower and literally less than half the points why would you ever run a stompa
Read the post directly above yours. All units must share a keyword across an army in matched play. If you want a looted knight you need to play Open or Narrative.
that is how I am reading it which is awesome because I want to loot a imperial knight as an ork imperial knight and just run it as a normal imperial knight good ballistic skill and all. I had been putting off this project until I saw it would be valid. additionally as the stompa is now even more of an overcosted turd I would run them as looted imperial knights, more durabls, better firepower and literally less than half the points why would you ever run a stompa
Read the post directly above yours. All units must share a keyword across an army in matched play. If you want a looted knight you need to play Open or Narrative.
guess it saves me a few bucks on a stompa.... and means orks are once again going to be the worst army in the game from what I am reading... great just looking at points we are paying more for less than just about any slot heck rhinos are now cheaper (naked or with weapons) than a less durable trukk. the nerfs to cover means the heavy guns like lootas will also be removed in buckets, and eavy armor is not even a thing anymore. GW really needs to put on the team a rules writer who plays orks, this feels like the 6th edition codex all over again.
now that most of the rulebook is leaked... i didnt read anything forcing you to restrict your army to any faction. yes, a single detatchment can only be filled with units that share at least one faction key-word (so SM captain as HQ, sisters exorsist tank as heavy and two imperial vet squads for troops)
but nothing restricts you of bringing detatchments filled with units from other armys
ie 1 patrol detatchment of chaos SM and daemons, 1 brigade of tau, 1 patrol of grey knights and 1 superheavy eldar
or did i miss somethin?
You indeed missed one thing.
This means no Gue'vesa, for example (T'au + AM) or Traitor Guard (Chaos + AM) until FW books hit the shelves.
aahhh thx for the clarification. so no daemons combined with grey knights
but still... doesnt that favor the imperial (and traitor) armies ALOT???
especially for xeno armies its a big drawback... i dont know alot about other races (maybe someone can fill me in?)
but for example orks dont have any other armies they can ally with... (while SM, Sisters, Guard, big marines, inquisition, deathwatch etc can ally without restriction with each other)
furthermore buffs which were conferred to all ork units (army wide special rules like waaghh or painboy's fnp bubble) now only confer to specific clans. (so if you have a goff warboss, his waagh abilty only applies to goff models not to all ork units)
now that most of the rulebook is leaked... i didnt read anything forcing you to restrict your army to any faction. yes, a single detatchment can only be filled with units that share at least one faction key-word (so SM captain as HQ, sisters exorsist tank as heavy and two imperial vet squads for troops)
but nothing restricts you of bringing detatchments filled with units from other armys
ie 1 patrol detatchment of chaos SM and daemons, 1 brigade of tau, 1 patrol of grey knights and 1 superheavy eldar
or did i miss somethin?
You indeed missed one thing.
This means no Gue'vesa, for example (T'au + AM) or Traitor Guard (Chaos + AM) until FW books hit the shelves.
aahhh thx for the clarification. so no daemons combined with grey knights
but still... doesnt that favor the imperial (and traitor) armies ALOT???
especially for xeno armies its a big drawback... i dont know alot about other races (maybe someone can fill me in?)
but for example orks dont have any other armies they can ally with... (while SM, Sisters, Guard, big marines, inquisition, deathwatch etc can ally without restriction with each other)
furthermore buffs which were conferred to all ork units (army wide special rules like waaghh or painboy's fnp bubble) now only confer to specific clans. (so if you have a goff warboss, his waagh abilty only applies to goff models not to all ork units)
that sounds like a big discrepancy to me...
through 6th and 7th it has sort of been that way with the exception of the elder.
warhammer is the imperium of man 40% chaos 30% Eldar 25%. the other 5% just don't matter.
kind of infuriating that orks, tau, necrons, are out in the wind on their own. Necrons seem on paper to have gotten a huge buff so good for them. Tau probably got knocked down due to points into mid tier. orks get to stay garbage tier. again this is all just looking at rues and points we shall see how it plays out on the table but that is my predictions on the 3. (even Tyranids get genesteelers now)
RedNoak wrote: x for the clarification. so no daemons combined with grey knights
but still... doesnt that favor the imperial (and traitor) armies ALOT???
especially for xeno armies its a big drawback... i dont know alot about other races (maybe someone can fill me in?)
but for example orks dont have any other armies they can ally with... (while SM, Sisters, Guard, big marines, inquisition, deathwatch etc can ally without restriction with each other)
furthermore buffs which were conferred to all ork units (army wide special rules like waaghh or painboy's fnp bubble) now only confer to specific clans. (so if you have a goff warboss, his waagh abilty only applies to goff models not to all ork units)
that sounds like a big discrepancy to me...
