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I want to know what the hell FW were smoking when they came up with Sekhmet terminators. 20/5 points cheaper than firedrakes, yet still 2 wounds and with a 3+ save. All they lose is WS 5 and a point of leadership on the troopers (not the inceptor). Throw in that they're a lvl 2 psyker AND they're stubborn.

What a joke.

Sekmets are slightly on the OP side, yes.
Still not as bad as quads though.

Now MAGNUS is the realy TS cheese. his rules are just poorly thought out.

 Looky Likey wrote:
So I'm doing a HH event at Warhammer World in a few months. If it follows the format of previous events I have done at Warhammer World the ranking will be primarily based on how my favorite game of the tournament ratings you get from your opponent with VPs being used as the secondary ranking.

With that in mind I do not plan on taking my Knights as everybody always moans about playing Knights (unless they play mechanicum) so I will be taking my Ultramarines. I want to avoid taking any units that are *considered* broken rather than units that are actually broken.

My list to avoid already has Typhons and Quad Launchers, what else should I be avoiding?

Don't know anything about tournaments but at my club the things to avoid are:

- Primarchs
- Lords of War (Glaive in particular)
- Spartans with flare shield
- Quad Launchers, especially with Phosphex
- Primus Medicae
- Apothecaries
- Artifacer Serg with power fist
- Kheres dreadnoughts
- Chaplains
- Master of Signals
- Librarian
- Any unit that doesn't fit the Legions theme

Pretty much its anything that puts out too much firepower, deathstar units or buff units. These seem to be the things people take exception to. People also think Thousand Sons, IF, SoH are broken but theres no way of dealing with that without banning the army outright.

Dude, what can you take? I get the units not fitting the theme and quad launchers, but no apothecaries? No super heavies? No chaplains, Primus medicaes or librarians? NO PRIMARCHS?! This is 30k!! Go big or go home!!

I am also very glad I don't game in your area, I don't have a single HQ unit that would be allowed excluding Alvarex Maun and Ahriman... and no artificer/fist sarg is like saying you can't have water with any meal... why? They aren't even that good.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Looky Likey wrote:
So I'm doing a HH event at Warhammer World in a few months. If it follows the format of previous events I have done at Warhammer World the ranking will be primarily based on how my favorite game of the tournament ratings you get from your opponent with VPs being used as the secondary ranking.

With that in mind I do not plan on taking my Knights as everybody always moans about playing Knights (unless they play mechanicum) so I will be taking my Ultramarines. I want to avoid taking any units that are *considered* broken rather than units that are actually broken.

My list to avoid already has Typhons and Quad Launchers, what else should I be avoiding?

Don't know anything about tournaments but at my club the things to avoid are:

- Primarchs
- Lords of War (Glaive in particular)
- Spartans with flare shield
- Quad Launchers, especially with Phosphex
- Primus Medicae
- Apothecaries
- Artifacer Serg with power fist
- Kheres dreadnoughts
- Chaplains
- Master of Signals
- Librarian
- Any unit that doesn't fit the Legions theme

Pretty much its anything that puts out too much firepower, deathstar units or buff units. These seem to be the things people take exception to. People also think Thousand Sons, IF, SoH are broken but theres no way of dealing with that without banning the army outright.

Wow.. I get the Phosphex quad launchers. But, what do you take? I mean Apothecaries, really!?

That list seems bit intensive. I think once you hit 3k with HH lords of war are almost expected and really fit the fluff of HH.

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
I would say the only units I hear come up on a regular basis are

Phosphex rapiers & Sekhmet terminators.

I have played against rapiers, and basically the easiest way to get rid of them is to infiltrate right up to them (if you happen to have Raven Guard) and/or deep strike a CC unit right up next to it. The guys tending the guns only have bolt pistols, so they'll die quite easily to veterans with a power sword or two, claws termies, pretty much all the legion-specific CC units or even bolt pistol/chainsword tacs.

And as a TSons player, I will most definitely NOT tell you how to defeat my sekhmet.

I can help out with this as I have killed many of 2 wound terminators. Strength 8+ and lots of it.

Also, deep striking/outflanking sniper vets destroy rapier batteries.

Don't know anything about tournaments but at my club the things to avoid are:

- Primarchs
- Lords of War (Glaive in particular)
- Spartans with flare shield
- Quad Launchers, especially with Phosphex
- Primus Medicae
- Apothecaries
- Artifacer Serg with power fist
- Kheres dreadnoughts
- Chaplains
- Master of Signals
- Librarian
- Any unit that doesn't fit the Legions theme

Pretty much its anything that puts out too much firepower, deathstar units or buff units. These seem to be the things people take exception to. People also think Thousand Sons, IF, SoH are broken but theres no way of dealing with that without banning the army outright.

