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 Silent_Tempest wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
For 2000pt, you can run 4 decent Knights and I think it would be pretty frightening for those not prepared. Though with everything able to hurt everything, it wouldn't be unstoppable like it might have been before.

That's a misconception. Sure a lasgun could wound a Knight. But wounding and killing are not the same thing. A knight has 24 wounds. Lasguns aren't going to be killing knights anytime soon. Lasguns and other similar common troop weapons are useless against knights because they have no save modifier, do only one wound, and in every case outside of Tau pulse rifles, need 6's to wound.

Just looking at the number of wounds and the knight's saves:

24 Wounds with a +3 save means you'll need to do about 72 wounds to a knight to kill it. 72.

So yeah in short unless we're playing for money (aka in a Tournament) I'm not playing your 4 knight army.

You are ignoring so many things to make your point.

Lasguns won't likely kill a Knight, no. But compared to before, when they had zero chance, that is a positive. They can hurt it. And it will never just be lasguns against a Knight, so that sort of example is disingenuous.

And a 3+ save isn't a 3+ save anymore. Just as often it will be their 5++, which is a big drop in effectiveness. Sure, a Lasgun has no AP and does 1 wound, but that isn't all the weapons an army has. Autocannons can hurt. Heavy Bolters can hurt. They aren't ideal, but they can. There is no strict "This can't hurt my Knight because AV" anymore.

And if you flat out refuse to play someone with 4 Knights, I find that a bit sad. A TAC list may have an uphill battle, but it isn't like you don't have tools - or should, at least. You can always win on mission, after all. Those Guard squads might not make a dent in a Knight, but you will likely take that objective by having a lot more models present than the single Knight.

The thing is, in exchange for occasionally suffering a scratch from a las gun, knights got tougher against everything else.

It used to be the case that melta guns would have a decent chance of causing an extra d3 hull points off a knight. A squad of 4 would have very good chances of getting penetrating hits, one of which would often "explode". Dropping a unit behind a knight meant making it choose where to point it's shield.

Now you just get a 5++ all round, so any melta hit only has a 1/3 chance of getting a wound through. A squad of dominions or a crisis commander will only get about a single hit through, for an average of 3.5 damage (4.5 if closer). That's barely a scratch.

Lascannons probably have a better chance of doing damage than they had before - at least if firing at its front arc through the shield. They too lose the ability to do extra damage though. The biggest problem for lascannons is the tendency of knights to go first and shoot the hell out of whatever is holding them.

Disposable plasma scions might be the best option - for knights as well as everything else. Knights can't really be bubblewrapped if they are advancing. They also can't shoot them dead before they arrive.

Mandragola wrote:
The thing is, in exchange for occasionally suffering a scratch from a las gun, knights got tougher against everything else.

It used to be the case that melta guns would have a decent chance of causing an extra d3 hull points off a knight. A squad of 4 would have very good chances of getting penetrating hits, one of which would often "explode". Dropping a unit behind a knight meant making it choose where to point it's shield.

Now you just get a 5++ all round, so any melta hit only has a 1/3 chance of getting a wound through. A squad of dominions or a crisis commander will only get about a single hit through, for an average of 3.5 damage (4.5 if closer). That's barely a scratch.

Lascannons probably have a better chance of doing damage than they had before - at least if firing at its front arc through the shield. They too lose the ability to do extra damage though. The biggest problem for lascannons is the tendency of knights to go first and shoot the hell out of whatever is holding them.

Disposable plasma scions might be the best option - for knights as well as everything else. Knights can't really be bubblewrapped if they are advancing. They also can't shoot them dead before they arrive.

I still don't see the issue. They are not impervious to a whole class of weaponry now. They are a VERY low model count army, so objective games will be a challenge. They diminish as they get hurt and while the shield is 360 now, it is only a 5++. Plus, all the more anti-tank oriented stuff does more than 1 point of damage, too.

They also went up around 100+ point each, depending. You can do 4 comfortably where 5 was doable before. I think they are perfectly suitable and most all-comers armies should be able to not get rolled by them.

