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Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Nova Scotia

In the part regarding to hit rolls, it says rolls of 1 always fail regardless of any modifiers that may apply. So no auto hitting. It also says that for wounds and saves too, which is nice.
   
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





North idaho/ Washington

I haven't gotten too good of a look at all the changes to DE stuff yet (mainly waiting for the book) but I was wondering what peoples opinions are on an all coven list. Does it look decent or would it be better to add some kabal or harley stuff to it aswell?

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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine



San Diego, CA

 Solosam47 wrote:
I haven't gotten too good of a look at all the changes to DE stuff yet (mainly waiting for the book) but I was wondering what peoples opinions are on an all coven list. Does it look decent or would it be better to add some kabal or harley stuff to it aswell?


Right now it doesn't appear to be an effective army choice outside of Haemie/Wracks. Grotesques became more expensive and didn't gain any wounds (although, they did receive a 5++), lost rampage, and fearless. Talos/Cronos seem to be ok, but I haven't been sold.

I haven't had an opportunity to play 8th ed rules yet, but it appears that using Wracks and a Haemonculus as a t5 screen could be the best use of our troop slots.

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 Solosam47 wrote:
I haven't gotten too good of a look at all the changes to DE stuff yet (mainly waiting for the book) but I was wondering what peoples opinions are on an all coven list. Does it look decent or would it be better to add some kabal or harley stuff to it aswell?


I would not advise going PURE coven (i.e. limited only to Raiders Venoms Haemis Wracks Grots and Pain Engines) because you'll have a bear of a time dealing with any kind of vehicle. You'll want to add Ravagers, maybe a Voidraven, especially if playing matched where stuff like double Heat Lance talos tails are prohibitively expensive. Playing narrative where you can have every talos and wrack squad fully pimped for a set cost you will probably fare a bit better, as double HLs is expensive but does help deal a lot of damage. Taloi are a lot worse at mulching vehicles than they used to be, sadly, given their lack of good AP.

A basic gameplan would be something like

-4 squads of wracks in 2 DL raiders, each squad with a Hexrifle, an Ichor Injector, and an Ossefactor
-2 Haemies/Urien (I actually really like Urien in this edition, he's pretty much unsnipe-able, and if you're going to be footslogging it up the board he'd better be)
-A suite of pain engines like maybe 2 taloi 1 chronos
-A big grot squad for some meat
-some dedicated longrange anti tank like Ravagers/flyers.

focus fire on transports with all your lances, try to get enemy infantry out in the open as much as possible, and present a huge front of T6/T8 wounds with effectively 4++ invulns on everything between Insensible/PFP turn 1. If you have a turn where a juicy character is out in the open, don't move the Raiders and whack him with 4 hexrifle shots, if the hexes lack a great target then move the raiders up. Basically, try to leapfrog the raiders to keep the haemi buff on them, because you really want everything to hit on turn 3 all together, when you've got everybody hitting on 2s or autohits in melee and they're all still in the haemi buff.
   
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





North idaho/ Washington

Shame the coven lost some umph in matched, I should have tried em when they had their formations.

So solo coven is out, where do people see the coven in competitive? Just Haemis and wracks with maybe a pain engine or two accompanied by other eldar units? Can Grots have a place or are they just gonna be way sided you think? Im beginning to think maybe a wrack grot haemi anvil to a harli hammer.

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Sinewy Scourge




Birmingham

I think a pure coven list might work but you'll be relying on Haemi's for the +1T bubble a lot and Cronos for the wound regeneration bubble. However I think this would force you into a foot slogging list which has it's own vulnerabilities as well. The lack of reliable anti-tank in the list is a distinct problem though.
   
