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The real question is, can the tau make genetically enhanced tau? Primaris tau

 Warpig1815 wrote:

Ynneadwraith wrote:I wonder if, again given the wibbly wobbly nature of the warp and causality, it's not quite as straight forwards as that. Perhaps it's a case of 'Grandfather's Axe'.

Your grandfather had an axe. Through the years, its handle has snapped so it was replaced. Its blade has dulled so that was replaced too, perhaps with a more modern design. The handle snapped again, so again it was replaced. Hickory this time, since trade with the States has picked up since your Grandfather's days. However, it is still your Grandfather's Axe. So what if a few bits have been changed here or there, it was still handed down to your father and now to you. You could go out and buy an axe that's design is completely identical to the axe your Grandfather held in his hand so long ago, but it wouldn't actually be your Grandfather's Axe. The one you hold in your hand, physically completely unrecognisable. That is your Grandfather's Axe.

This is something that all human cultures understand, yet makes very little objective sense. Perhaps this is how soul transference works. It certainly has that odd quasi-mystical feel to it of warp interactions, that don't quite follow the rules of the physical universe.

Theseus's Ship Paradox - It's an issue that has been discussed for, quite literally, thousands of years - about 1900 years give or take a decade, and probably for a lot longer than that. The real brain bender comes in the 1500's when Thomas Hobbes asks whether, if you gathered up all the old, replaced planks of Theseus's ship (Or the old dulled blade and cracked handle of the axe) and built another ship/axe - would it be a new ship/axe or the original.

Therefore, when the soul and body are reincarnated and reunited - are they the original, or simply a facsimile that believes it is the original. Is the resurrection real, or simply imagined...

The answer to the ship of theseus is that our concept of identity is flawed and not accurately reflecting a real world phenomenon. You are 99.9% by mass not the person your parents gave a name to, but your intuition and legal paperwork say you are. This is because identity isn't what you're made of, instead identity arises from continuity (an unbroken chain of events), and you are who you were because of your sense of continuity with your younger self, and others perception of the same. So if an elder soul hops in a baby's body but retains his memories of his past life it is indeed the same eldar that died. If he has no memories of his past life, even if it's the same bit of soul stuff and a cloned body he is something new being made from recycled parts.

What about Tau ethereals? I thought their mind-control ability over other Tau was possibly due to latent psionics, and there is their "Invocation of the Elements", which could be similar to orkish zeitgeist.

If ethereals are latent psykers, they could possibly be bred (or eventually manifest) as actual psychics down the road.

 Stormonu wrote:
What about Tau ethereals? I thought their mind-control ability over other Tau was possibly due to latent psionics, and there is their "Invocation of the Elements", which could be similar to orkish zeitgeist.

If ethereals are latent psykers, they could possibly be bred (or eventually manifest) as actual psychics down the road.

I don't think the Ethereals use psionics to control the T'au. It was hinted it was pheromones, not anything psychic, and I even that hasn't been mentioned much in fluff and other sources hint against it, if I remember correctly, like an Ethereal being captured and found with no pheromone gland, although I can't for the life of me remember where that was. Deathwatch, perhaps? Personally, I'd think simply cultural indoctrination suits the purpose with that.

 Warpig1815 wrote:

Ynneadwraith wrote:I wonder if, again given the wibbly wobbly nature of the warp and causality, it's not quite as straight forwards as that. Perhaps it's a case of 'Grandfather's Axe'.

Your grandfather had an axe. Through the years, its handle has snapped so it was replaced. Its blade has dulled so that was replaced too, perhaps with a more modern design. The handle snapped again, so again it was replaced. Hickory this time, since trade with the States has picked up since your Grandfather's days. However, it is still your Grandfather's Axe. So what if a few bits have been changed here or there, it was still handed down to your father and now to you. You could go out and buy an axe that's design is completely identical to the axe your Grandfather held in his hand so long ago, but it wouldn't actually be your Grandfather's Axe. The one you hold in your hand, physically completely unrecognisable. That is your Grandfather's Axe.