LasCannons arent going to hurt you as much as Plasma Scions, (Guard cant spam 3+ LasCannons, only 4+ HWT's and with rerolls they only get a 58% chance to hit per) Plasma scions are dropping 3.56 wds per 64 points on a knight, and I only need to do 12 wds to reduce a knights effectiveness tremendously.

That being said, i think Knights are a tough matchup to anything that cant spam Mortal wds. Good to great shooting, good to great resiliency....

tough nut to crack

 RegulusBlack wrote:
Good to great shooting, good to great resiliency....

tough nut to crack

.

As I would hope a 500+ point model would be.

And given the weakness to some things, such as the Scions, you won't see full-Knight armies that often. Bubble-wrap is essential. So anyone who does go out with four Knights is actually giving themselves a bit of a disadvantage.

yeah my tactic would be (as a guard conscript player) to play the mission (Knights by themselves are woefully ill prepared to contest an objective) even with happy feet your only removing 7 (8 after Commisar plugs Guardsman Bob) models that's...ok, now coupled with their shooting should make a bigger dent but you get the idea

Scions deepstriking or in taurox are a good filler. Can have 3 taurox primes with dakka loadout, a tempestor prime as hq and 4 squads in 650 or so. I got a three knight list with guillimon and 3 Scion command squads with tempestor in a 2k list. So it's easily doable without guil.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Silent_Tempest wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
For 2000pt, you can run 4 decent Knights and I think it would be pretty frightening for those not prepared. Though with everything able to hurt everything, it wouldn't be unstoppable like it might have been before.

That's a misconception. Sure a lasgun could wound a Knight. But wounding and killing are not the same thing. A knight has 24 wounds. Lasguns aren't going to be killing knights anytime soon. Lasguns and other similar common troop weapons are useless against knights because they have no save modifier, do only one wound, and in every case outside of Tau pulse rifles, need 6's to wound.

Just looking at the number of wounds and the knight's saves:

24 Wounds with a +3 save means you'll need to do about 72 wounds to a knight to kill it. 72.

So yeah in short unless we're playing for money (aka in a Tournament) I'm not playing your 4 knight army.

You are ignoring so many things to make your point.

Lasguns won't likely kill a Knight, no. But compared to before, when they had zero chance, that is a positive. They can hurt it. And it will never just be lasguns against a Knight, so that sort of example is disingenuous.

And a 3+ save isn't a 3+ save anymore. Just as often it will be their 5++, which is a big drop in effectiveness. Sure, a Lasgun has no AP and does 1 wound, but that isn't all the weapons an army has. Autocannons can hurt. Heavy Bolters can hurt. They aren't ideal, but they can. There is no strict "This can't hurt my Knight because AV" anymore.

And if you flat out refuse to play someone with 4 Knights, I find that a bit sad. A TAC list may have an uphill battle, but it isn't like you don't have tools - or should, at least. You can always win on mission, after all. Those Guard squads might not make a dent in a Knight, but you will likely take that objective by having a lot more models present than the single Knight.

Are you saying that you wouldn't kill your opponents units that are effective at killing knights? There's no way a lascannon dev is going to be around to shot at a knight unless I have an entire army of lascannon dev squads which isn't going to happen in a take all comers list. Other heavy weapons can do some wounds a knight sure. They're not going to do 24 wounds. 4 knights have 96 wounds at T8 with a 3+ as well as a 5++ from shooting. They get to go first 70% of the time. (The other 30% of the time you get seized on.)

It's hard for a single knight model to take an objective that's been bubble wrapped by multiple infantry squads sure. It's not hard for a knight to take an objective in the middle of the table. Their bases are so large they can just stand between the objective and any enemy models and prevent them from getting close enough.

An all knight army is going to be dam effective against most other armies in the game. You'll have some bad match-ups. I don't think 8th edition has done anything to reduce 40K's rock/paper/scissor problem.