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Snord





Florida

I had this in another thread where the first list is at 1,000 points and the second brings it up to a 2,000 point game, but this is what I'm thinking of trying:

Battalion Detachment +3 Command Points

1 Haemonculus Hexrifle, Electrocorrosive Whip
1 Haemonculus Hexrifle, Electrocorrosive Whip
9 Wracks, 2 Liquifier Guns
9 Wracks, 2 Liquifier Guns
10 Kabalite Warriors, 1 Blaster, 1 Dark Lance
1 Raider Dark Lance, Shock Prow
1 Raider Dark Lance, Shock Prow
1 Raider Dark Lance, Shock Prow
5 Mandrakes

The haemonculus go with the Wracks in a Raider increasing the toughness of both making them even more durable with T4 and T6 respectively. These guys with their 5++ save and power from pain save should should be able to hold an objective and weather an attack as well as dishing it out with the flamers and CC. Haemonculous take pot shots at characters with the Hexrifle and do 2dmg in CC with each attack from the whip. Kabalite Warriors are a harassment unit applying their three str8 weapons (including Raider) plus splinter fire where needed. Mandrakes can appear on the table to get the drop on a character with hopefully some mortal wounds or grab an objective when you really need it.

Bringing the list up to 2,000 points I would add:

Air Wing Detachment +1 Command Point

1 Drazhar
9 Incubi
1 Raider, Dark Lance, Shock Prow
1 Voidraven Bomber 2 Void Lances, w//missiles
1 Voidraven Bomber 2 Void Lances, w//missiles
1 Voidraven Bomber 2 Void Lances, w//missiles
Add 2 more Mandrakes to the original unit.

The Voidravens are amazing damage output now now and only a few points more than a twin dark lance Razorwing. Taking three adds the detachment for another Command Point giving you +4 (7 command points total) now in the list. Drazhar becomes the warlord and goes with the Incubi (so they hit on 2's now) in another Dark Lance Raider. The list should be able to handle T7 or T8 transports/Vehicles while having enough bodies to engage in CC or hold down objectives.

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RE: the list above,

I think Haemonculi are going to always want to be on foot, and successful Coven lists will gravitate towards footslogging, for two reasons.

One, Haemi's bubble power turns off if he's in a transport, and two, if you don't have the haemi in the raider then you can fit 2 separate squads of wracks that gets you 1 extra acothyst compared to normal. In the games I've tried, the setup of 1 raider, and either 1 squad of wracks 1 squad of wyches or 2 squads of wracks has absolutely cleaned up. You can get 2 Hexrifles, 2 Ossefactors, and 2 Ichor Injectors and send the wracks off hunting high value monster targets while the pain engines and haemies go be bullies. Also, 5 hexrifles is about the point where they start being able to bring down 1 key character in the two turns your army is on the approach. 1 Commissar, or Apothecary, or Sanguinary priest your opponent won't have when the fighting starts.

The second half of your list I think is really solid, I would only worry about your ability to clean up low quality units and claim objectives (which is by number of models now, remember). Early drafts of competitive lists seem to indicate that we'll be seeing a lot of morale-immune or morale-don't care chaff squads of conscripts, gretchins, blazing horrors or poxwalkers, which double as proof against deep strike alpha strategies and grab loads of objectives.

If you were going to try and roll with that meta, Razorwing flocks backed up by a +2Ld'd beastmaster would be a quite solid option. To run counter it you might try something like a street-sweeper grotesque squad with liquifiers, or +A wyches with mass murderin' gear.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut






Which weapons are best for Archons? I'm thinking a blaster might be good and probably a huskblade. What do you guys think?

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Honestly, I think the best way to run an Archon now will be cheap as chips with a power weapon and a Blaster. Cheapest HQ we now have that has a nice little Leadership bubble and adds a decent 2+ Blaster to the mix.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Gargantuan wrote:
Which weapons are best for Archons? I'm thinking a blaster might be good and probably a huskblade. What do you guys think?


I'd take the Agonizer over the Huskblade. S3 means you'll never wound things on anything better than 4+, but a lot of times on 5+ and even 6+.
With the Agonizer you'll at least wound things half the time consistently.