Personally I think that's a bit too extensive of a list, but my biggest gripe is the last one.

What constitutes something that "fits" a legion? Sure the legions embody general themes but they are still self-contained combat forces relative to each other. I can guarantee 100% that there is at least 1 (there are probably more but sadly we are not told what each company specializes in) dedicated super-heavy tank company in the Night Lords and a company in the Iron Warriors and death guard that uses jet bikes and landspeeders as the majority of its force for recon and harassment. That equipment has to be at some level of organization within each legion, as there is every incentive to have those options within a legion because there are situations where each equipment can be used to maximum potential and different legion support may be several months away. They may be black sheep of the family, i.e. you'll never see the primarch chilling and strolling with these guys in battle, but I personally think they exist- other wise I think forge world would have put heavier restrictions on what each legion could take if they felt that a choice was such a gross violation of fluff that it shouldn't be allowed. Also I just think it is wrong to deny someone a game just because they made a legal choice (assuming their list does not violate any of your other restrictions) for a legion your group doesn't think "fits" the theme. What do we live in, the 41st millennium? I just think the legions are far more complex and varied within the legions than what people give them credit for.

Especially considering that if you took the unit with your legion, taht unit probably works well with that legion's fighting style.

I mean, you don't take units that don't fit your legion simply because they are ineffective in your legion.

Like how anyone not TS will be very very dubious of including rotor support squads-but TS will be happy to cram a few in their lines.

R0bcrt wrote:

Don't know anything about tournaments but at my club the things to avoid are:

- Primarchs
- Lords of War (Glaive in particular)
- Spartans with flare shield
- Quad Launchers, especially with Phosphex
- Primus Medicae
- Apothecaries
- Artifacer Serg with power fist
- Kheres dreadnoughts
- Chaplains
- Master of Signals
- Librarian
- Any unit that doesn't fit the Legions theme

Pretty much its anything that puts out too much firepower, deathstar units or buff units. These seem to be the things people take exception to. People also think Thousand Sons, IF, SoH are broken but theres no way of dealing with that without banning the army outright.

Personally I think that's a bit too extensive of a list, but my biggest gripe is the last one.

What constitutes something that "fits" a legion? Sure the legions embody general themes but they are still self-contained combat forces relative to each other. I can guarantee 100% that there is at least 1 (there are probably more but sadly we are not told what each company specializes in) dedicated super-heavy tank company in the Night Lords and a company in the Iron Warriors and death guard that uses jet bikes and landspeeders as the majority of its force for recon and harassment. That equipment has to be at some level of organization within each legion, as there is every incentive to have those options within a legion because there are situations where each equipment can be used to maximum potential and different legion support may be several months away. They may be black sheep of the family, i.e. you'll never see the primarch chilling and strolling with these guys in battle, but I personally think they exist- other wise I think forge world would have put heavier restrictions on what each legion could take if they felt that a choice was such a gross violation of fluff that it shouldn't be allowed. Also I just think it is wrong to deny someone a game just because they made a legal choice (assuming their list does not violate any of your other restrictions) for a legion your group doesn't think "fits" the theme. What do we live in, the 41st millennium? I just think the legions are far more complex and varied within the legions than what people give them credit for.

Well said.

I tried to keep to the fluff when I built my horus heresy armies, mostly because its much more enjoyable to play the army like it was "supposed" to play. My Thousand Sons force, for example, is absolutely full of psykers (I've had an army-wide mastery level of 17 at most), and my raven guard concentrates on trying to defeat the enemy in the first few turns. But like you said, I would be fine playing against a death guard army made up of landspeeders and jet bikes IF my opponent had a decent explanation for them, and didn't just bring them to have a better list. The whole Horus Heresy environment is, for me, more of a "historical" game where we try to re-create the narrative of the fluff and BL books than a competitive game.

Quick update on this as I did the event last weekend, it was doubles with each player having a 1k list. Everybody we spoke to hated the games against the quad launchers, one guy bought 9 of them. Another pair of players took Magnus and Horus in a combined 2k list, somebody else Magnus and Alpharius, you can guess how many people liked playing against two (unexpected) Primarchs in a (relatively) low point game. We also played a 1kSons list that relied on invisibility, it wasn't our hardest game but invisbility made the game far harder than it should be, so glad that invisbility is going soon for 30k.