 Silent_Tempest wrote:


Are you saying that you wouldn't kill your opponents units that are effective at killing knights? There's no way a lascannon dev is going to be around to shot at a knight unless I have an entire army of lascannon dev squads which isn't going to happen in a take all comers list. Other heavy weapons can do some wounds a knight sure. They're not going to do 24 wounds. 4 knights have 96 wounds at T8 with a 3+ as well as a 5++ from shooting. They get to go first 70% of the time. (The other 30% of the time you get seized on.)

It's hard for a single knight model to take an objective that's been bubble wrapped by multiple infantry squads sure. It's not hard for a knight to take an objective in the middle of the table. Their bases are so large they can just stand between the objective and any enemy models and prevent them from getting close enough.

An all knight army is going to be dam effective against most other armies in the game. You'll have some bad match-ups. I don't think 8th edition has done anything to reduce 40K's rock/paper/scissor problem.

At some point, it basically comes down to actually rolling dice. Theoryhammer only goes so far. Knights are not unkillable. Mortal wounds are a thing and high AP weapons and high damage weapons are a thing. And as a Knight player I have to prioritize those, but if I can't stop them fast enough? Or they get around my strategy/tactics? Again, theoryhammer isn't the end-all.

And as for a bubble-wrapped Knight, well there you go. That means they aren't running a full Knight army. One less at least and opens up other TAC to doing more, as they will not be relegated to shooting just Knights hoping for pure luck to work.

And I don't think an all Knight army is going to do much. Objectives will kill them. They are one model. A squad of just two models takes an objective away from a Knight. Plus, hordes are an issue and those got a major boost in 8th.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
And given the weakness to some things, such as the Scions, you won't see full-Knight armies that often. Bubble-wrap is essential. So anyone who does go out with four Knights is actually giving themselves a bit of a disadvantage.

This is why I'm looking at this for 3 knights
My goal is to use the 21 nurglings to act as screening, objective takers, and harassment for my knights. If there are no deep strikers to worry about, they can be used to harras units like Havocs. As each unit has 28 wounds, a 5++, plus DR, they are surprisingly annoying to get rid of. With a herald nearby, they also have 28 STR 3 attacks -- which makes a bigger bite than most people expect.

I played against an army of 4 renegade knights and some cultists and a sorcerer. Fusion blasters work wonders against them, as did Longstrike. They took surprisingly many wounds from pulse rifles too.

I didn't kill anything before my turn 3. I just put them to low wound count and they weren't a threat anymore, hitting on 5+ and moving 6". They do have some great firepower though, and they are really great in melee.

I feel like 4 knights in a list was way too many. I would've been in trouble if he had infantry rushing my lines with the knights.

My list was roughly:

Longstrike
Fireblade
Commander w/ 4x Fusion
Crisis suits with plasma, 6 gun drones
Hammerhead
Railrifle Broadside
30 FW
5 PF
3 Stealth suits
2 Ghostkeels

 Fueli wrote:
I would've been in trouble if he had infantry rushing my lines with the knights.

Or 84 wounds worth of nurglings that started 9" from your deployment zone..

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Fueli wrote:
I would've been in trouble if he had infantry rushing my lines with the knights.

Or 84 wounds worth of nurglings that started 9" from your deployment zone..

As a tau player? Not really. Tau have their own screening units, plus a gun or two.

I think 3 knights with some objective grabbers/holders probably make more sense than 4. The worst thing for knights is having to camp your own backfield.

Mandragola wrote:
The thing is, in exchange for occasionally suffering a scratch from a las gun, knights got tougher against everything else.

It used to be the case that melta guns would have a decent chance of causing an extra d3 hull points off a knight. A squad of 4 would have very good chances of getting penetrating hits, one of which would often "explode". Dropping a unit behind a knight meant making it choose where to point it's shield.

Now you just get a 5++ all round, so any melta hit only has a 1/3 chance of getting a wound through. A squad of dominions or a crisis commander will only get about a single hit through, for an average of 3.5 damage (4.5 if closer). That's barely a scratch.