The Blaster is just too good not to take. The same goes for the Phantasm Grenade Launcher.

Put him next to a few Sslyth Guards and he'll never die, kill things reliably in ranged combat, somewhat reliably in melee and strip the enemy of LD to make their losses more devastating, while boosting your own kabal troops whithin 6".

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Grotesques became more expensive and didn't gain any wounds (although, they did receive a 5++), lost rampage, and fearless


You know, I was just running the numbers today, and the Grots have actually come out a little bit ahead on damage numbers. Assuming a 2 on Rampage (and assuming you actually are out numbered in the first place), the old Grots would average around 1.04 MEqs on the charge where as the new ones average around 1.11.

Hitting on a 3+ and AP -1 go a long way, there. Also, they aren't as nearly dependent on Rampage or Charging to peak those numbers.

Haven't done the math yet comparing the old flesh gauntlets to the new ones against multi wound models, yet, although I think they might come out ahead as well.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut



Portland, OR

I played my first 8th ed. game on Tuesday, vs. my regular gaming buddy's Space Marines. From memory, the lists were something like:

Drukhari
Archon, Huskblade, Blast Pistol
Succubus, Glaive, Splinter Pistol (Combat Drugs: +1 WS)
Sslyth
10 Kabalites, Blaster, Dark Lance
10 Kabalites, Blaster, Splinter Cannon, Sybarite w S. Pistol, Agonizer and Phantasm Grenade Launcher in a Raider, Shock Prow, Disintegrator
10 Kabalites, Blaster, Splinter adrk Lance, Sybarite w S. Pistol, Agonizer and Phantasm Grenade Launcher in a Raider, Shock Prow, Dark Lance
10 Bloodbrides, 2 Hydra Gauntlets, 1 Razorflails, Syren with Agonizer, Phantasm Grenade Launcher and Blast Pistol (Combat Drugs: +1A) in a Raider, Shock Prow, Disintegrator
5 Incubi in a Venom with extra Cannon
5 Scourges, 4 Heat Lance, Solarite with Power Lance
5 Scourges, 4 Haywire Blasters
6 Reavers, 2 Heat Lance, Cluster Caltrops (Combat Drugs: +2 LD)
10 Hellions, Phantasm Grenade Launcher and Stunclaw (Combat Drugs: +1S)
Ravager, Shock Prow, 3 Dark Lance
Razorwing, 2 Disintegrator, Splinter Cannon
Venom, Extra Cannon, carried the Archon, Succubus and Sslyth

Space Marines:
Jump Chaplain, Plasma Pistol
Techmarine, Power Sword, Storm Bolter
Techmarine Gunner, Servoharness, Thunderfire
Apothecary
5 Tac Marines, Plasma, in a Razorback, twin Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter, HK Missile
5 Tac Marines, Flamer, in a Razorback, twin Lascannon, Storm Bolter, HK Missile
10 (?) Devastators, four Lascannons
5 Tac Marines, Missile Launcher
5 Tac Marines, Melta, Combi-Melta, in a Razorback, twin Assault Cannon, HK Missile
5 Assault Marines, two Plasma Pistols, Power Sword Sergeant?
Dreadnaught, twin Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter
Dreadnaught, two twin Autocannon X2
2 X Land Speeder, Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon

I may be missing something, that seems about right. 110 Power Levels, we just assembled armies we liked the look of and went for it.

My takeaways from the game about Drukhari:
Blood Brides are really good, seriously. The extra attack is fantastic compared to Wyches and the extra from Drugs makes them murder machines. Go Hydra Gauntlets, they are really good. The Succubus makes them pretty much never miss in conjunction with PFP bonuses, so Razorflails aren't that great. The minus one to saves in CC are better than you might think. Agonizer is same as ever. The speed and resilience of the Raider makes you able to deliver the more fragile units that pack a punch. Succubus with Glaive and +1 WS kills things dead. They killed most of the Devastators, a 5 man tac squad, the Power Sword Techmarine, and the Apothecary. Not bad at all for the points/Power Levels!

