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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Well, they only have a 27% chance of pulling of the charge on a single roll. And isn't their real value protecting the following squad anyway. Even with the charging squad being within range, 7 auto hits from the flamers, 3.5 wounds,versus 6+ save 3 applied wounds, 5+ save 2 applied wounds, 4+ save 1 applies wound, 3+ 1 applied wound.

Your other three will at best do 1 applied wound with the 6+ overwatch.

So realistically 5 man tac squad will dish out 2 applied wounds to a charging unit...

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Made in ca
Bounding Assault Marine






Pedroig wrote:
Well, they only have a 27% chance of pulling of the charge on a single roll. And isn't their real value protecting the following squad anyway. Even with the charging squad being within range, 7 auto hits from the flamers, 3.5 wounds,versus 6+ save 3 applied wounds, 5+ save 2 applied wounds, 4+ save 1 applies wound, 3+ 1 applied wound.

Your other three will at best do 1 applied wound with the 6+ overwatch.

So realistically 5 man tac squad will dish out 2 applied wounds to a charging unit...


Ah, thanks for the calculations, appreciate that. That's fairly respectable, don't you think?
They are performing as a meat shield in a way, but scouts would 30 points cheaper just for that. I do like the Assaultd6 on 2 flamers though in an advance move. That alone might be enough to deter units from ramming right into my mid-field squads.

I've also taken a second look at the Intercessor squad, which seems like a pretty solid 100p option actually, and I'm coming around to them ascetically in terms of them being bigger.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 02:35:05


 
   
Made in us
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Scouts with Shotties would be a good shield, Assault 2, range of 12", with bonus Str within 6"...

si vis pacem, para bellum 
   
Made in ca
Bounding Assault Marine






Pedroig wrote:
Scouts with Shotties would be a good shield, Assault 2, range of 12", with bonus Str within 6"...


Yeah for sure, probably a bit better than Scouts w/ combat knives. But... I got a squad of scouts a few weeks ago and already glue them together with knives, so that settles that. :/
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

I played a 1000 pt game against Orks with my Crimson Fists. He brought a ton of Boyz and some Nobs and Gretchin. My list was as follows:
Pedro Kantor
3 Company Veterans with a Power Sword and 2x Mauls
Company Ancient with a Power Mail
Apothecary
Razorback with Twin Heavy Bolter
2x Combi-Plasma and Plasmagun Tactical Squad
2x Rhinos with Storm Bolter
Scout Squad with Boltguns
Devastators with 4x Lascannons

So my Elite unit chewed up whatever came at it and Pedro killed all the Nobs on his own. The Boyz were just too numerous for the Tactical Squads, they were eaten up in one turn. The Scouts took down 20 Gretchin on their own, which was funny. The Lascannons definitely kill single things well. They took out a Deff Dread. It seems to work best if they Focus Fire though.

Overall, we called the game a tie since we lost track of points. The takeaway for me was that I need stuff that can deal with hordes. So I am redoing my 2000 pt list and adding a Vindicator. I might take out the Ancient and add a fourth Company Veteran. This might free up some space to make the Rhinos into Razorbacks with bigger guns like Twin Assault Cannons. I look forward to more games though.

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Made in ca
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





One build I'm gonna be experimenting with is a new way to do assault squads. giving the squad 3 plasma pistols and not bothering with a power weapon for the sergent, might have some intreasting effects. the assault Marines will definatly "prefer" softer targets. but they have eneugh plasma that if forced into a fight with heavy infantry they'll potentially inflict some damage. at the very least someone running a terminator squad would have to stop and think if he really wants to risk getting in CC and trading most of a terminator squad for an assault squad.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
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Sioux Falls, SD

One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.

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On the Internet

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.

With splitting fire being s thing you could run two of each.
   
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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.


Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

ClockworkZion wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.

With splitting fire being s thing you could run two of each.
This is how I used to run my Devastators (since the old kit didn't have enough to make a full squad). I may have to try it out.

stratigo wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.


Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.
Yeah, and those T8 things have enough wounds that the Lascannon will be necessary. I will have to explore alternate methods of dealing with hordes since I refuse to list tailor.

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Deathwatch: 1500 pts
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Made in au
Roarin' Runtherd






stratigo wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.


Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.

Yeah, and those T8 things have enough wounds that the Lascannon will be necessary. I will have to explore alternate methods of dealing with hordes since I refuse to list tailor.


Would plasma cannons work as a potential alternative? Could maybe have two squads of 5 + a primaris lieutenant to reroll the wounds caused by supercharging?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/05 13:59:34


 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 Jangus wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.


Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.

Yeah, and those T8 things have enough wounds that the Lascannon will be necessary. I will have to explore alternate methods of dealing with hordes since I refuse to list tailor.


Would plasma cannons work as a potential alternative? Could maybe have two squads of 5 + a primaris lieutenant to reroll the wounds caused by supercharging?
Plasma Cannons aren't really that much better than Plasma Guns. The Plasma Cannon only has the potential to do more shots(33% chance to do the same number), while the Plasma Gun will always do 2 shots at half range (66% chance to do the same as a Cannon).

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On the Internet

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Jangus wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.


Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.

Yeah, and those T8 things have enough wounds that the Lascannon will be necessary. I will have to explore alternate methods of dealing with hordes since I refuse to list tailor.


Would plasma cannons work as a potential alternative? Could maybe have two squads of 5 + a primaris lieutenant to reroll the wounds caused by supercharging?
Plasma Cannons aren't really that much better than Plasma Guns. The Plasma Cannon only has the potential to do more shots(33% chance to do the same number), while the Plasma Gun will always do 2 shots at half range (66% chance to do the same as a Cannon).

Biggest advantage for the cannon is range over the plasma gun. That said, it's still more of an elite model killer in nature than an anti-tank weapon.
   
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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.


Well, I think you only are considering Missile Dev's because you ran up against a horde army. In all other cases Las Cannons are better, and even against hordes I'd rather have Heavy Bolters on the cheap. Why not mix your Dev squad into 2 Las & 2 of something else (Missile or Heavy Bolter or Plasma Cannons)?
Plasma Cannons can benefit from the Signum ability in Devastator squads too, don't forget. And are effective against everything, though mostly elites.

Also, I'd consider swapping out the Rhinos in your list. Not too many more points for a Razorback w/ Heavy Bottlers which would have chewed up hordes -if you can spare the points somewhere.
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

 benlac wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.


Well, I think you only are considering Missile Dev's because you ran up against a horde army. In all other cases Las Cannons are better, and even against hordes I'd rather have Heavy Bolters on the cheap. Why not mix your Dev squad into 2 Las & 2 of something else (Missile or Heavy Bolter or Plasma Cannons)?
Plasma Cannons can benefit from the Signum ability in Devastator squads too, don't forget. And are effective against everything, though mostly elites.

Also, I'd consider swapping out the Rhinos in your list. Not too many more points for a Razorback w/ Heavy Bottlers which would have chewed up hordes -if you can spare the points somewhere.
Definitely. But Scrounging up 20 pts is going to be a little hard. The Ancient is probably going to just be turned into a regular Veteran with a Power Axe. Should free up some points. Enough for the Heavy Bolters for sure.

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I was looking at running a squad of Hellblasters with a captain in a drop pod but then realised the drop pod couldn't transport them Reckon they'll be getting transport options?
   
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 Jangus wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
One thing I dislike about 8th so far is that sometimes fluffy armies kind of suck. Other than my HQ, my army was fairly balanced. I guess I should have run missile Devs instead of Lascannons Devs. There aren't too many instances where the Lascannon Dev ends up better than the Missile Dev.


Lascannons have 1 more strength, a big deal if you notice how common a toughness of 8 is in the game for big gribblies, and have 1 more ap, also useful. And they cost the same points.

Yeah, and those T8 things have enough wounds that the Lascannon will be necessary. I will have to explore alternate methods of dealing with hordes since I refuse to list tailor.


Would plasma cannons work as a potential alternative? Could maybe have two squads of 5 + a primaris lieutenant to reroll the wounds caused by supercharging?


Cannons? Maybe. Though at max you are getting 12 shots. I think if plasma is really your thing, you grab either sternguard with combis, or hellblasters for maximum shootiness.

You'd have to math it out really, and I'm not the math guy XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jangus wrote:
I was looking at running a squad of Hellblasters with a captain in a drop pod but then realised the drop pod couldn't transport them Reckon they'll be getting transport options?


There's already been a leak (Was it a leak or an announcement?) of a grav tank transport sometime in the future.

I mean, I'd legitimately urge people to hold off buying new models until the actual codex comes out and all the options are revealed. Unless you really dig the models and want to paint them up, then go for it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 16:58:57


 
   
Made in au
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stratigo wrote:
stratigo wrote:
 Jangus wrote:
I was looking at running a squad of Hellblasters with a captain in a drop pod but then realised the drop pod couldn't transport them Reckon they'll be getting transport options?


There's already been a leak (Was it a leak or an announcement?) of a grav tank transport sometime in the future.