Our toughest game was actually against the fluffiest list, two big blobs of RG troops, two blobs of IF breachers, big blobs of Volkite and Missile Launchers, Polux, the rest of the list didn't do much. We were completely battered by this list as the players were just much better than us.

In the end we had three favourite game and two best army ratings out of five, which I was really pleased with.

At last year's "friendly" HH tournament at AdeptiCon, there was a player with 9x quad launchers with phosphex. In his defense: "I could have brought 12! Why are people complaining?!"

Indeed.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
I want to know what the hell FW were smoking when they came up with Sekhmet terminators. 20/5 points cheaper than firedrakes, yet still 2 wounds and with a 3+ save. All they lose is WS 5 and a point of leadership on the troopers (not the inceptor). Throw in that they're a lvl 2 psyker AND they're stubborn.

What a joke.

I wanna Know what they were smoking when they designed Custodes

 Looky Likey wrote:
Quick update on this as I did the event last weekend, it was doubles with each player having a 1k list. Everybody we spoke to hated the games against the quad launchers, one guy bought 9 of them. Another pair of players took Magnus and Horus in a combined 2k list, somebody else Magnus and Alpharius, you can guess how many people liked playing against two (unexpected) Primarchs in a (relatively) low point game. We also played a 1kSons list that relied on invisibility, it wasn't our hardest game but invisbility made the game far harder than it should be, so glad that invisbility is going soon for 30k.

Our toughest game was actually against the fluffiest list, two big blobs of RG troops, two blobs of IF breachers, big blobs of Volkite and Missile Launchers, Polux, the rest of the list didn't do much. We were completely battered by this list as the players were just much better than us.

In the end we had three favourite game and two best army ratings out of five, which I was really pleased with.

Sounds like your TO's failed in not restricting Primarchs Chosen. That's almost an assured not-allowed in low point tourneys.

 smurfORnot wrote:

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
I want to know what the hell FW were smoking when they came up with Sekhmet terminators. 20/5 points cheaper than firedrakes, yet still 2 wounds and with a 3+ save. All they lose is WS 5 and a point of leadership on the troopers (not the inceptor). Throw in that they're a lvl 2 psyker AND they're stubborn.

What a joke.

I wanna Know what they were smoking when they designed Custodes

Book VII Inferno is the worst book in the HH series. It's obvious that FW rushed it, didn't think about anything in it, and didn't even bother to proof read it before dumping it on us right before 8th Edition came out.

As a Thousand Sons player, I can say that they do require a bit of restraint to play and not be "that guy" but really it just extends to the following.

-No invisible Magnus. WE DON'T DO THAT IN THE HOUSE!
-My rule of thumb is no Magnus unless my opponent is ok with it because Magnus is hands down one of the best, if not the best Primarch.

That is pretty much it. Yeah some things in 30k may require amounts of self restraint.

I personaly hate spartans with flare shields, but I would never refuse to play against one. Sekhmet aren't OP if you take them with tartaros armour and it gives some huge benefits. Everybody complains about TS, IF and SoH, but at the same time nobody seems to notice IW,IH and BA. IW Havocs are as close to broken as it can get, the entire legion ignores morale in the shooting phase. IH are absurdly resistant to fire power with -1 Str on shooting+ apothecaries and can get lots of tanks. Yea, they suck in CC, but you have to get there first. And BA with +1 I, +1 to wound are outright sacry - and that without special units or characters. Oh, and don't forget UM units like Fulmentarus, Locutarus and Invictarus, who are cheaper and/or better then their analogues in other legions.

 hordrak wrote:
I personaly hate spartans with flare shields, but I would never refuse to play against one. Sekhmet aren't OP if you take them with tartaros armour and it gives some huge benefits. Everybody complains about TS, IF and SoH, but at the same time nobody seems to notice IW,IH and BA. IW Havocs are as close to broken as it can get, the entire legion ignores morale in the shooting phase. IH are absurdly resistant to fire power with -1 Str on shooting+ apothecaries and can get lots of tanks. Yea, they suck in CC, but you have to get there first. And BA with +1 I, +1 to wound are outright sacry - and that without special units or characters. Oh, and don't forget UM units like Fulmentarus, Locutarus and Invictarus, who are cheaper and/or better then their analogues in other legions.

Wait, people complain about SoH/Luna Wolves?!