Archon is still not amazing, sadly. The Sslyth is decent but I never really got mixed up in combat with either model properly.

Incubi are dead killy still, but more fragile.

I didn't utilize my Hellions right, they did nada. This was my mistake, I think I should have charged a Dreadnaught or vehicle with them but I tried to use them in a supporting/sucking overwatch role. They died, and killed nothing. My Scourges had abysmal luck in shooting, but their saves plus PFP tanked a lot of wounds.

I made the mistake of engaging armour with Reavers with Heat Lance. It doesn't really work. Heat Lances are in a weird place and do way less against armour now. I think that both Scourges and Reavers have role-shifted to Elite or Character assassins rather than armour hunters, at least with Lances. Cluster Caltrop wording is terrible, it can be interpreted as you fall back or I fall back to trigger them. The latter makes more sense to me as Caltrops are usually a deterrent to pursuit, but it can be interpreted the other way too. The later is certainly better. I actually think the LD bump drugs may be a good way to go since though they are arguably tougher from the extra wounds, they really feel casualties.

The Razorwing did a LOT of work. It probably tied with my Brides for most killy unit. The Shatterfield Missile is solid.

Raiders are just so much more surviveable, it's much easier to get models around with them.

Dark Lances- bring them and bring several. Command rerolls make them much better. We need a reliable way to crack armour and Heat Lances aren't that anymore.

I was impressed with both the Phantasm Grenade Launcher and Darklight Grenades. Both can be very nasty. Power From Pain is now excellent and Combat Drugs not being random is great.

Overall, I really like the way Drukhari played. They feel much less dependent on your luck being consistently good and more about being tactical in movement and combat.

On Marines vs. Drukhari
The Assault Cannon and Missile Launcher (ank HK missile) are pretty nasty now, watch out. Both can make short work of our transports. Storm Bolters are awesome, not overwhelmingly so but they do pump out a lot of fire. Plan on having a rough time taking out Dreadnaughts and tanks unless you can hit them with a lot of Dark Lances or perhaps Monsters. We are WAY better at killing in Close Combat thanks to vast improvement on Wyches/Bloodbrides. The invulnerable save and starting with a 6+ to ignore Wounds is awesome when you can actually use them instead of being killed on the way in.
   
Made in ca
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Nova Scotia

I used a Crimson Hunter wing in a game I played and they were absolutely fantastic. It was against tyranids and I was able to crush all of the monsters (and there were lots!). Those bright/dark lances are fantastic. Can't wait to try out the Razorwing (I like the flexibility of the missiles).

I've been hearing good things about Heat Lances but they are very pricy. Might be good against sniping characters as you say because with the reavers you're likely able to get into a better position with a super fast advance. Plus the combat drugs for extra movement can help with that too.

Not sure what to do with hellions but the 2 damage seems really good (except no AP if memory serves).

I think the wyches would be best served with hydra gauntlets as well. They are going to have an easier time hitting with the buffs from the succubus and the rerolling the wounding is for sure beneficial since you're likely wounding things on a 5+ (combat drugs notwithstanding).

I'm glad that we aren't flying around in wet paper airplanes anymore, haha.

Thanks for the analysis!
   
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Dakka Veteran




So, I was running numbers for Scourges. Some interesting things. Scourge is 14 points based with the shardcarbine. Assault 3 poisony goodness. Scourge with Splinter Cannon is 29 points. Which means twice the cost of Scourges with shardcarbines. Since it's all poisony goodness, that means 2 Scourges put out exactly the same firepower at 18", only losing out 3 shots at 18"-36" range. Given how fast they are, it may be worth just running 10 man units of Scourges for 140 points - they dump out 30 poison shots a turn which isn't shabby at all. Alternatively, if you want to be able to play the distance game you probably want the 5 Scourges with 4 Splinter Cannons for 130 points - you still put out 27 shots at 18" range, but gain 12 shots at up to 36" range. The downside being you have less models to contest objectives, are easier to kill for VPs and start losing heavy weapons from the second casualty on.