I mean, I'd legitimately urge people to hold off buying new models until the actual codex comes out and all the options are revealed. Unless you really dig the models and want to paint them up, then go for it.


Do we have any idea when the codex is coming out? I was really looking forward to roasting some nid bugs haha

Oh lord just looked up that grav tank and eugh; I don't know how I feel about floating SM tanks. I just want to drop pod them, is that too much to ask?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/05 17:19:10


 
   
Made in us
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Played two games at 1500 with a fairly junk list that i threw together

1 plan captain
1 terminator chaplain
3 10 man tacs with mixed heavy and special and power weapons
a rhino
and drop of two of them
2 ironclads
1 Vindicator
things i leared.

Ironclads are freaky good if you manage to get them into CC. 1 shotted a rhino which proceeded to wreck 4 chosen. another basically 1 shotted a daemon prince.
Vindicators are kinda meh i feel. it didnt really perform all that well.
Plasma is some serious hotness with the option of not having to overcharge. came handy when taking out chaff while having the option to drop wounds on vehicles
Pistols are really awesome as an extra attack while locked in CC (unless we played that wrong)
Tac marines dont really do anything. dont expect them to do anything effective unless targeting other mooks.
vehicles are skookum AF especially when using cover.
drop pods are surprising useful for contesting points on the back field for linebreaker just like last edition. they are also very tough to kill outside of dedicated anti tank (pretty obvious i know)
i need to try and make a cohesive list now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 18:03:42


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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A Dark Place

I am loving every variation of scouts so far. The bikers are crazy value. The forward deployment is great if you can get into cover on/near objectives: cheap way to get a heavy bolter right up front.

The 'speeders durability has made them my firm favourite for harrassment, and the stormtalon puts out a crazy amount of dakka with that TL-Assault Cannon/double HB zipping all over the board.

And the Vindicator, ooft. Effective 34" range hitting on 4's.
Captain granting re-rolls to hit alongside a Dev squad; jump-pack characters with power weapons assaulting Flyers.

Just a lot of great stuff for fast and hard-hitting playstyles.

darefsky wrote:Heck I have had times where I have sat down to paint, gotten everything ready, looked at it and went "nope I'm done."
 
   
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A squad of Vindicators near a Captain on a bike seems like it would be pretty effective.

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On the Internet

So some notes from the perspective of a Templar player (originally posted on B&C but reposting here):
✠ Sword Brethren are essentially back. Company Veterans are a wonderful source for a unit of up to 5 models (minimum of one vet and one sarge) who come with bolt pistols and chainswords. They can be kitted with a number of options, and are able to take storm shields to keep them from being AP'd out as easilly. Still only 1 wound, they are still a noteworthy option for people who want Sword Brethren without running Sternguard or Vanguard squads. And they have access to bikes where they get a bump to 2 wounds and T5. If you're taking them for melee, bikes are likely the best method in terms of crunch just because they gain both mobility and durability. Using them as a replacement for a squad of combis or special weapons in lieu of Sternguard (as Sternguard lose their 30" range -2 AP bolters for swapping) is likely the best choice, and they can even share a Drop Pod with another small unit (of more vets or a character like the Emperor's Champion who wants to get up close and personal with the enemy) to sow chaos as soon as turn 1 if needed.

✠ Find room for an Ancient in your lists. Not only do they buff your Ld, they give your models a chance to fight when killed. On a 4+ a model who is slain within 6" of a banner gets to punch or shoot (as appropiate) one last time before going down (Bonus points if you have an Apothecary to try and bring the guy back on a 4+ the next turn too). Basically if you want a big unit, you,ll probably want one of these banners near it (or wrapped protectively by said unit) as it will let your models go down swinging and potentially taking their killer with them.

✠ The Emperor's Champion is basically a special character version of the Chapter Champion. Same base stats and the Chapter Champ gets rerolls against characters as well. Perhaps a cheaper alternative for smaller games?

✠ Just a reminder, because I forgot about this before, but most of the Razorback's options are twin linked, meaning double the shots. Twin Assault Cannons on one are going to shoot 12 S6, -1AP, D1 shots. Plus the Stormbolter shots. While not the level of the LRC, it's a cheaper option for your MSU style squads (for example: If you're running Company Vets in a tank, this is probably the best way to go if you're trying to keep points costs down). TL Heavy Flamers might be the shortest range turret option, but with them being Assault enjoy advancing and burninating with no penalites. You won't be as fast as a Baal Rhino chassis, but you will have to less problems with glitter mysteriously ending up on your armour.

