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 Galas wrote:
They have confirmed it:

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
ability is triggered before applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)
moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst
within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’
ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
Re-rolls are applied before modifiers. In this example a single
dice is re-rolled because of the Captain’s ability, this time
resulting in a 3.
Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this example there is
a -1 modifier to the hit rolls for moving and firing a Heavy
weapon. That means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5 are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the
model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target

But ironically, Plasma Guns ignore this, so they only count if they have a 1 after all modifiers and rerrols.

Eh? Plasma guns don't ignore it at all. They even address it directly in the next question- you apply the reroll and modifiers, and if the final result is 1, it triggers the death (or mortal wound) result.
So if you roll a one, reroll, get a 2 and take -1 from moving you end up with a 1 and die.

Yep. This was cleared up in a way I honestly find a bit counter intuitive. Basically, anyone with a hit modifier like -2 that some had, is immune to super charged plasma, because there is NO WAY you're gonna be using that on them.

It also means you'll never move a heavy weapon and then super charge it. Just too risky. But that is actually sort of reasonable.

Voss wrote:

 Galas wrote:
They have confirmed it:

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
ability is triggered before applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)
moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst
within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’
ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
Re-rolls are applied before modifiers. In this example a single
dice is re-rolled because of the Captain’s ability, this time
resulting in a 3.
Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this example there is
a -1 modifier to the hit rolls for moving and firing a Heavy
weapon. That means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5 are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the
model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target

But ironically, Plasma Guns ignore this, so they only count if they have a 1 after all modifiers and rerrols.

Eh? Plasma guns don't ignore it at all. They even address it directly in the next question- you apply the reroll and modifiers, and if the final result is 1, it triggers the death (or mortal wound) result.
So if you roll a one, reroll, get a 2 and take -1 from moving you end up with a 1 and die.

Ok! Sorry, I understand it at the inverse of how it works

I did hear this explained to me in way that made it sound reasonable:

There are a lot of "reroll 1s" abilities in the game now. If you rerolled after modifiers, a 2 with a -1 would be a reroll. That actually makes an ability that gives a -1 into a buff instead of a debuff, as it is letting you reroll a 2 that you couldn't. Coming at it from that angle it starts to make sense, although I agree that it is still weird in some cases.

 Galas wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Galas wrote:
They have confirmed it:

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example,
‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites
of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or
after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll
ability is triggered before applying modifiers.
For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+)
moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst
within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’
ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
Re-rolls are applied before modifiers. In this example a single
dice is re-rolled because of the Captain’s ability, this time
resulting in a 3.
Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this example there is
a -1 modifier to the hit rolls for moving and firing a Heavy
weapon. That means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5 are modified to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the
model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target

But ironically, Plasma Guns ignore this, so they only count if they have a 1 after all modifiers and rerrols.

Eh? Plasma guns don't ignore it at all. They even address it directly in the next question- you apply the reroll and modifiers, and if the final result is 1, it triggers the death (or mortal wound) result.
So if you roll a one, reroll, get a 2 and take -1 from moving you end up with a 1 and die.

Ok! Sorry, I understand it at the inverse of how it works

Erh you guys were saying the same thing!!

It seems as though "a roll" is the definition of the end result of a test, after rerolls and modifiers have applied. But they also use "roll" to define the unmodified dieroll during a test, which makes things confusing. But the rules for rerolls are clear, they can only happen before modifiers apply so one must realise that a hitroll can be considered successful during the time that rerolls are allowed, but then be modified into a failure after the reroll possibility have passed.

Its unintuitive and badly worded but probably makes sense for balancing somehow.


Maybe they should have used "roll" to define the actual dieroll and "result" for when modifiers have applied.

Yeah, I think that would be more clear.

Rolling a one usually means literally that: the die comes up with a 1 on top.

A result is the final score after cover/AP/hit modifiers or whatever.

I get it, but it would save time and needless confusion if modifiers just modified your target number instead of the result. A -1 to Hit on a BS of 3+ would mean that now 1,2, and 3 results are misses, and you would know before you roll that you are now looking for 4+. Simple.

On BS3, a 3 would be a miss without an allowed reroll
On BS3, a 2 would be a miss with an allowed reroll

 Trickstick wrote:
I did hear this explained to me in way that made it sound reasonable:

There are a lot of "reroll 1s" abilities in the game now. If you rerolled after modifiers, a 2 with a -1 would be a reroll. That actually makes an ability that gives a -1 into a buff instead of a debuff, as it is letting you reroll a 2 that you couldn't. Coming at it from that angle it starts to make sense, although I agree that it is still weird in some cases.