This is something that all human cultures understand, yet makes very little objective sense. Perhaps this is how soul transference works. It certainly has that odd quasi-mystical feel to it of warp interactions, that don't quite follow the rules of the physical universe.

Theseus's Ship Paradox - It's an issue that has been discussed for, quite literally, thousands of years - about 1900 years give or take a decade, and probably for a lot longer than that. The real brain bender comes in the 1500's when Thomas Hobbes asks whether, if you gathered up all the old, replaced planks of Theseus's ship (Or the old dulled blade and cracked handle of the axe) and built another ship/axe - would it be a new ship/axe or the original.

Therefore, when the soul and body are reincarnated and reunited - are they the original, or simply a facsimile that believes it is the original. Is the resurrection real, or simply imagined...

Yeah that's the one

The extra paradox of 'what if you re-used the old parts' is doubly interesting. To take that further, what if you split the axe into haft and head, and then simultaneously replace the missing parts for each 50% section? You can't even argue that one of them takes precedent from continuity.

Still, I definitely think that this is more the way a soul would work. Doesn't it fit the concept of the Warp for the way it functions to be paradoxical?

 Grimgold wrote:

The answer to the ship of theseus is that our concept of identity is flawed and not accurately reflecting a real world phenomenon. You are 99.9% by mass not the person your parents gave a name to, but your intuition and legal paperwork say you are. This is because identity isn't what you're made of, instead identity arises from continuity (an unbroken chain of events), and you are who you were because of your sense of continuity with your younger self, and others perception of the same. So if an elder soul hops in a baby's body but retains his memories of his past life it is indeed the same eldar that died. If he has no memories of his past life, even if it's the same bit of soul stuff and a cloned body he is something new being made from recycled parts.

Haha! I love the idea that the only thing that truly grounds your identity is the paperwork you produce there's something quite Python-esque about that.

Here's a question, based on the above concept of continuity.

A Dark Eldar Archon gets shot in the head by some filthy mon'keigh vermin. His body has been dragged back to Commorragh where he is resurrected by a Haemonculus he has an arrangement with. However, he has also squirrelled away another body part with a second Haemonculus for emergencies (I mean, what self-respecting Archon doesn't have back-ups for his back-ups). Due to a mixed up messages, both plans were put into action and in the same instant two of the same Archon are resurrected.

What happens to their soul/identity?

1. Randomly, their soul picks a host and the other clone withers or is otherwise unviable
2. Randomly, their soul picks a host and another random swirling eddy of warp energy coalesces into the other clone, forming another soul.
3. Randomly, their soul picks a host and the other empty vessel is possessed by daemons
4. The soul is duplicated between the two and you have two Archons each with an identical soul
5. The soul is split between the two and you have two Archons with the same memories but sharing one soul
6. The soul is split between the two and you have two Archons sharing part of the same soul, each with partial memories and identities split at random
7. Any of the above, depending on which way the immaterial breeze is blowing at that particular instant

Personally, I'd go with 'Rule of Cool' and say that the twin Archons each with fragments of their former soul and personality, only reconciled once they have killed and consumed the other's soul-fragment. Lots of neat ideas there*.

Either way, I think the typical Dark Eldar solution to duplicates would be 'throw them in the arena, whoever wins claims the right to identity'. Fits their 'Might Makes Right' cultural foundation, and it'd be fun to watch

*Ooh! I've just had an idea for a Haemonculus. What if they clone themselves intentionally to split their souls into multiple fragments, and then proceed to use those fragments as intellectual-storage vessels. Sort of like a hive-mind, but more like a hive-soul.

Sort of a Voldemort Haemonculus?

 Stormonu wrote:
Sort of a Voldemort Haemonculus?

Well, technically all Haemonculi and most powerful Dark Eldar have a Voldemort-y setup. They chop bits of themselves off for safekeeping so a new body can be grown for them should they die.

I was thinking more like a hive-mind comprised entirely of one soul in hundreds of different bodies, each independent but fragments of the whole. It'd certainly be a thoroughly effective way of preventing you from being consumed by Slaanesh. They'd have to kill every single one of you, and even killing one powerful Dark Eldar is hard enough...