Lascannons probably have a better chance of doing damage than they had before - at least if firing at its front arc through the shield. They too lose the ability to do extra damage though. The biggest problem for lascannons is the tendency of knights to go first and shoot the hell out of whatever is holding them.

Disposable plasma scions might be the best option - for knights as well as everything else. Knights can't really be bubblewrapped if they are advancing. They also can't shoot them dead before they arrive.

Maybe consider a Vortex Missile Battery? Every shot is D6 Shots, and any hit is D6 mortal wounds, just have someone with BS 2+ in there and you have a Knight killer.

and remember bubblewarp the Bastion with Conscripts

To my knowledge, models in fortifications don't confer their BS.

So with the FW knights for imperium out will anyone be us no any of them in conjunction with the GW one? I personally like the styrix and castigator.

PUFNSTUF wrote:
So with the FW knights for imperium out will anyone be us no any of them in conjunction with the GW one? I personally like the styrix and castigator.

Castigator seems like a Warden +1 so will get used, Lancer is a Gallant +1, so is still on the bench...

Acheron is interesting and I'll give it a shot for sure, and the Atrapos seems like the ultimate armor-killer. The Magaera is still sad face for another edition, and the Styrix does seem a little more interesting, but not sure it's better than a similarly priced Paladin... If you can find a way to get the Styrix +1 to hit, then you may be in business.

Vulkite seems better than the RFBC to me. Less random.

So, after a few games with a 3 knight army, they aren't as terrifying as you'd fear. They DO put out a scary amount of firepower, but they are actually rather vulnerable to return fire and being charged by big smacking melee units.

Bobby G did something like 30 wounds over all to 3 knights in a 2500 point game.

On the knight's side, they generaly want to stay the feth away because they don't get an invul in melee, and their shooting is usually better than their melee.

 minionboy wrote:

PUFNSTUF wrote:
So with the FW knights for imperium out will anyone be us no any of them in conjunction with the GW one? I personally like the styrix and castigator.

Castigator seems like a Warden +1 so will get used, Lancer is a Gallant +1, so is still on the bench...

The 4++ in melee on the Lancer makes a really big difference, I think. It's reasonably priced, too. Of course, if I wanted to tear up other super-heavies in melee then the Atropos knocks it into a cocked hat, which gives me a sad.

What's people's opinions on the Knight Styrix are they any good?

Mandragola wrote:


A sisters of battle fast attach detachment, maybe with Celestine as your warlord, could be good. Seraphim are great for maelstrom and you get some efficient units to hold your own deployment zone objectives too.

Always kinda fancied a sisters force with knights archeron, castigator and errant for the Holy trinity of bolter, flamer and melt a just wasn't sure what to field for the sisters.

So would a Knight Paladin be at all a decent option for a Knight build? No melee upgrade beyond the Reaper Chainsword, of course.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So would a Knight Paladin be at all a decent option for a Knight build? No melee upgrade beyond the Reaper Chainsword, of course.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the Paladin. It's not as good an all-rounder as the Warden, and it's not as good a heavy armour specialist as the Errant. The gun has a six foot range, but the chainsword wants to be up close.

Having said that, it's really a matter of fractions . None of the Knights are bad (except maybe the Gallant in this edition), and it is good vs. T7 vehicles like rhinos etc. so if you end up fighting a lot of those if could be a good choice.

I like the Warden and Errant better as well. I really like the Errant in 8th.

The Paladin is good if you want a long range, melee hybrid. That's really it I think. So if you want to shoot the backfield while guarding your own backfield from deep strike assault.

How would you load out the Castigator?

Gibs55 wrote:
How would you load out the Castigator?

There are precisely 0 options for a Castigator, so run it stock, lol.

 minionboy wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
How would you load out the Castigator?

There are precisely 0 options for a Castigator, so run it stock, lol.

Well, technically you have the option to choose the <household>.

(-:

So I've got a Imperial Knights box set I'm ready to dust off and start building (for chaos). I'll probably magnetize them, but what is a decent load out for traitor knights? Sword/Fist and Avenger, Sword/Fist Thermal Cannon? Sword/Fist RFBC?