✠ For those who like keeping Devastators in their lists, rejoice for mixed weapons no longer prevent you from being useful. Mix it up for a cheaper unit that can handle more threats. My preference is no more than 2 kinds of weapons, but monobuilds are still good since you can split fire to prevent overkilling things. Plus Plasma cannons don't suck anymore.

✠ Thunderfire Cannons are looking solid despite losing their multiple firing modes. 60", Heavy 4d3, S5, AP0, D1, no line of sight required. Average should be around 8 shots a turn, so it can dish out a fair amount of fire power. Sadly there is no rule that lets you use the Gunner's 2+ BS, so you,ll be hitting on 3s most of the time. Basically don't expect it to kill whole units on it's own, but it has solid potential to put put a fair amount of damage still. Plus it's only a 104 points total making it a strong Heavy Support choice for smaller games since it can be hidden out of LoS and still be effective over large areas.

✠ Vindicators are still beastly weapons with S10, -3AP and D6 damage, but they only fire D3 shots against units of 4 or less and D6 against units of 5 or more. While I understand the change as a means to keep players from running it as our dedicated tank killer, frankly with that profile it feels like it works better against tanks and MCs than it does flushing out hordes like it used to. Due to points and FOC changes, I expect less of these to end up on the table at a time and instead be supported by other options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 19:07:57


 
   
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Gotta say Space Marines Scout Squads (especially the bikes who come equipped with multiple weapons) are a tad OP this edition for their mere points cost

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 19:28:42


 
   
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Is it just me or is lysander cheaper than a similarly kitted out termy captain?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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On the Internet

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Gotta say Space Marines Scout Squads (especially the bikes who come equipped with multiple weapons) are a tad OP this edition for their mere points cost

Scouts used to be 10 points, they went up to 11 in the new edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Desubot wrote:
Is it just me or is lysander cheaper than a similarly kitted out termy captain?

A lot of the special characters have gotten suspiciously cheaper when compared to their generic counterparts.

Not sure what to think about it yet. Perhaps a trade off for them being the source of CT like rules at the moment and the fact we're locked to only 1 of each keeps us spamming them like we can the generic ones?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 19:32:36


 
   
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A Dark Place

 ClockworkZion wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Gotta say Space Marines Scout Squads (especially the bikes who come equipped with multiple weapons) are a tad OP this edition for their mere points cost

Scouts used to be 10 points, they went up to 11 in the new edition.


Aye but the bikers are 75 for 3, coming with an extra attack (combat knife), T5, 2w, TL-Boltguns and Shotguns for 6 shots S4, each, @ >12" and moving 14" a turn.
That's pretty sweet.

darefsky wrote:Heck I have had times where I have sat down to paint, gotten everything ready, looked at it and went "nope I'm done."
 
   
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Sioux Falls, SD

 Desubot wrote:
Is it just me or is lysander cheaper than a similarly kitted out termy captain?
it's because he has no shooting whatsoever.

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 ClockworkZion wrote:
✠ Thunderfire Cannons are looking solid despite losing their multiple firing modes. 60", Heavy 4d3, S5, AP0, D1, no line of sight required. Average should be around 8 shots a turn, so it can dish out a fair amount of fire power. Sadly there is no rule that lets you use the Gunner's 2+ BS, so you,ll be hitting on 3s most of the time. Basically don't expect it to kill whole units on it's own, but it has solid potential to put put a fair amount of damage still. Plus it's only a 104 points total making it a strong Heavy Support choice for smaller games since it can be hidden out of LoS and still be effective over large areas.


I think your math might be off I got 134pts for the TFC. For me it loses out easily to the Castallen Launcher Whirlwind. At 115pts it's 72" S6 2d6 shots has been nothing short of amazing so far. Especially if you can tie your enemy up on the forefront, these babies just stand back and rock units/light vehicles.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
Is it just me or is lysander cheaper than a similarly kitted out termy captain?
it's because he has no shooting whatsoever.


Neither does a TH SS captain in terminator armor.

anyway i think clock might be right. its probably opportunity discount.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 Desubot wrote:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Desubot wrote:
Is it just me or is lysander cheaper than a similarly kitted out termy captain?
it's because he has no shooting whatsoever.


Neither does a TH SS captain in terminator armor.

anyway i think clock might be right. its probably opportunity discount.
But TH/SS could have taken a shooting weapon, while Lysander could not. I think the prevailing wisdom seems to be that locked wargear choices get a discount. Which makes sense, if you think about it. And, like Clock said, Chapter Tactics will eventually restrict that even more. Want the cool ability from the Iron Hands? Well, no Lysander for you.

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