@Grimgold - I'd love to have a conversation with you on identity and the soul, and I even wrote out a long paragraph explaining what I thought, but ultimately I have to keep (relatively!) on-topic for the sake of other readers.

@Ynneadwraith - My bet is that the bodies are identical, with the soul split across two. Souls are something that are not simply (IMHO) limited to physical objects - it's not for no reason that people come up with the (sickeningly romantic) phrase 'Soul-Mate'. However, I reckon there's an element of truth to it and it's not just romantic in nature (Just because you both like cute kitties on the internetz - does NOT mean you are soul mates. Rather, for liking internet cat pictures, you should both be consigned to the lowest, and most fiery level of Muspelheim available). I reckon it's more subtle than that - like the sensation that you've met somebody before and you can't remember how.

Tangent aside, I like the idea that perhaps Alpharius and Omegon were one Soul split across two bodies. Perhaps, at some point in the process of creation, the 20th Tank was damaged or malfunctioned. This damage may have resulted in the nascent Primarch zygote being split into two, with the soul being split across two bodies when they developed into embryonic forms.

I think we're well OT here...

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@Grimgold - I'd love to have a conversation with you on identity and the soul, and I even wrote out a long paragraph explaining what I thought, but ultimately I have to keep (relatively!) on-topic for the sake of other readers.

@Ynneadwraith - My bet is that the bodies are identical, with the soul split across two. Souls are something that are not simply (IMHO) limited to physical objects - it's not for no reason that people come up with the (sickeningly romantic) phrase 'Soul-Mate'. However, I reckon there's an element of truth to it and it's not just romantic in nature (Just because you both like cute kitties on the internetz - does NOT mean you are soul mates. Rather, for liking internet cat pictures, you should both be consigned to the lowest, and most fiery level of Muspelheim available). I reckon it's more subtle than that - like the sensation that you've met somebody before and you can't remember how.

Tangent aside, I like the idea that perhaps Alpharius and Omegon were one Soul split across two bodies. Perhaps, at some point in the process of creation, the 20th Tank was damaged or malfunctioned. This damage may have resulted in the nascent Primarch zygote being split into two, with the soul being split across two bodies when they developed into embryonic forms.

I think we're well OT here...

Haha this is good Dakka

Perfect example with Alpharius/Omegon

I wouldn't worry about going off topic at this point as far as i'm concerned we've sorted the original question (tau can probably be genetically altered to have more warp presence, but apart from Tzeentch the few in the galaxy who might have the know-how to even start experimenting don't have the motive). That means as a reward we can just ramble wherever the conversation takes us

Could psyker genes be related to warp exposure? Humans had been exploring the stars through warp travel for many generations before psykers began appearing amongst the population. The Tau by comparison are relatively new to warp travel technologies. Perhaps in a few dozen generations, even the Tau will begin developing a warp presence.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Could psyker genes be related to warp exposure? Humans had been exploring the stars through warp travel for many generations before psykers began appearing amongst the population. The Tau by comparison are relatively new to warp travel technologies. Perhaps in a few dozen generations, even the Tau will begin developing a warp presence.

That's an interesting notion, and could well have some validity to it as a method for naturally gaining warp connectivity (alongaide straight genetic engineering like the Eldar and Navigators).

Just to flag up one key point - tau have a weak warp presence but are not "immune" to the warp and could certainly be corrupted by any chaos power who put their mind to it.

You can, after all, corrupt totally inert objects (e.g. most daemon weapons were, at some point, just a lump of iron) - albeit that having a mortal servant involved in the process helps.

Secondly, remember that sorcery and psyker ability are similar but subtly different - a psyker uses his/her own psychic potential whilst a sorceror commands/entreats aid from bound/patron daemons and essential says "get 'im, Kevin."

The net effect -bloody huge tsunami of warpflame - is the same in both cases, but there is no absolute requirement for a sorceror to be a psyker or vice-versa. Most are,and it makes it easier,but there are means (such as ritual items and daemonic languages like enuncia) that allow non-psykers with sufficiently strong wills to do so too.

So a tau possessed or sorceror is perfectly believable,even if the initial corrupting influence probably comes from another species.