I was also looking at all the assault anti-tank stuff against Toughness 8 vehicles. All this on Scourges.

4 Heat Lances 170 points
2.68 hits
.88 - maybe cause 3-5 wounds if within 9"

4 Blasters 130 points
2.68 hits
1.34 wound - 2 damage on average

4 Haywire Blasters 102 points

2.68 hits
1-2 mortal wounds, probably causes no wounds itself.

And for completeness

4 Dark Lances 150 points
2.68 hits
1.34 wound - 2-4 damage on average

Heat Lances are so bloody expensive and don't seem worth the extra cost. If they were the same cost as Blasters I'd still be tempted to take the Blasters just for Str 8 vs Str 6.

I also ran some math on Disintegrators vs Dark Lances against toughness 7-8 3+ save. They actually end up being very, very, very close in expected damage with Disintegrators only being slightly behind. And those are the best targets for Dark Lances. In the event the enemy runs a spam list, Disintegrators still get good value.

The only issue is the cost premium. Disintegrators cost 10 points more each compared to Dark Lances. And of course, they can only be found on vehicles. Still, spamming Disintegrators is a good way to cover both tough vehicles and still get value vs hordes.

Holy cow though, it looks like Dark Eldar Flyers are where it's at. Razorwings and Voidraven both seem to be better for the points than Ravagers, at roughly the same cost with all sorts of killy death. Voidraven being excellent against big tough things and Razorwings against most everything else. Plust that mine tho. Hope your opponent has a unit of monsters or sentinels or kans or buggies or what have you, because you can average 2 Mortal wounds a piece on vehicles or monsters in a single unit. Or just drop 7 or so on a unit with at least 10 guys.

I also ran the numbers on Shredders as a note. They are bad. Just very very bad. They are substantially worse than flamers against infantry and you are still better of with pretty much any other option.
   
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Devastating Dark Reaper




Australia

Thanks for the math on Scourges Anarchist, very in line with what I was thinking. Due to Haywire & Heat Lances being trash this edition, Scourges are in a bit of a weird place - their best two options seem to be running them at base for the deepstrike splinter fire, or running them in a venom with 4 splinter cannons for a combined 18/39 shots at 36/18" range.

For Dark Lances, they seem outclassed by Ravagers, who have one less shot but are leagues more durable and able to move & shoot with no penalty. I hope they buff HLs and HBs in the future, as well as Shredders & Blasters, because the options for units like Scourges and Trueborn are looking a bit thin this edition.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut



Portland, OR

I do think Heat Lances will be good against T6 Monsters and light vehicles, as well as things like Terminators. They have a use for sure. Requiring a 5 to wound on tanks makes them less reliable than I'd like. For single-shot weapons you need a degree of reliability if you hit. I actually never loved Dark Lances but they seem a necessary evil now.

I for one am ok with fliers being a little easier to take down but being a strong source of firepower.

On Disintegrators, I had the thought they might work better due to weight of fire but my dice were pretty cold against all the armour. Another game or two is probably in order soon.
   
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pontiac, michigan; usa

Void raven with it's void mine will be a thing. Dark lances look good and even better on ravagers which sound like a must have now. Scourge sound decent but same role. Hellions sound like they won't suck as bad and might be worth taking (a shocker because they sucked in our 7th book). Reavers might not be as good but they have more wounds now, are still faster than almost everything else and they sound like a decent gun platform instead of melee now (which is a totally odd role change).

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aushlo wrote:
I do think Heat Lances will be good against T6 Monsters and light vehicles, as well as things like Terminators. They have a use for sure. Requiring a 5 to wound on tanks makes them less reliable than I'd like. For single-shot weapons you need a degree of reliability if you hit. I actually never loved Dark Lances but they seem a necessary evil now.