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:

 hordrak wrote:
I personaly hate spartans with flare shields, but I would never refuse to play against one. Sekhmet aren't OP if you take them with tartaros armour and it gives some huge benefits. Everybody complains about TS, IF and SoH, but at the same time nobody seems to notice IW,IH and BA. IW Havocs are as close to broken as it can get, the entire legion ignores morale in the shooting phase. IH are absurdly resistant to fire power with -1 Str on shooting+ apothecaries and can get lots of tanks. Yea, they suck in CC, but you have to get there first. And BA with +1 I, +1 to wound are outright sacry - and that without special units or characters. Oh, and don't forget UM units like Fulmentarus, Locutarus and Invictarus, who are cheaper and/or better then their analogues in other legions.

Wait, people complain about SoH/Luna Wolves?!

Yeah I'm surprised at that. I thought they were considered bit of mediocre? Reserve rules is situational at best especially if you don't use orbital drop ROW. Justicaerin are nice but many legion has good elite termies. Extra attacks are nice but you need to outnumber enemy and doesn't work with power fists and while shooting bonus is nice short range and doesn't combo with fury of legion. FA unit is lackluster at best.

Not saying it's crap legion but I don't see what's to complain there. The bonuses they get seem to be more situational than say Iron hands where you are almost always benefitting and can make your army virtually invulnerable to S4 bases shooting.

Not sure about BA either. Is 30k that much more h2h based game than 7th ed 40k was? 40k was so much shooting that army wide rule that helps h2h would need to be ridiculously good to be worth anything.

I seem to always graviate toward the non-powerhouse armies Why they have to attract me on looks or style

tneva82 wrote:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:

 hordrak wrote:
I personaly hate spartans with flare shields, but I would never refuse to play against one. Sekhmet aren't OP if you take them with tartaros armour and it gives some huge benefits. Everybody complains about TS, IF and SoH, but at the same time nobody seems to notice IW,IH and BA. IW Havocs are as close to broken as it can get, the entire legion ignores morale in the shooting phase. IH are absurdly resistant to fire power with -1 Str on shooting+ apothecaries and can get lots of tanks. Yea, they suck in CC, but you have to get there first. And BA with +1 I, +1 to wound are outright sacry - and that without special units or characters. Oh, and don't forget UM units like Fulmentarus, Locutarus and Invictarus, who are cheaper and/or better then their analogues in other legions.

Wait, people complain about SoH/Luna Wolves?!

Yeah I'm surprised at that. I thought they were considered bit of mediocre? Reserve rules is situational at best especially if you don't use orbital drop ROW. Justicaerin are nice but many legion has good elite termies. Extra attacks are nice but you need to outnumber enemy and doesn't work with power fists and while shooting bonus is nice short range and doesn't combo with fury of legion. FA unit is lackluster at best.

Not saying it's crap legion but I don't see what's to complain there. The bonuses they get seem to be more situational than say Iron hands where you are almost always benefitting and can make your army virtually invulnerable to S4 bases shooting.

Not sure about BA either. Is 30k that much more h2h based game than 7th ed 40k was? 40k was so much shooting that army wide rule that helps h2h would need to be ridiculously good to be worth anything.

I seem to always graviate toward the non-powerhouse armies Why they have to attract me on looks or style

Oh I win plenty of gmes with my Luna Wolves, but not because they are OP by any means lol.

Not saying they are worthless piece of underpowered crap but just that they don't seem to be held as the top-tier legions. But since much of the most powerfull stuff is shared by legions and differences aren't that big you can win with all legions. But SoH have it bit harder than say Iron Hands or Iron Warriors.

One reason being that while SoH legion bonuses are useful they are rather situational while others have very few situations you DON'T benefit. -1S for enemy attacks is pretty damn universal. Bonus for reinforcements does not come up every game unless you specifically design for it and biggest way to do that is drop pod assault ROW.

 kronk wrote:
At last year's "friendly" HH tournament at AdeptiCon, there was a player with 9x quad launchers with phosphex. In his defense: "I could have brought 12! Why are people complaining?!"

Indeed.

THis is the worst


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
As a Thousand Sons player, I can say that they do require a bit of restraint to play and not be "that guy" but really it just extends to the following.

-No invisible Magnus. WE DON'T DO THAT IN THE HOUSE!
-My rule of thumb is no Magnus unless my opponent is ok with it because Magnus is hands down one of the best, if not the best Primarch.

That is pretty much it. Yeah some things in 30k may require amounts of self restraint.

Magnus powering up a nova power that has an 18" range +2d6 STR = Big D in the mouth is worse.