Only if the GW writers are too stupid to just write "reroll a natural roll of 1." and "Explodes on a natural roll of 1"

Holy gak! That just solved the issue! Using a concept already well introduced in the rules! Without the massively counter intuitive nonsense going in to modifiers and rerolls.

stratigo wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
I did hear this explained to me in way that made it sound reasonable:

There are a lot of "reroll 1s" abilities in the game now. If you rerolled after modifiers, a 2 with a -1 would be a reroll. That actually makes an ability that gives a -1 into a buff instead of a debuff, as it is letting you reroll a 2 that you couldn't. Coming at it from that angle it starts to make sense, although I agree that it is still weird in some cases.

Only if the GW writers are too stupid to just write "reroll a natural roll of 1." and "Explodes on a natural roll of 1"

Holy gak! That just solved the issue! Using a concept already well introduced in the rules! Without the massively counter intuitive nonsense going in to modifiers and rerolls.

Doesn't help the weirdness from full rerolls though. Though most of those issues are solved by making them voluntary.

ERJAK wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
I did hear this explained to me in way that made it sound reasonable:

There are a lot of "reroll 1s" abilities in the game now. If you rerolled after modifiers, a 2 with a -1 would be a reroll. That actually makes an ability that gives a -1 into a buff instead of a debuff, as it is letting you reroll a 2 that you couldn't. Coming at it from that angle it starts to make sense, although I agree that it is still weird in some cases.

Only if the GW writers are too stupid to just write "reroll a natural roll of 1." and "Explodes on a natural roll of 1"

Holy gak! That just solved the issue! Using a concept already well introduced in the rules! Without the massively counter intuitive nonsense going in to modifiers and rerolls.

Doesn't help the weirdness from full rerolls though. Though most of those issues are solved by making them voluntary.

they're already voluntary. But it does solve the issue by making full rerolls all misses and the partial rerolls and explosions of natural dice. Again, plasma guns exploding on 2 or even 3 and 4 at night or when shooting at flyers or stealthy units is really really fething stupid

I won't be playing it like this. And I hope they change it. Counter intuitive mechanics. And it doesn't make it easier or smoother or blah blah. No matter how much the frontline lapdogs try to champion it.

 Cheebs wrote:
I won't be playing it like this. And I hope they change it. Counter intuitive mechanics. And it doesn't make it easier or smoother or blah blah. No matter how much the frontline lapdogs try to champion it.

It's not, you're just not used to it. It's fine once you manage to get your head around it. It's just different from how it used to be. But feel free to play your own game or whatever and I guess the namecalling helps your case or whatever.

 Purifier wrote:

 Cheebs wrote:
I won't be playing it like this. And I hope they change it. Counter intuitive mechanics. And it doesn't make it easier or smoother or blah blah. No matter how much the frontline lapdogs try to champion it.

It's not, you're just not used to it. It's fine once you manage to get your head around it. It's just different from how it used to be. But feel free to play your own game or whatever and I guess the namecalling helps your case or whatever.

It is, flatly, not intuitive. When something says "reroll misses" or "Gets hot on a 1" it is intuitive to... reroll misses and remove a model on the roll of a one. THat you can 'get used' to having to math it out every time you shoot a plasma gun or have a chapter master near by doesn't actually make it more logical. People got used to the silly gak 7th pulled.

It's a bad rule that pointlessly nerfs plasma and nerfs buff bubbles (which is largely space marines that do that the best). So, well, people who like seeing those nerfed are all for it.

It really sucks for some schmuck who went all in on those fancy primeris marines. Have fun killing almost half your squad if you try and take out a flyer.

stratigo wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Cheebs wrote:
I won't be playing it like this. And I hope they change it. Counter intuitive mechanics. And it doesn't make it easier or smoother or blah blah. No matter how much the frontline lapdogs try to champion it.

It's not, you're just not used to it. It's fine once you manage to get your head around it. It's just different from how it used to be. But feel free to play your own game or whatever and I guess the namecalling helps your case or whatever.

It is, flatly, not intuitive. When something says "reroll misses" or "Gets hot on a 1" it is intuitive to... reroll misses and remove a model on the roll of a one. THat you can 'get used' to having to math it out every time you shoot a plasma gun or have a chapter master near by doesn't actually make it more logical. People got used to the silly gak 7th pulled.

It's a bad rule that pointlessly nerfs plasma and nerfs buff bubbles (which is largely space marines that do that the best). So, well, people who like seeing those nerfed are all for it.

It doesn't pointlessly do anything. It balances buff bubbles by giving some sort of counter play to it.
It doesn't even nerf plasma. If you get a +1 to hit, you're in a position where your plasma cannot overheat. So use your plasma accordingly. Don't super charge it when you've got a -4 to hit. Brings a shadow of tactical options to the game. Oh the horror.

It's far from counter intuitive. It's very intuitive. Roll. Reroll. Modify.
It doesn't add any steps, as the alternative is Roll. Modify. Reroll.

And doing "math" when it's "6-1" should really be in the realm of possibilty for anyone that manages to move around plastic men.