I for one am ok with fliers being a little easier to take down but being a strong source of firepower.

On Disintegrators, I had the thought they might work better due to weight of fire but my dice were pretty cold against all the armour. Another game or two is probably in order soon.


Heat Lances would be good at those things, if they weren't 25 points each. They are simply too expensive and limited. Blasters I think are fine overall for 15 points. 18" assault anti tank weapon for that price? Other races are paying 17 for 12" range Meltas. Which are better in their own way but Blasters are far more flexible ranged wise.

I wouldn't take them on Scourges though. Why give up a shardcarbine for them when you can just load a batch of trueborn in a Venom and be giving up only rifles?


   
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Portland, OR

I assume we pay extra for Heat Lances because of the platform being so fast.
   
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine



San Diego, CA

aushlo wrote:
I assume we pay extra for Heat Lances because of the platform being so fast.


Most melta weapons pay a premium, it's not just ours.

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Devastating Dark Reaper




Australia

aushlo wrote:
I assume we pay extra for Heat Lances because of the platform being so fast.
I don't think that's really how weapon costing works this edition, mobility is factored into base cost. Blasters are the same on Warriors and Scourges after all!
Heat Lances are terribly overpriced, compare them to the cheaper 22 point Firepike for example, one extra AP is rubbish compared to +2 strength.
   
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Tail Gunner





Anyone notice that Archons don't have combat drugs? What a kick in the nuts- my guess is they felt that leadership 11 archons (or 12 if you take the +1ld warlord trait!) would be too powerful in conjunction with his aura, but god damn he really does seem useless compared to his rival HQs. It's especially goofy that he can't take them yet the notoriously straight-edge Lelith can.

Anyway, how do you guys think we'll hold up in this horde/fast assault edition? I was watching Reecius' game against Frankie and Reece' kans really tore Frankie's Deldar a new one, though Frankie didn't do a very good job of trying to keep his raiders out of assault range.

 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut



Portland, OR

I think we'll do just fine against horde. We have some of the best anti-infantry mobile firepower in the game. Probably need to really focus fire to make gaps for our transports though.
   
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Dakka Veteran




One concern I have is splinter cannon cost more than other factions anti infantry heavy weapons while wounding on 4+ instead of 3+. Plus they often get AP -1

Does the six shots make up for that? Can anyone run the numbers for heavy bolters, shuriken cannons?

We could actually have problems against hordes.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




I'm thinking our best option against hordes will be to punch them in the face. That or just mass basic splinter fire.

Splinter Cannon is okay against MEq but it's never been great against anything lower the MEq. It's always shined against T5+ non vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Liquifier Guns and pretty much all of the Cronos's weapons might be sold against Horde as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/11 22:21:42


 
   
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Tail Gunner





Anyone try running blasterborn in a venom? Yo can get a squad of five with four blasters in it for only 115 points. Putting them in a venom with two splintercannons takes it up to 240 points..

That seems really not bad for a unit that's dishing out 4 str8 rend4 shots and 12 poison shots at 18".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/15 19:20:59


 
   
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine



San Diego, CA

You should never take the splinter cannon upgrade on venoms. You're paying the same price for the weapon with only a minor upgrade to damage output. Save the points and spend it on something else.

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Guarding Guardian




Northern Sweden

Splinter Cannons on Scourges are good if you want to load them onto a Venom and keep them as a gunboat. They effectively double its transport capacity and Scourges aren't affected by any aura anyway so you don't loose out on that.

They're an alternative to Blaster-born in Venoms or Raiders, only filling a different role.

Actually for only a few points extra, granting them double movement speed, <Fly>, Deepstrike, +1 Armor, 6+ Invul while losing -1A per model and the possible Archon aura giving them +1Ld, is there really any reason to take them over Trueborn unless strapped for points?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/17 16:37:34


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