Yes. In 7th I was making up some fluff to justify necrons as melee stuff for my Tau, but now this will be impossible in matched play. Either my group could house rule it away or GW could further restrict to have all faction keywords the same (putting everyone on the same level, allies-wise)
Battle-brother was, in my view, the real problem with allies table. Heck, even Allies of Convenience. Just make everyone like the old Desperate Allies, perhaps?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 23:16:51
chaos has 4 daemons alignments and the chaos marine legions
eldar, dark eldar and harlequins have great synergies especially with the introduction of ynari
at least tyranids got the genestealers, and genestealers i thik can ally to an extend with guards
but necrons, tau and orks on the other hand are total standalone armies
idk. i think the battlebrother/ally shenenigens were reason no 1 for the "bloated" powergame abusement. the new system doesnt really fix this. partly it got even worse. a tzeentch magus can be accompied by berzerkers now in one detachment. same goes for the imperial factions etc.
doesnt sound like an exiting solution :/
Grimgold wrote: The FoCs are pretty specific on the point that they have to have the same faction, It's not phrased as share at least one faction keyword. As a programmer that seems pretty clear, and the gamer in me sees the consequences of doing it otherwise being mixed Eldar, Necron and Ork FoCs since they all share the xeno keyword.
As Eldar, Necron and Orks don't have the Xeno keyword this isn't an issue. They cannot ally with each other.
Example:
Tactical Marines are IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, <CHAPTER> or IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, DARK ANGELS in the case of the Dark Angels Chapter.
A Rhino can be IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, DARK ANGELS and may transport 10 DARK ANGEL INFANTRY models.
Imperial Guard Heavy weapons squads are IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, <REGIMENT> or IMPERIUM, ASTRA MILITARUM, VOSTROYA in the case of the Vostroya regiment.
Inquistors are IMPERIUM, INQUISITION, <ORDO> or IMPERIUM, INQUISITION, ORDO XENOS in the case of an Inquistor (Ordo Xenos).
The inquisitor rules state Authority of the Inquistion, which means they may be transported on any IMPERIUM TRANSPORT. This is their special rule. As a result, they may ride on the rhino with the Marines but the heavy weapons squad may not.
1 Inquisitor(Ordo Xenos)
2 Dark Angel Tactical Squads
2 Dark Angel Rhinos
3 Imperial Guard (Vostroya) heavy weapon squads
Are a legal army that can be in a single force organization chart.
Chaos, Chaos Demons, Chaos Cultist, Chaos Questor all start with CHAOS, <MARK> So, you can ally all chaos, chaos demons, chaos cultist and chaos questor together.
Tyranid and Genestealer start with TYRANID and may ally together.
Eldar, Dark Eldar and Harlequins start AELDARI with and may ally together
Orks start with ORK
Necrons start with NECRON
T'au start with T'AU
A FOC must have at least 1 faction keyword in common.
Battleforged armies must have all FOC of the same faction. Battleforged armies are used in Match play.
So, for Narrative and Open play you may have FOC of different Keywords working together.
A FOC must have at least 1 faction keyword in common.
Battleforged armies must have all FOC of the same faction. Battleforged armies are used in Match play.
So, for Narrative and Open play you may have FOC of different Keywords working together.
The rulebook says, a model/unit can have different factions. They give an example of an SM Captain, stating the Captain Gas the imperium faction, the adeptus astartes faction and the chapter faction.
So to be from the Same faction, one shared keyword is enough.
Faction codexes will have faction specific warlord traits and strategems and relics. I think its very likely all of that stuff will only be usable if your battleforged army is made up entirely of the more specific keyword. So for example, You could have a Imperium army with Space Wolves and Dark Angles. or you can take a Dark Angles force and gain a access to DA specific strategems and warlord traits.
Some of the army rules already work that way. Ad Mech Canticles cannot be used unless your entire force is Ad Mech.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
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