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
Magnus powering up a nova power that has an 18" range +2d6 STR = Big D in the mouth is worse.

Whose legality is in serious doubt.

Stuff to avoid using imo:

Primarch, typhon, glaive, quads, knights.

Suzerains are strong, but nothing over the top.
Typically see them loaded into a Spartan with a kitted out praetor.

Your special termies (keep forgetting the names) are nothing special.
While they can be kitted out as a heavy support unit, you pay a large price for them.
Iron warriors can run cyclones for cheaper with better benefits.


My old legion was salamanders, so a few things to be careful of.
Firedrakes can be a nightmare to kill and will cause havoc if not dealt with quickly.

Other than that, they don't really have anything special.
The named dread can be a pain to kill, but it's short ranged and slow, so ignore it if there are other targets.




I would however be inclined to run a plasma support squad.
While it's strong it's not broken.
It will help out miles and remove alot of threats.


If you face EC be prepared for reserve shenanigans.
Phoenix terminators have gotten better over time and the palatine blades with jumps can cause issues if not dealt with.



Hopefully it is friendly though.
Last thing you want to face is 10+ iron warriors siege terminators.
They are cheap enough for what they are and damage output is solid.
If you do fight them, try and get the suzerains into them as quick as you can.
They will cut them down fairly well.



However, do not attempt the same against firedrakes.
Just avoid them like the plague.
Shoot down their ride and keep away from them.
You won't have anything that will match them in combat and they will cut through whatever you throw their way.

As someone that used to run them often, they are highly complained about (more so with vulkan in a Spartan lol)

Really can't state enough just how solid they are in combat.

tneva82 wrote:

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
Magnus powering up a nova power that has an 18" range +2d6 STR = Big D in the mouth is worse.

Whose legality is in serious doubt.

Out of curiosity, why is the legality in doubt?

Outside of Vehicles, Magnus's Nova D isn't even that terrifying, since it tends to be AP: 4 at best. RAW D does NOT always ignore saves unless you roll a 6. This means, on average, you kill 1 marine in a squad without them getting a save. Sure, it's overkill against vehicles, but against basically any other target it's not that bad.

And how is the legality in doubt? Novas are a sub-class of witchfires.


My most hated legion "unit" is probably vet tacticals. Not because they are strong, but for a long while we ONLY saw "PotL, 2 vet squads in rhinos, then only the big stuff" I.e. the most boring list to face IMO.

tneva82 wrote:

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
Magnus powering up a nova power that has an 18" range +2d6 STR = Big D in the mouth is worse.

Whose legality is in serious doubt.

Not really, novas are witchfires so RAW it is legal.

A dick move for sure but a legal one at the moment

 Brennonjw wrote:
Outside of Vehicles, Magnus's Nova D isn't even that terrifying, since it tends to be AP: 4 at best. RAW D does NOT always ignore saves unless you roll a 6. This means, on average, you kill 1 marine in a squad without them getting a save. Sure, it's overkill against vehicles, but against basically any other target it's not that bad.

And how is the legality in doubt? Novas are a sub-class of witchfires.


My most hated legion "unit" is probably vet tacticals. Not because they are strong, but for a long while we ONLY saw "PotL, 2 vet squads in rhinos, then only the big stuff" I.e. the most boring list to face IMO.

I have seen that arqument fly back and forth with no conclusion here too often to see it as clear case. If it was there wasn't arqument over that again and again.

Who needs thouse D Novas? Magnus rolling up on Biomancy - that is a scary thing.
As for people complaining about SoH - the main reason is the death dealers rule. Get close, shoot the enemy with plasma squads, sniper vet and stuff like that. That is what people are afraid of. But I prefer to fear IH - the minus to S on incoming shots is just so good.

Phosphex Quads are only range 36 so it's hardly like they can be hidden out of sight the entire came. If they're way in the back field waiting for you to advance, then you should have time to bring on outflank/deepstrike reserves to get rid of them. at 260pts for a full unit, plus at least another 100 for a siege breaker, theyre pretty fairly costed.

I agree that bringing 9 is both broken and unfair, but anyone should be able to reasonably handle 3.

The names I hear most commonly are -

Phosphex quad launchers.

Magnus, that normally gets mentioned along side Guard of the Crimson king for Sekhmet with 3+ invuns re-rolling 1's the turn they deep strike.

I don't really hear many more gripes, some things are at the top end of the scale (Falchion/Typhon springs to mind) but the above 2 are the main culprits in my experience.